A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[The Learner]

bump

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Circular Reasoning. Italy is only 84% Christian (with 11% no religion). I suppose JW invoke minority rule with the above axiom.

I question whether that 84% that is said to be Christian is actually Christian.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Illogical you should stop using the faulty logic of Full text of "Weigall, Arthur The Paganism In Our Christianity"

It is known as the copy cat thesis very funny reading

Ah...resorting to internet yelling....that's not "funny", but very revealing......I feel your frustration.....I really do......it sucks trying to correct people who aren't wrong, doesn't it?

May I ask whose teachings you subscribe to Learner? Whose doctrines can we examine under a microscope with regard to your beliefs? You seem to know so much about us, one could imagine you to be an "ex", or some disgruntled soul with an axe to grind....?

The paganismm in today's "churchianity" is so obvious, I have no idea how anyone calling themselves a "Christian" can have anything to do with any of them....but that of course is a matter for the highly intelligent to make a decision about....but, then again, does God take our intellect into account? You seem to think so.....

Luke 10:21-22....
"In that very hour he [Jesus] became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. 22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”

Who has the Father revealed himself to....only Jesus knows....right? Not you....and not me.
We will all be judged by the way we judge others.....be careful.

 

[RLT63]

I wasn’t always a JW.....I chose to become one after an extensive search for answers to my Bible questions in various denominations of Christendom.....but found them to be just different versions of the same unsubstantiated guesswork, along with unwelcome traditions that crept in so long ago that no one questions them....they all claim to be right, but are clearly not following what Christ taught.

I had all the hard questions and empty theology couldn’t answer them..... but JW’s did, without once saying “I think” the Bible says “this” or “that”...they simply opened their Bible and got me to do the same....and every question was answered in context with what the Bible in its entirety, teaches.....it was one story, with one author and for the first time in my life I could see where all the pieces fit.

Most of what Christendom teaches is confused and based on supposition rather than a sound knowledge of why we are here....what went wrong....and how God gets us back to where we need to be.....and it isn’t heaven.

I smile when I see the “lone rangers” valiantly trying to convince the world that they alone have the true meaning of scripture......the devil is having a lend of those who want to believe only what they want to, without any regard for what the Creator has said from the beginning, is his purpose in putting us here on this very carefully prepared planet in the first place.

So the reason why JW’s have a different “theology” to those many denominations in Christendom, is because the “wheat and the weeds” have been separated during all these “last days”. Christendom’s doctrines have been carefully studied and found to be baseless in God’s word.....one by one, they have been summarily discarded and the truth of scripture put forward.........and so the judge of all of us is ready to send the “reapers” out to collect the “weeds” first, and to destroy them. Who are they? Time will tell. Jesus is the judge, and he doesn’t read labels......he reads hearts. They do not lie to him, they lie only to their owners, who will not know until that day, which road they have travelled.

You don’t see any similarities between the “lone rangers “ and your own denomination? You are convinced that you alone have the truth and your denomination had to write its own version of the scriptures to fit your theology. God must be incredibly cruel to let so many people be deceived and to reserve Heaven for 144,000 special JWs. I hope JWs are saved despite the error of their beliefs because the ones I know are really good people and I care about them. But I have never bought into their beliefs. I certainly don’t think that I’m the only one who has everything right and I think one day we’ll all find out we were wrong about some things.

 

[Wrangler]

No wrangler it isn't semantics and it doesn't mean the same thing You're just showing another example of how you will twist the scriptures for your own personal benefit.

Projecting. You are the ones twisting Scripture.

If the lord did not mean ‘make disciples of all nations’, I doubt he would have used that phrae. I believe if the lord meant merely ‘people in different nations’ he has the capacity to express that distinction.

 

[DavidB]

It doesn’t change our mission. You seem content to forsake those our lord commanded us to reach by becoming ‘all things to all people’ so that some may be saved.

Should you become an adulterer so you can save adulterers? A thief to save thieves? A child molester to save child molesters? Build a golden calf and practice idolatry to save idolaters? Teach the trinity to save trinitarians?

 

[Wrangler]

Whose doctrines can we examine under a microscope with regard to your beliefs?

That’s a good point AJ. No one should doubt JW gets more scrutiny here than all other denominations combined.

Also, the JW’s on CyB have handled themselves with dignity, patience and answered very thoughtfully and thoroughly. I wonder how others would react to such testing?

 

[Wrangler]

Should you become an adulterer so you can save adulterers? A thief to save thieves? A child molester to save child molesters? Build a golden calf and practice idolatry to save idolaters? Teach the trinity to save trinitarians?

Maybe the others but certainly not the last one.

Seriously, equating deliberately going against God’s expressed and explicit will with celebrating birthday’s and other cultural traditions?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Of course it is! For some reason, you are attempting to parse the people from their nation. The nation of Israel is nothing without the people of Israel. They are synonyms.

It is the people in all nations who are to become disciples of the Christ....that is NOT the same as saying nations would be made disciples as a collective. Acts 10:34-35 made that clear.....again you seem to ignore what you don't want to see.

A true Christian is a citizen of God's Kingdom, and no nation on earth can claim our allegiance over God's Kingdom. No Christian can disobey the Christ by altering his teachings to suit themselves....or to serve their nation's patriotism.

Maybe you are attempting to truly parse people from their government?

We have to be 'separate from the world' because Jesus told us to be.....how else can we do that unless we stand back from human agendas and occupations where a Christian has no business. We can be law-abiding citizens in whatever nation we occupy, but the world does not own us....Jehovah does.

A cursory examination of the 10 Commandments shows its connection to government. Don’t murder, steal or ‘bear false witness,’ which means perjury, NOT a general prohibition against lying. ‘So help you God’ is in the context of court, telling the truth and not taking the LORD’s name in vain.

You seem to forget that no other nation on earth was given the Ten Commandments....or any of the other laws that God imposed on his people.....which they willingly vowed to uphold. Sadly, they never did for long.
God was their King and law giver....and rightly so as their rightful Sovereign, his laws surpassed any law of any nation...should we now give him any less?

The words "so help me God" with a hand on a Bible is absolutely meaningless in a world where legal representatives are not interested in justice. They are only interested in winning a case and it doesn't seem to matter if their client is guilty or innocent....getting them off their charge is a victory 'feather in their cap'.

Watched a World Cup game the other day. One of the nations flag seemed familiar. Do you suppose the people of this nation are Muslim or Hindu or Taoist? Or do you suppose one cannot tell anything about the people of this nation in looking at the nations flag?

And can you tell me where flags are any part of a Christian's obligation to God?
Did you know that saluting a flag is classed as an act of worship....which is why we will never do it.....and national anthems are hymns in honor of a single nation...? We wont sing them either. Our separation from the world is as complete as we can scripturally make it.

I don't think you have any idea where your beliefs and attitudes originated, or how deeply the tentacles of satan's world rulership, has reached.

Anyone can put a cross on something and declare it to be "Christian".....but where did that cross come from, and who instituted it as a symbol for Christianity? Do you know? Does it matter?



There it is....but what do you see there? You see it being used as a banner under which to kill and to conquer....and who began to use it? A pagan emperor....are you getting the message yet Wrangler? Constantine was a worshipper of Zeus until the day he died. He is the one who instituted the cross as a religious symbol of conquest so that his "Christian" soldiers would have God on their side....and win his battles for him.

No Christian is commanded to shed blood.....they are commanded to "love" their enemies....not to kill them. (Matthew 5:43-44)
Had true Christianity survived for longer than the first century, none of that could have taken place...and we wouldn't be having this conversation.....yet it was all prophesied.....the weeds were sown and the harvest time is upon us....we know how this ends.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You don’t see any similarities between the “lone rangers “ and your own denomination?

No....and I'll tell you why....we had no "lone rangers"...there was no one man (or woman) who said...”I believe I am a prophet, and so what I tell you, must be true”.
It was a group of men who came together from different denominations with one agenda...and that was to study God's word and to compare Christendom's doctrines with the Bible to see if there was scriptural support for what they had been teaching people to believe for hundreds of years.
These wiped the slate clean and started from scratch to evaluate what the Bible's overall message was.....it turned out to be quite a journey of discovery.

You are convinced that you alone have the truth and your denomination had to write its own version of the scriptures to fit your theology.

I am convinced that the words of Daniel 12:4, 9-10 have been fulfilled.
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. . . . He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand."

Daniel's prophesies would not be understood until "the time of the end"....where we find ourselves right now and have been since the year 1914 CE.

God would grant previously not understood knowledge, to "many"......and he said they would "purify themselves" (getting rid of filth) and make themselves white (removing the resulting stains) and "be refined" which we know means removing impurities. All three of these activities are processes, so time was needed to implement needed changes to what had become a sham religion...Christendom, one based on lies and human traditions rooted in paganism.

God's worship was to have a complete overhaul at this time, and Jesus himself said he was going to appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his fellow slaves "their food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) True to his word, by the time Jesus returned in 1914, he found that slave already at work, doing what he had commanded. Their cleansing and refining had begun, but a complete cleansing would take time and much prayerful study. Meanwhile the disciples, armed with this new knowledge began to spread it to anyone who would listen, and even after a short time thousands were attending the congregation meetings of the Bible Students, as they called themselves then.

The reason why a new translation was deemed necessary was because the new enlightenment revealed how bias had crept into Bible translation very early in the piece and these were carefully studied and more accurate translation rendered in line with what all of scripture taught.....i.e. the existence of a monotheistic deity.....who had a name...and who brought forth a son, who was to become the savior of the world....not the whole world, but a savior of those who took the trouble to get to know the God of Jesus Christ, revealed in his personality and activities.

God must be incredibly cruel to let so many people be deceived and to reserve Heaven for 144,000 special JWs.

The 144,000 are the elect and since these began to be chosen in the first century, with the apostles forming the very foundation stones of the Kingdom of God in heaven, we do not believe that this group are exclusively "Jehovah's Witnesses" as the world knows them today. But all of Christ's disciples are Jehovah's Witnesses, including Jesus. (Revelation 3:14) To be a "witness" means to give testimony and that is exactly what we do...like no others in the world. The reason being that Jesus said he would back this work that he commanded to be done as part of the "sign" he gave regarding the "last days of the present system, or age. (Matthew 24:3-14)

Was God "incredibly cruel" when he brought the world of Noah's day to an end? Were those people deceived? Noah tried to warn them but they failed to take any notice of him. He was just a silly old man building an enormous structure out in the middle of a cleared field. No one took him seriously....UNTIL....what he declared to them, started to happen......but then we can imagine those pounding on the side of the ark as the waters swirled around them....they believed him now...but too late. God closed the door of the ark....not Noah.
Why would Jesus use that scenario to picture his return? (Matthew 24:37-39) How are we in a similar period now?

I hope JWs are saved despite the error of their beliefs because the ones I know are really good people and I care about them.

I assure you they will feel the same way about you.....but it is God who draws people to his truth...not any human. The truth that is preached is the way God determines what is in the heart. People will get no other testimony. (Matthew 24:14) No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) All we can offer is the information...the rest is up to the person receiving it.....and Jehovah. (1 Cor 3:5-9)

But I have never bought into their beliefs. I certainly don’t think that I’m the only one who has everything right and I think one day we’ll all find out we were wrong about some things.

Its about being wrong in the important areas.....like who God is.....who Jesus is....and what God's Kingdom is....because that is all part of the message. What it means to be baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit" determines whether we have the truth about those three necessary elements in our lives, that lead us to baptism.
And what it means to BE a Christian in our every day life.

 

[RLT63]

No....and I'll tell you why....we had no "lone rangers"...there was no one man (or woman) who said...”I believe I am a prophet, and so what I tell you, must be true”.
It was a group of men who came together from different denominations with one agenda...and that was to study God's word and to compare Christendom's doctrines with the Bible to see if there was scriptural support for what they had been teaching people to believe for hundreds of years.
These wiped the slate clean and started from scratch to evaluate what the Bible's overall message was.....it turned out to be quite a journey of discovery.

I am convinced that the words of Daniel 12:4, 9-10 have been fulfilled.
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. . . . He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand."

Daniel's prophesies would not be understood until "the time of the end"....where we find ourselves right now and have been since the year 1914 CE.

God would grant previously not understood knowledge, to "many"......and he said they would "purify themselves" (getting rid of filth) and make themselves white (removing the resulting stains) and "be refined" which we know means removing impurities. All three of these activities are processes, so time was needed to implement needed changes to what had become a sham religion...Christendom, one based on lies and human traditions rooted in paganism.

God's worship was to have a complete overhaul at this time, and Jesus himself said he was going to appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his fellow slaves "their food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) True to his word, by the time Jesus returned in 1914, he found that slave already at work, doing what he had commanded. Their cleansing and refining had begun, but a complete cleansing would take time and much prayerful study. Meanwhile the disciples, armed with this new knowledge began to spread it to anyone who would listen, and even after a short time thousands were attending the congregation meetings of the Bible Students, as they called themselves then.

The reason why a new translation was deemed necessary was because the new enlightenment revealed how bias had crept into Bible translation very early in the piece and these were carefully studied and more accurate translation rendered in line with what all of scripture taught.....i.e. the existence of a monotheistic deity.....who had a name...and who brought forth a son, who was to become the savior of the world....not the whole world, but a savior of those who took the trouble to get to know the God of Jesus Christ, revealed in his personality and activities.

The 144,000 are the elect and since these began to be chosen in the first century, with the apostles forming the very foundation stones of the Kingdom of God in heaven, we do not believe that this group are exclusively "Jehovah's Witnesses" as the world knows them today. But all of Christ's disciples are Jehovah's Witnesses, including Jesus. (Revelation 3:14) To be a "witness" means to give testimony and that is exactly what we do...like no others in the world. The reason being that Jesus said he would back this work that he commanded to be done as part of the "sign" he gave regarding the "last days of the present system, or age. (Matthew 24:3-14)

Was God "incredibly cruel" when he brought the world of Noah's day to an end? Were those people deceived? Noah tried to warn them but they failed to take any notice of him. He was just a silly old man building an enormous structure out in the middle of a cleared field. No one took him seriously....UNTIL....what he declared to them, started to happen......but then we can imagine those pounding on the side of the ark as the waters swirled around them....they believed him now...but too late. God closed the door of the ark....not Noah.
Why would Jesus use that scenario to picture his return? (Matthew 24:37-39) How are we in a similar period now?


I assure you they will feel the same way about you.....but it is God who draws people to his truth...not any human. The truth that is preached is the way God determines what is in the heart. People will get no other testimony. (Matthew 24:14) No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) All we can offer is the information...the rest is up to the person receiving it.....and Jehovah. (1 Cor 3:5-9)

Its about being wrong in the important areas.....like who God is.....who Jesus is....and what God's Kingdom is....because that is all part of the message. What it means to be baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit" determines whether we have the truth about those three necessary elements in our lives, that lead us to baptism.
And what it means to BE a Christian in our every day life.

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Projecting. You are the ones twisting Scripture.

If the lord did not mean ‘make disciples of all nations’, I doubt he would have used that phrae. I believe if the lord meant merely ‘people in different nations’ he has the capacity to express that distinction.

The majority of the people didn't believe the truth during Noah's day The majority didn't believe the truth when God used angels to inspect Sodom and Gomorrah, the majority of the Jews didn't believe Jesus or the apostles, that's why the Jews killed Jesus is because the majority of the jews didn't believe Jesus, and that's why the nations persecuted the apostles and disciples of Jesus is because the majority didn't believe them. Just as the majority didn't believe the truth during those days the majority are not believing the truth today.

 

[The Learner]

You don’t see any similarities between the “lone rangers “ and your own denomination? You are convinced that you alone have the truth and your denomination had to write its own version of the scriptures to fit your theology. God must be incredibly cruel to let so many people be deceived and to reserve Heaven for 144,000 special JWs. I hope JWs are saved despite the error of their beliefs because the ones I know are really good people and I care about them. But I have never bought into their beliefs. I certainly don’t think that I’m the only one who has everything right and I think one day we’ll all find out we were wrong about some things.

Big Smile,

Revelation 14
English Standard Version
The Lamb and the 144,000
14 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

Revelation 7:4-8
English Standard Version
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

The 144,000 are Single Jewish Male Virgins. I doubt, any of the special JW's are such.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And Wiki is such a reliable source of information.....

Seriously, it is apparent that people will put faith in anything that they want to believe is true. They allow the opinions of others to sway them.
Look where it got Jesus......killed. That didn’t make him wrong though did it? The majority believed the wrong information from the wrong people and they paid the price.

History is repeating but like the days of Noah, (Matt 24:37-39)....no one is taking notice of the right people because the devil will never allow them to have 'good press'....they look like fools.

We will all know, soon enough....but our eternal future is at stake.....so we had better be sure that we are not among the “many” who receive Jesus’ rejection at the judgment to come......from what Jesus says to them, they are the last to know. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

WE NEED TO RETURN to the original
pattern set to us in the HOLY SCRIPS , while we got time to do so .
IF we want folks saved , THEN tell the world about JESUS . IF we want many who calls themselves christain
then make sure they follow THE JESUS and not some other jesus created of men .

I couldn't agree more.....the trouble is, many are searching for a diamond in a pile of broken glass.....but don't we have to ask, "who broke the glass?"

 

[Aunty Jane]

Big Smile,

bigger smile....

The 144,000 are Single Jewish Male Virgins. I doubt, any of the special JW's are such.

You crack me up .....if that is the case, then you just ruled out some of the apostles, who were married men....not to mention those who not only had wives, but large families.
Are you yourself a single male Jewish virgin?

The "virginity" is spiritual you see....they are not 'in bed' with God's enemies, adopting false religious beliefs, celebrating pagan festivals, and honoring false gods with the same customs as the ancient originals. Unlike natural Israel, they have remained spiritually "pure" in God's eyes.

 

[RLT63]

bigger smile....

You crack me up .....if that is the case, then you just ruled out some of the apostles, who were married men....not to mention those who not only had wives, but large families.
Are you yourself a single male Jewish virgin?

The "virginity" is spiritual you see....they are not 'in bed' with God's enemies, adopting false religious beliefs, celebrating pagan festivals, and honoring false gods with the same customs as the ancient originals. Unlike natural Israel, they have remained spiritually "pure" in God's eyes.

It’s clear they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

 

[Wrangler]

And can you tell me where flags are any part of a Christian's obligation to God?

Not really an answer to my simple question. It seems the simple questions trip you up. Implied is that the flag in question invokes a nation's allegience to Christianity.

See how you changed the subject from nation, which is from the Great Commission to an individual person?

 

[amigo de christo]

I couldn't agree more.....the trouble is, many are searching for a diamond in a pile of broken glass.....but don't we have to ask, "who broke the glass?"

Russell nash didnt find the diamond . Anyone can come along and try and bring a new bible .
The jews copied torah faithfully . GOD had it . YET with many he was not well pleased .
WELL ROME is a monster , and even though it did have the scriptures , IT DIDNT FOLLOW CHRIST NOR GOD
NOR the apostles it claimed . IF we read the BIBLE we know TRUTH from what is false .
By grace i do know truth . You dont see me telling folks the KJV is bad , here let me write you a new bible .
Nash was as bad if not worse than ellen white . Joseph smith was as bad if not worse than them all .
The jw has been decieved . YEt they know not they have been .
But so too with the catholic , with the mormon and my goodness with a number so high even within the protestant realm .
MY SUGGESTION IS , PICK up the bible and learn for thyself . PS the KJV aint so hard to understand as folks make it out to be
There are trillions upon trillions of pieces of broken glass , You wont find the diamond amongst the shards .
IT is not hard to find , IT WILL FIND YOU , IF ONLY , IF ONLY one hardnes not their heart as a diamond .
THE LORD is not hard to find , TRUTH IS HE FOUND ME while i was lost in darkness and HE LED ME OUT
of darkness and into His marvelous light . I WISH ONLY the same for all . BUT we got to stop trusting in men
and start learning for ourselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

It’s clear they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

they are the true jews . THEY BELIEVE IN JESUS . they were born a jew , but then TRULY REBORN in CHRIST as a true jew .
DONT let the JWS or any other fool ya . THEY were never born a gentile . THEY are OF THE TWELVE TRIBES
THEY are men , they are virgins and they follow the Lamb .
Dont let the jws fool ya . That religoin began with the mindset they alone were the one hundred and forty four thousand .
WHEN numbers began to surpass that , THE claim became they were AMONGST THE JWS
Like any other false religion its easy to expose . They wont even do the communion . YEAH
they wont even do the communion , they say tis only for the one hundred and forty four thousand .
A concept JESUS NEVER TAUGHT , a concept the apostels never taught . TIME TO OPEN BIBLES
and learn for ourselves . too many false men , too many decievers have taken the reigns of christendom
and are making false converts . IT is not looking good at all in this day and age .
So many are now becoming one again with all faiths and even all religoins . THE GRAND and FINAL DELUSION
has struck the land . YET MANY CALL IT LOVE < UNITY , LET US BE ONE , LET US HAVE OUR ONE WORLD PEACE and SAFETY .
THEY GOING RIGHT UNDER THE DRAGON in this final last hour delusion . YET they call it love , tolerance
bridge builders , abraham accord , all inclusive . The last hour delusion has struck the land
and many are going right into its false love we are one , lets hug and by golly have us some unity .