A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[Keiw]

Ah show us from the text these two different promises?
Reply's are still a tad short

Matt 5:5--who do you think this is to? Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22= the ones who will not sit on thrones beside Jesus.

 

[Keiw]

The born again are the bride of Christ.

Yes, only 144,000 of them. The rest are not born again. They are not part of the little flock-they are the great crowd of other sheep who are not of that fold. Rev 7:9, John 10:16-and get this promise from Jesus-Matt 5:5

 

[Keiw]

Well the Lake of Fire is literal and true and only a denier would ignore the fact that Gods greatest attribute is His holiness! Even before His love and mercy. God was not obligated to save anyone. He chose because He loves. Man rebelled against God not the other way around.

Lake of fire= the second death( Rev 20:14)--there is no life in death.

 

[St. SteVen]

there is no life in death.

I would say there is no death in life. Spiritual life overrides physical death.
Die physically, and what happens? Anything more? Perhaps an afterlife?
Is afterlife death? Sort of, but not really. It's LIFE after death.

Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Keiw]

I would say there is no death in life. Spiritual life overrides physical death.
Die physically, and what happens? Anything more? Perhaps an afterlife?
Is afterlife death? Sort of, but not really. It's LIFE after death.

Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Jesus likened death to sleep. One is not aware of their surroundings while asleep. The bible says--all thought stops on the day of ones death.

 

[Enoch111]

One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations.

More BALONEY. Looks like the majority of threads are full of baloney.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus likened death to sleep.

I don't recall that. Reference please, thanks.

One is not aware of their surroundings while asleep. The bible says--all thought stops on the day of ones death.

The Bible? You mean Ecclesiastes?
The physically dead know nothing, that is true.
I do not agree with unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lake of fire= the second death( Rev 20:14)--there is no life in death.

Once again you are misreading the passage. Why is it that so many who nmae the name of Jesus become lousy at grammar and forgfet all the rules of how we learn to understand what is written and spoken?

Revelation 20:14

King James Version

​

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The lake of fire is not the second death according to Gods Word! Death and the Grave being cast into teh lake of fire is the second death. there can be no other rendering of this passage if one follows the basic rules of grammar God created for us to understand what people write and say!

 

[Keiw]

I don't recall that. Reference please, thanks.

The Bible? You mean Ecclesiastes?
The physically dead know nothing, that is true.
I do not agree with unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

John 11:11.
There is no ghost like being inside of one. The breath of life gives life.

 

[Keiw]

Once again you are misreading the passage. Why is it that so many who nmae the name of Jesus become lousy at grammar and forgfet all the rules of how we learn to understand what is written and spoken?

Revelation 20:14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The lake of fire is not the second death according to Gods Word! Death and the Grave being cast into teh lake of fire is the second death. there can be no other rendering of this passage if one follows the basic rules of grammar God created for us to understand what people write and say!

The lake of fire is the second death. The resurrected ones who fall to satan once he is loosed will be destroyed= the second death. Why would God throw death and Hades( grave) into the lake of fire? They cannot suffer, they can be destroyed though. That is what fire does-destroys.

 

[St. SteVen]

John 11:11.
There is no ghost like being inside of one. The breath of life gives life.

Wow. What translation is that? ???

John 11:11 NIV
After he had said this, he went on to tell them,
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

 

[Keiw]

Wow. What translation is that? ???

John 11:11 NIV
After he had said this, he went on to tell them,
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

John 11:11 was Jesus showing death was likened to sleep. -- I was showing separate, there is no ghost like being living inside of one. The breath of life, gives one life.

 

[face2face]

Matt 5:5--who do you think this is to? Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22= the ones who will not sit on thrones beside Jesus.

Keiw, when a person is provided sound interpretation, over and over, and yet feel the need to jump to the next verse/s, it's a sign they are unable to discern the Word of God, or open it that it might give them light. I think this is the 3rd time you have avoided truth.

You do present as one who has been conditioned to JW doctrines though without understanding... Jane is certainly more versed in her teachings.

You have asked the question who is Matthew 5:5 speaking to?

Well a great example of one who was meek and humble would be Moses in Numbers 12:3 but is cognizant of all those Saints who recognize their weaknesses and are teachable as per Psa 25:8-9.

For Abraham, Isaac & Jacob and their faithful descendants the earth has long been the reward of the Saints - to rule with Christ on the Throne of David is the Hope of Israel which the Apostle Paul was bound to preach.

Again read Psalm 25:13 "inherit the land" also look up Psalm 37:11 from which the Lord Jesus Christ is directly quoting!!!!

Another lesson for you Keiw, is to always look at where the Master or Apostles are gleaning their lessons from as this will provide you further insight into the audience, in this case the Lord is referring to any and all who desire to be a Son or Daughter of God.

However, a person heart should not be set on present ownership of the land

When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you!
The wind will carry them all off,
a breath will take them away.
But he who takes refuge in me shall possess the land
and shall inherit my holy mountain. Isa 57:13.

You should also know there is no prophecy in all Scripture that teaches Heaven and being the reward for any Saint. God's plan is with the Earth - Number 14:21

Enjoy
F2F

Note: I am not sure why you included Proverbs 2:21 which says "For the upright will live in the land, and the blameless will remain in it;" as it reinforces the teaching that the meek (saints) shall inherit the land. Also, remember Davids Throne will be situated in Jerusalem which is the continuation of the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[St. Joseph]

Another wrote this and I am simply pasting it here for your cognizance.


One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations. It is often incorrectly translated to mean “eternal” when in fact it means “age.” The absurdity of this bad translation can be seen in Revelation 14:11 where the phrase “aionios aionion” which means “age of the ages” is translated as “Forever and Ever.” You cannot add anything to forever because it is already an absolute measure of time. “The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished. Those who adhere to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment cannot argue about the meaning of this word. Anyone who studies the word meanings will agree that “aion” means “age” and that there is no individual word in Greek that specifically means “eternal.” Instead, they often claim correctly that you must take the word “aion” in context in order to determine whether it means age or eternity. However, they then erroneously infer that the context within the judgment passages is obviously that of eternity. They then argue that if judgment is not eternal, then no afterlife can be eternal since the word “aion” is used in both instances. In other words, “Since “aion” is used to describe both the period of judgment and the period of reward in the same context, how can you say that punishment is temporary and reward is permanent?” The answer is simple, even though you do see punishment and reward addressed together in some verses in which the word “aion” is used for both; there are other instances in which the writers of the New Testament do speak of eternity. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of eternity ever communicated in relation to judgment. Yet, the New Testament writers do speak of eternity in other contexts. As an example, Let us look at four verses from the New Testament book of Jude. Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. The Greek word for “everlasting” used in this verse is “aidios.” It is the adjective form of the adverb “aei” meaning “always, unceasingly, perpetually or on every occasion.” From this definition, it most certainly sounds like an unending period. Even so, in this context, the word “aidios” CANNOT mean “forever.” How do I know? The message is not extremely clear in Jude 1:6. However, we have a parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:4 which says: “God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment. (CEV) In this instance, Peter is much clearer than Jude is. He gives us an ending point for how long the sinning angels will be tied up. How long will they be in chains? “Until the time of judgment” Therefore the word “everlasting” as used in Jude 1:6 CANNOT mean forever. Jude 1:7 (NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Here the word “eternal” is “aion” meaning age. An age is an indefinite period of time, which could technically mean forever or it can just refer to either a specified or an unspecified period. As we discussed earlier, we need to look at the context of the verse in order to determine whether there is anything that might indicate the duration of that age. In this case, there is. The verse states that Sodom and Gomorrah “serve as an example of those who suffer eternal fire.” Therefore, if we want to know the ultimate effect or the ultimate duration of the “eternal fire” we must turn to Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. In what way is Sodom an example? Once again, let us look at the parallel verse in Peter 2:6: “Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.” When you combine what Jude said with what Peter said, it is obvious that the fire does not burn forever. A person who believes in conditionally immortality, the view that God will destroy the ungodly rather than tormenting them, would say that in this instance, the word “aion” speaks of eternality of consequence rather than eternality of duration. In other words, “The fire was eternal in that it completely accomplished its task and could not be quenched until it was finished.” This makes a lot of sense because obviously the fire is no longer burning. However, was the fire eternal in consequence as the annihilationist claims? Ezekiel 18:53-57 (NIV) However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. “What?” “Did he just say that God will restore Sodom?” Yes he did. If Sodom is an example of the consequence of “eternal fire”, if that fire fully accomplishes its purpose as God designed it too, and if God said that He would restore Sodom, then He will also restore ALL who experience that eternal fire. Therefore, in this instance, “aion” CANNOT refer to a duration of endless torture. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. The Greek word “aionios” in this passage is adjective meaning “age during.” Young’s Literal translates the verse this way: “Yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during” Our brothers and sisters who believe in eternal conscious torment would say, since you cannot assume that “life age-during” is eternal when dealing with punishment, you also cannot assume that Christians will have eternal life either. If you are reading this verse alone in context, they are right; there is nothing in this verse that indicates eternal life. Rightly so because this verse is not about eternal life. It is about age-during life. When is age-during life? It is life in the age of ages. Remember, the age of ages will serve a specific purpose and then a new age will begin. If the writers of the New Testament had intended to communicate punishment that was eternal, could they have done so? Yes! Can we know for sure that there is such a thing as eternal life? Yes! Jude knew the difference. Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The Greek word used here is still “aion” just as it is in all of the judgement passages where its meaning is age of ages. How then can I know that this same word means “forever” in this verse? I can know because of the usage of the Greek adjective “pas” meaning “all.” In Young’s Literal, the verse reads this way: To the only wise God our Saviour, [is] glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen. All of the ages is the equivalent of forever. How was “all” used in other scriptures? John 12:32 (ESV) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself. 1 Timothy 4:10 (ESV) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe. 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) Who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Colossians 1:20 (ESV) And through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. Ephesians 1:10 (ESV) As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) Who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. Acts 3:21 (ESV) Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring ALL the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. John 17:2 (ESV) Since you have given him authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom you have given him. Titus 2:11 (ESV) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people, 1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV) When ALL things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put ALL things in subjection under him, that God may be ALL in ALL. Ephesians 1:9-10 (ESV) Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Romans 5:18 (ESV) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men. “ALL” means “ALL.” “All ages” means “all ages.” Therefore, we can know that we will have eternal life. “All men” means “all men.” Therefore, we can know that ALL will have eternal life.

That was too long and wordy for me. Like reading a book. But is the gyst of what you are saying,is that everyone including the lost will be saved in the end?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The lake of fire is the second death. The resurrected ones who fall to satan once he is loosed will be destroyed= the second death. Why would God throw death and Hades( grave) into the lake of fire? They cannot suffer, they can be destroyed though. That is what fire does-destroys.

Well maybe in your own version of the bible the lake of fire is the 2nd death. but in God's Word , and with using the grammar He created,, Death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death.

Why would God throw them? You will have to ask Him. His Word He gave us for doctrine and instruction simply says He did. He gave us no explanation why- He just did!

 

[Keiw]

Wow. What translation is that? ???

John 11:11 NIV
After he had said this, he went on to tell them,
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

John 11:11 was Jesus showing death was likened to sleep. -- I was showing separate, there is no ghost like being living inside of one. The breath of life, gives one life.

Keiw, when a person is provided sound interpretation, over and over, and yet feel the need to jump to the next verse/s, it's a sign they are unable to discern the Word of God, or open it that it might give them light. I think this is the 3rd time you have avoided truth.

You do present as one who has been conditioned to JW doctrines though without understanding... Jane is certainly more versed in her teachings.

You have asked the question who is Matthew 5:5 speaking to?

Well a great example of one who was meek and humble would be Moses in Numbers 12:3 but is cognizant of all those Saints who recognize their weaknesses and are teachable as per Psa 25:8-9.

For Abraham, Isaac & Jacob and their faithful descendants the earth has long been the reward of the Saints - to rule with Christ on the Throne of David is the Hope of Israel which the Apostle Paul was bound to preach.

Again read Psalm 25:13 "inherit the land" also look up Psalm 37:11 from which the Lord Jesus Christ is directly quoting!!!!

Another lesson for you Keiw, is to always look at where the Master or Apostles are gleaning their lessons from as this will provide you further insight into the audience, in this case the Lord is referring to any and all who desire to be a Son or Daughter of God.

However, a person heart should not be set on present ownership of the land

When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you!
The wind will carry them all off,
a breath will take them away.
But he who takes refuge in me shall possess the land
and shall inherit my holy mountain. Isa 57:13.

You should also know there is no prophecy in all Scripture that teaches Heaven and being the reward for any Saint. God's plan is with the Earth - Number 14:21

Enjoy
F2F

Note: I am not sure why you included Proverbs 2:21 which says "For the upright will live in the land, and the blameless will remain in it;" as it reinforces the teaching that the meek (saints) shall inherit the land. Also, remember Davids Throne will be situated in Jerusalem which is the continuation of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Trinity based religions tell all they are going to heaven. 144,000= the little flock( Luke 12:32)= the anointed bride of Christ will sit on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6) as kings and priests alongside of Jesus in heaven--Rev 14:3--these are bought from the earth.

 

[Keiw]

Well maybe in your own version of the bible the lake of fire is the 2nd death. but in God's Word , and with using the grammar He created,, Death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death.

Why would God throw them? You will have to ask Him. His Word He gave us for doctrine and instruction simply says He did. He gave us no explanation why- He just did!

I shared with you why--to destroy them forever.

 

[face2face]

John 11:11 was Jesus showing death was likened to sleep. -- I was showing separate, there is no ghost like being living inside of one. The breath of life, gives one life.

Trinity based religions tell all they are going to heaven. 144,000= the little flock( Luke 12:32)= the anointed bride of Christ will sit on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6) as kings and priests alongside of Jesus in heaven--Rev 14:3--these are bought from the earth.

It's clear you are not able to engage in the text which is the same as Jane btw. If you force man made notions upon it you will never come to an understanding of truth.

 

[Keiw]

It's clear you are not able to engage in the text which is the same as Jane btw. If you force man made notions upon it you will never come to an understanding of truth.

The bible aren't made made notions. All who know the true God Jehovah, know 100% his justice scales alone make eternal suffering an impossibility to be literal. He set before all-Deut 30:19--LIFE or DEATH.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's clear you are not able to engage in the text which is the same as Jane btw. If you force man made notions upon it you will never come to an understanding of truth.

This is why people hate Christians and want to have nothing to do with the church.