A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Wrangler]

One cannot do the opposite of Gods will to please men.

Celebrating birthdays is not against Gods will.

You’ve been asked point blank to produce a verse prohibiting it. All you got is Poisoning The Well. If a bad guy brushed his teeth, it does not make brushing teeth inherently evil.

If teeth brushing began as a Pagan ritual, it does not make it demonic.

 

[Keiw]

Celebrating birthdays is not against Gods will.

You’ve been asked point blank to produce a verse prohibiting it. All you got is Poisoning The Well. If a bad guy brushed his teeth, it does not make brushing teeth inherently evil.

If teeth brushing began as a Pagan ritual, it does not make it demonic.

2 examples of birthday celebrations in bible. John the baptist lost his head for one of them-- its what the wicked practice- promotion of self. The righteous disown self to follow Jesus- Mark 8:34

 

[Aunty Jane]

Celebrating birthdays is not against Gods will.

You’ve been asked point blank to produce a verse prohibiting it. All you got is Poisoning The Well. If a bad guy brushed his teeth, it does not make brushing teeth inherently evil.

If teeth brushing began as a Pagan ritual, it does not make it demonic.

Not a good argument Wrangler....
Birthdays are not in the Bible because the Jews did not celebrate them based on Deuteronomy 18:9-12....
"When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

The practice of divination or prediction was associated with horoscopes which were cast on the day of a child's birth to foretell their future. Cakes with burning tapers were used to drive off evil spirits....and the birthday 'wishes' were to bring the child good luck.

God's people were told NOT to imitate the practices of the pagans that were occupying the Promised Land...it was because of these evil practices that God was going to drive them away.

Only two birthday celebrations are mentioned in the Bible, (Pharaoh of Egypt, and King Herod) neither of whom were worshippers of Jehovah.....and someone lost their life on the whim of the ruler whose birthday was being celebrated....you know how and why John the Baptist was put to death.....?

Seriously you think this is on a par with brushing your teeth?

 

[Wrangler]

2 examples of birthday celebrations in bible.

And no verse where God prohibited it.

 

[Wrangler]

Not a good argument Wrangler....
Birthdays are not in the Bible because the Jews did not celebrate them based on Deuteronomy 18:9-12....

Well, we all understand you don’t think it is a good argument. And I agree that a command from God to do a thing is a stronger argument than the absence of a prohibition against a thing. Yet, there it is.

I suppose it is a question of liberty. Are we only allowed to do what we are specifically authorized to do? Or do we have the freedom in Christ to do anything not prohibited?

For instance, do you believe people who celebrate birthdays do so out of love for the person whose birthday it is or out of malevolence?

Regarding what Jews do, we are not Jews. So, their cultural norms are not authoritative to other cultures. For instance, they practice circumcision but gentiles do not.

 

[Wrangler]

Seriously you think this is on a par with brushing your teeth?

Yes. If anything, brushing one’s teeth is even more significant of non-biblically authorized action since it is done daily while celebrating a birthday is only done annually.

While you are quick to judge my argument as weak, you fail to acknowledge the weakness of your own arguments.

1. It’s not prohibited in the New Covenant. Therefore, it is allowed.
2. Celebrating someone’s life is NOT a form of worship.
3. The laws and customs of the Jewish people are not binding on Gentiles.
4. To influence people, you have to meet them where they are. This is why Scripture says to be ‘all things to all people by which some may be saved.’ Denying this is why you ignored my question; is it better to Paganize Christian customs or Christianize Pagan customs?
5. Cultural appropriation, which we’ve talked about many times is a thing. And the NT precedent is in Gentile Christian’s being allowed to eat certain foods AND not get circumcised. That is, keep their customs.

Like the uncircumcised Gentile Christian’s of Biblical times, modern Christian’s in the West exist in a culture that has appropriated various customs from various cultures. It no longer matters what the origins are; we’ve made it our own and most people neither know nor care about history.

Today in the West, Easter, Christmas and Halloween are fun events where kids get candy and gifts. But your opposition is more morose than all of this! You oppose celebrating life of others - on the oppressive principle of not displaying love of others. Again I ask, do you think people celebrate birthdays is done out of love for that person or out of some malevolence?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He showed by the only 2 examples in the bible by the wicked doing it. The wicked are the world, Jesus said to be no part of.

The wicked drive cares and eat food also. should we refrain from that because the wicked do it to? C'mon man if there is no prohibition for or against- it is up to an individuals conscience before God. when you judge someone for celebrating a birthday- you are guilty of judging another person servant!

 

[ElieG12]

Birthdays have been celebrated among nations for thousands of years. However, in the Bible there is not even a mention of a birthday that was celebrated by a servant of God.

If a birthday were a celebration accepted by God, wouldn't we know from the Bible the exact day of Jesus' birth?

Jehovah's Witnesses are not concerned with what the world celebrates, but with what pleases God or not. If you are not one of the Jehovah's Witness in the world, what do you care about what we do?

 

[Aunty Jane]

And no verse where God prohibited it.

You were shown where God’s people were prohibited from adopting the practices of the pagans.....does God change? The Bible says he never does, so what gives you the impression that he has?

I suppose it is a question of liberty. Are we only allowed to do what we are specifically authorized to do? Or do we have the freedom in Christ to do anything not prohibited?

After the incident with the golden calf, Jehovah did not permit Israel to celebrate any event without his express permission and with every detail stipulated by him. Israel were not permitted to make up their own festivals no matter how “nice” it might have seemed to them. In this way Jehovah sought to reinforce the fact that humans are not good judges of what is “good and what is evil” as they have demonstrated right from the beginning.

For instance, do you believe people who celebrate birthdays do so out of love for the person whose birthday it is or out of malevolence?

What a dumb question Wrangler....seriously....it’s the very reason why humans can justify what God forbids...in their eyes they are expressing love and giving gifts to the one whose birthday they are celebrating......but can you tell me how many parents have been embarrassed and disturbed by the selfishness expressed by their own children at their birthday parties? Or the disappointment expressed by these ungrateful children when a gift was not up to expectation?

Anything that makes any individual the “special one” is not promoting humility, it violates the scriptural admonition to be givers rather than receivers, and it promotes selfishness.
I cringe when I hear people say......”you can get me that for my birthday.....mother’s day....Christmas”...

JW’s do not need a birthday or any other occasion to give gifts to their children or loved ones....nor do they need a special occasion to hold a children’s party, where no one is the “special” one because all in attendance are equally “special”.
You act as if there is deprivation when the opposite is true. Why do people need an excuse or a date on a calendar, to give gifts to the people they love? Or to hold family gatherings?

I’ll give you an example of my own son when he was still at school, when he brought a newly acquired gift to show his friends. Their first question was “what did you get that for, is it your birthday?” When told that his parents had bought it for him because they wanted to, because we don’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas......one child’s response was telling. He said “if we didn’t have birthdays and Christmas, we wouldn’t get anything”. Do you see the problem? Gift giving has to have an “occasion”....is that what should motivate giving? Doesn’t the commercial world cash in on what the programmed masses do mindlessly?
They are emotionally blackmailed into “giving” because the commercial world always benefits.

Regarding what Jews do, we are not Jews. So, their cultural norms are not authoritative to other cultures. For instance, they practice circumcision but gentiles do not.

This was nothing to do with cultural norms.....God’s express commands are violated in their adoption of pagan celebrations and customs. They were told NOT to do what the pagans did.
Circumcision was commanded for Jews but those who became Jewish proselytises also had to be circumcised.

Like the uncircumcised Gentile Christian’s of Biblical times, modern Christian’s in the West exist in a culture that has appropriated various customs from various cultures. It no longer matters what the origins are; we’ve made it our own and most people neither know nor care about history.

We’ve talked about this before....there is no such thing in the Bible......for both Jews and Christians their separation from what the pagans commonly practiced was what made them different....separated from what the world was doing.

You oppose celebrating life of others - on the oppressive principle of not displaying love of others. Again I ask, do you think people celebrate birthdays is done out of love for that person or out of some malevolence?

No Wrangler, that is ridiculous. I personally have no horses in this race. From my viewpoint I see clearly a line of demarcation in these issues, whereas the line is blurred purposely in Christendom so that the point of separation is ambiguous and based on personal choice...that is not what the Bible teaches. Right from the beginning the devil has tried to subvert the faith of those who wanted to worship Jehovah by suggesting that he didn’t really say, what he said.

All I am doing is setting the record straight so that those who want to justify anything at all, can re-evaluate their position based on what the scriptures teach.....not on what they can personally justify.

 

[Wrangler]

If you are not one of the Jehovah's Witness in the world, what do you care about what we do?

If you are not one of the Jehovah's Witness in the world, what do you care about what we do?

Probably has something to do with slandering fellow Christians who celebrate birthdays as being true demon worshipers.

 

[Keiw]

And no verse where God prohibited it.

Disown self-to follow Jesus-Mark 8:34--Birthdays promote-self.

 

[Keiw]

The wicked drive cares and eat food also. should we refrain from that because the wicked do it to? C'mon man if there is no prohibition for or against- it is up to an individuals conscience before God. when you judge someone for celebrating a birthday- you are guilty of judging another person servant!

I just shared what the bible shows on the matter. A follower of Jesus-disowns self( Mark 8:34)--birthday celebrations-promote self=just the opposite.

 

[Wrangler]

You were shown where God’s people were prohibited from adopting the practices of the pagans.....does God change?

That covenant does not apply to us and was replaced by a better one that made the old obsolete.

 

[Wrangler]

What a dumb question Wrangler....seriously....it’s the very reason why humans can justify what God forbids.

Again, God does not forbid us celebrating birthdays. You know the OT covenant does not apply to us.

Obviously, you don’t want to answer the question of what is the motivation people have to celebrate the life of one by celebrating their birthday: love or malevolence. This reveals you know the truth - which DOES comply with Gods command that applies to us.

 

[Keturah]

Circular reasoning w/o foundation on unscriptural matters............only fodder for the bizarre obscene CULTS !

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again, God does not forbid us celebrating birthdays. You know the OT covenant does not apply to us.

It would mean that God has abandoned his own standards. If he told the Israelites NOT to adopt pagan religious practices what makes you think he has changed his mind about that? There are no Jewish or Christian birthdays ever mentioned in the Bible....and we know why.

What did Paul write....again...? This is directed to Christians, don't forget....
2 Cor 6:14-18...
"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”

17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

If that is somehow an obscure statement, then I have no idea how your comprehension works....

Obviously, you don’t want to answer the question of what is the motivation people have to celebrate the life of one by celebrating their birthday: love or malevolence. This reveals you know the truth - which DOES comply with Gods command that applies to us.

Motivation can be based on the wrong understanding of something. Think about Christ's command to 'love our enemies' e.g. (Matt 5:43-44)....and then think of the indoctrination of patriotic sentiment that has been sounded into people since childhood in many nations, so that skewed motivation can make a person justify hating their enemies and wanting to kill them....using all manner of heinous weaponry.

Paul backed that up too....
"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Do you see that word, "therefore" in both of those scriptures? God's word states the actions and also states the reasons for them.
Justification is so easy when you want to continue doing something that you don't want to acknowledge is wrong.

 

[Titus]

The righteous disown self to follow Jesus- Mark 8:34

In the JW religion, self is confused with selfishness.
I dont like people making a fuss over me on my birthday because I know I am nothing great.

But am I being selfish when I celebrate my birthday?
Birthdays in my family has mostly always been about my parents celebrating their children's birth.
I dont know any Christian that is so selfishly thinking about how much stuff and attention he/she can get for self on birthdays.
Birthdays are not spiritualized as being a religious practice, or bound as something that is an ordinance of God.
It is a secular celebration of ones birth.
This in and of itself does not make it a selfish act.

Matthew 16:24,
-Then Jesus said to His disciples, if anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Are we putting self over Jesus by celebrating our birthdate?
Is this an act of selfishness?

I've had birthdays were I was physically sick with flu, my birthday is December 8 during cold and flu season.
My parents(especially my wonderful Christian Mother) loves to let her children know just how much she loves us, how much she loved playing the part of bringing us into the world( for hope of eternal life with God of course).

Based in knowing how much my parents love to show me their love for me, when I feel terrible and would much rather ignore my birthday I go along with the celebration because OF THEM NOT FOR MYSELF!!!

I've had a number of birthdays where I hid what i really wanted to do was stay home and not go out to eat with family. All because i know my family will have a good time.
I put others over self on my birthday.
I make sure my Parents get the first choice on what part of cake they want.

I make sure to entertain my family as much as they try to entertain me.
I make sure to clean the dishes after the part and help my mother tidy up the house.

I return the love my family shows towards me and try to give back more than I received.

Jesus is teaching we must give up the selfish desires of the flesh that is SINFUL desires.
If we are to truly follow after Him.
Deny self and follow Christ is to obey the Lords commandments, John 14:15,
- If you love Me keep My commandments
- If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word....
Having birthdays is not breaking Gods commandments and practicing willful sin. One is still denying self when celebrating birthdays.
Nor is birthdays a pagan religious practice. I guess some pagan could make it so, but not so in my Christian family.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I just shared what the bible shows on the matter. A follower of Jesus-disowns self( Mark 8:34)--birthday celebrations-promote self=just the opposite.

That still doesn't make a birthday siful.

Jesus also told His disciples to not have an extra pair of shoes or an extra cloak. Are you disobedient and sinning here with 2 coats and more than one pair of shoes? He also said take no money bag with you. What's in your wallet?????????

If a celebration is one huge ego trip- it is wrong. but if it is given in love by people who love another, to thank god for the day they were born and celebrate that day- nothing wrong. we are to esteem and love others. try esteeming others instead of running them down through man made rules and regulations like the Pharisees of old did.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Disown self-to follow Jesus-Mark 8:34--Birthdays promote-self.

So you do not believe in esteeming others? WOW how sad! for trhat is a biblical command. And self doesn't throw a borthday party. Others do to esteem a person and hopefully thank god for their birth and life! Just like a retirement party or wjhen the Jews celebrated a bar or bat mitzvah!

Romans 14

King James Version

​

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

If you in conscience before God wish not to celebrate birthdays, fine! I defend that! but don't you dare judge another for doing so in good conscience befre God and sin a grievous sin!

 

[Wrangler]

Why do people need an excuse or a date on a calendar, to give gifts to the people they love?

Friend, the only need is liberty. Even Bibles are given on an occasion recorded inside.

I like to tell people I got my wife a matching watch on the occasion of our wedding.