A Simple Question To The Forum About Getting Into The Kingdom Of God.

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Duckybill

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At the same time, isn't it amazing how correctly he was able to state that last comment if one reads nothing else into it! That to me evidences that the Holy Spirit is working on him and nudging him ever so slowly the right direction, limited only by his own stubbornness. We all have to resist that same stubbornness in ourselves. So it is nothing abnormal but actually common to we in this imperfect flesh.
Perhaps, but it is my experience that those who are vehement in forcing THE LAW on everyone don't change. Yes, Paul did, but it was God's purpose to give us nearly half of the NT through Paul.
That is why I made it a point to specify that the Ten Commandments were given written in stone like the stone hearts of sinful mankind. Comparatively, the scriptures also tell us that God would write his Law into the stone-like hearts of man. And since it was only the Ten Commandments that were written in stone and which are an encapsulation of God's eternal Law, it stands to reason that the rest of the Mosaic Law which was not written into stone by God is not what God is writing to men's hearts.
If the whole Law was written in stone then God would have used Sampson maybe. Can't you just see Sampson hauling around the entire Law written on stone : )? But you make an interesting point.
As this comparison continues on in the scriptures we are told that the Word of God is alive and exerts power. As God writes his Law of love into man's heart it therefore begins to change the man's heart. Then, as we heard God promise that he would take away their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh, it begins to happen.
Which is quite possible for God to do.
Therefore we can afford to be very patience with others as we see that all we do is sow seeds of truth and do a bit of watering but God is the one that is making it grow. Paul elaborated that, I think it was in 1 Corinthians chapter 4.

It is actually fascinating once we become aware of this process that we can look around and see it happening in others, even as it did for our self.
Personally I never believed I had to keep THE LAW, but folks like Eccl do open the door for discussion which may very well be God's purpose to set some free, totally from the bondage of THE LAW.
That wisdom of our Father is truly something to rejoice about. It becomes part of the things unseen that we are to keep our eyes fixed upon lest we forget the appearance of our own face in the mirror of his word.

I did not elaborate with many scripture citations thus far here as I want these words of truth to flex your recall of those scriptures for your self. I believe you already are familiar with them and it will be more powerful for me to trust in and merely supplement the work of the Holy Spirit in you.

Paul describes the eternal Law of God's love for us in many places but I think most detailed at 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 "Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."

The Mosaic Law given through Moses was written by the hand of flesh to govern the flesh. Not so the Ten Commandments which were first written by God's finger and later shown to be required for man to copy when Moses had to remake the tablets of stone.
Actually the Big Ten were at the heart of THE LAW of Moses.
Whenever Paul said, as he did many times, "love is the law's fulfillment", we should think of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 as how Paul defines that love.

The Mosaic Law written by fleshly hands
???
(even though guided by God's Spirit) to the flesh of men was not written to "beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things". It was written not to bear the sin of men but to expose that sin and thus make it appear exceedingly sinful. And it was written to punish that sin and any who would refuse to repent it. Again, I think you know where the scriptures are that tell us all of this.

But that is why the entire Law given through Moses with the exception of the Ten Commandments was nailed with Christ Jesus in order to free us from the penalty it demanded upon us. And when we again try to enliven any small part of it we enliven the penalty also that it called for.

It is one thing to get circumcised out of love's effort to not stumble another person from listening to us, as Paul did Timothy at Acts 16:3, but it is entirely another thing to perform the acts of that Mosaic Law thinking that to do so renders us more pleasing to God, for that demonstrates that we are yet stuck in a mind-set of trying to please God with works by our corrupt flesh, rather than concentrating on cleansing the inside of the cup and platter that the outside also become clean. Matthew 23:26
Actually I've seen little sign that Eccl is changing his stance on THE LAW Vs Grace. But we can hope. I don't think you and I are in complete agreement about the Big Ten, but who is?
 

Eccl.12:13

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Complete and utter suppisiton. You can only make sense of these passages in this manner because you are starting from a faulty premise in the beginning.

You try and brush this off as done, but you haven't ONCE addressed any of the biblical responses given to you. You are wrong Ecc, and your ideas are pure heresy against the love and sacrifice of Jesus. You will not earn your way into heaven...as we've pointed out before...all your "keeping the law" will be presented to God as dog crap or filthy rags. That sounds harsh, but the Bible clearly tells us that. You are hurting yourself deeply by clinging to your need to be relgious.

Here is yet another simple question;

Are we to do our best not to have repsect of persons?

I'll make this easy for you guys since you seem to have such a hard time with 'yes' and 'no' questions. I'll go first.....

I say "YES"! We are to do our best not to have respect of persons. See how easy that was.

Now it's you guys turn, "Are we to do our best not to have respect of persons, yes or no?"


Now along those same lines,

Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to covet?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to fornicate?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to worship idols?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to be adulterers?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to abuse themselves with mankind?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to steal?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to murder?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to extort?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to be revilers?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to be drunkards?

Now do you think Paul stopped there?

Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to lie?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to treat their parents bad?
Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to have respect of persons?

Bottom line; Do you think Paul advised those he taught not to SIN?

Well.....God's word says YES! Paul did advise those he taught not to sin.

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

And what is sin? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

And where did Paul get this "not to do list"? From the same place Moses got them; God!

Now you can try as you may to try get around it, but the fact is you cannot!


Readers...please understand something here....and just think about it!

How can Paul say this; "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."........

AND at the same time have us to believe the following means what he said above was done away with?

Col.2
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;?

How can Paul tell us to flee fornication, then turn around and say that same law he told us to keep is now nailed to Christ cross and done away with?

Can anybody explain how this can be?

I can. It can ONLY be if Paul is talking about TWO different sets of laws.

One set we are to keep...Flee fornication. Do not lie, murder, steal and all of the others.

And the other set that was to be, "...our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.", the set that says, "...we are no longer under a schoolmaster.", and were, "...ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..."


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Eccl.12:13

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Perhaps you missed his comments that God is going to destroy all who eat pork chops, and that Jesus gave us the option to execute adulterers and homosexuals?

Do no misquote...I did not say God is going to destroy ALL that eat unclean foods. God's word says this;

James 4
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If a person does not know that what they are doing goes against the will of God, do you think a fair God will hold them accountable?

But for those that indeed read my lesson, did not research or just do not believe what God's word says then you will be held accountable. I am not saying God is going to put you in the fire because of it, I'm just letting you know that this is something God does not approve of and what the punish will be for some that do not obey.

....and that Jesus gave us the option to execute adulterers and homosexuals.....

And yes...Jesus did give us an option not to kill those that brake the laws that call for a death sentance. And here is the scripture that says it. Jesus said it in a parable, which just dawned on me....this may be why you are not be able to understand it..... "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."


Matt. 13
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

What Jesus is saying here is this:

The seed is His word. And His word was spead throughout the world. While the word was speading evil men crept in and began to spread false teachings. Now when both God's word and the false teaching began to grow, there appeared some good people (wheat) that latched on to God's truth that grew along with some bad people (tares) that latched on to the false teachings. Now those that spead the true word of God wanted to know if they should gather the good (wheat) with the bad (tares). Let's read how God's word tells us what the meaning of 'gathered' is as it is used in this parable and what is the fate of both the wheat and the tares;

"But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."

Jesus tells us NOT to gather the bad people (tares) otherwise we may gather some good people (wheat) also. So when will they be gathered (punished/rewarded)? Let's read it again.....

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus tells us to let the good AND the bad remain together until HE comes and gathers them. At that time He will gather (punish) the tares in bundles to burn, while the wheat He gathers (reward) into His barn.

Yes! Christ does tell us to let the good and the bad grow together and let HIM render punish and reward!

As you can read...the punish for breaking God's laws never changed. Those that continued to break HIs laws (tares) were gathered to be burned, while those that kept His laws (wheat) were rewarded with entry into His barn.



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Vengle53

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ECC,

You believe Paul, or so you say. Think about the connotations of going back to that Old Law in any way shape or form in the light of Paul's words, as follows:

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

How can you ECC keep any part of that Law if you are dead to it?

How can you ECC benefit from the betrothal to Christ if you will not let go of that Old Law so that you can be wed to another?
 

Duckybill

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Do no misquote...I did not say God is going to destroy ALL that eat unclean foods.

Ok then, SOME. Still ridiculous.
But for those that indeed read my lesson, did not research or just do not believe what God's word says then you will be held accountable. I am not saying God is going to put you in the fire because of it, I'm just letting you know that this is something God does not approve of and what the punish will be for some that do not obey.
How about you? Will you be held accountable?

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [sup]3 [/sup]And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. [sup]4 [/sup]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
And yes...Jesus did give us an option not to kill those that brake the laws that call for a death sentance.
There ya go folks. He believes it is optional to execute sinners. That would include family members Eccl. Have you told them yet?

Take note also Eccl. You just admitted again that Jesus changed THE LAW of Moses.
 

Vengle53

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[quote name=Eccl. 12:13]Do no misquote...I did not say God is going to destroy ALL that eat unclean foods.
God's word says this;
James 4
[
17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If a person does not know that what they are doing goes against the will of God, do you think a fair God will hold them accountable?
But for those that indeed read my lesson, did not research or just do not believe what God's word says then you will be held accountable. I am not saying God is going to put you in the fire because of it, I'm just letting you know that this is something God does not approve of and what the punish will be for some that do not obey.

[/quote]


Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.​

Romans 14:1 ¶Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
 

Eccl.12:13

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There ya go folks. He believes it is optional to execute sinners. That would include family members Eccl. Have you told them yet?

I tell you what. Please explain to me and the rest of the readers, what is the meaning of the following parable Jesus spoke;


Matt. 13
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


I, and the rest of those reading this post, are interested in knowing what you think this parable means!


Take note also Eccl. You just admitted again that Jesus changed THE LAW of Moses.

And the law that God gave was not changed. Those that continue to break God's laws WILL receive punishment.

Jesus just said that WE are not to do the punishing. He said that will be His job when He returns......



.
 

Vengle53

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Actually the Big Ten were at the heart of THE LAW of Moses.

???

Actually I've seen little sign that Eccl is changing his stance on THE LAW Vs Grace. But we can hope. I don't think you and I are in complete agreement about the Big Ten, but who is?


I figure "???" is about my saying, "The Mosaic Law written by fleshly hands". None of God's eternal law ever had to be conveyed by anything other than spirit. So even the using of Moses' fleshly hands was significant. It was all a part of God's bringing it down to men's nonspiritual level.

But I have tussled with a badly broken shoulder for a few months now that has not healed properly and the last month I have had severe ankle and knee problems due to infection in the ligament. So I no doubt sound like a mad man at times.

I like your sense of humor. LOL. Speaking about the Sampson remark. LOL.

I know that Jehovah's Witnesses are adamant that the Ten Commandments are a part of the Mosaic Law. And I agree that they were at the heart of the Mosaic Law.

But here is how I differentiate the Ten Commandments from the Mosaic Law: Romans 7:14a "For we know that the law is spiritual ..."

That core of the Law which is spiritual has not died and never will. The core that made that Law spiritual was those Ten Commandments. They came directly from God's finger to the stone tablets. And the fuller meaning of them is what is being written into men's hearts.

The Ten Commandments are actually a summation of the spiritual principles of that Old Law which are summed up by love. That is why Paul quotes them to validate what he says about love fulfilling that Old Law. To say that they are set aside with the rest of the Old Law would nullify Paul's argument.

There are a few keys that need to be remembered.

We need not say we are desiring to again be under that Law and begin practicing that Law to be back under that Law. The mere act of willful sin on our part places us back under that Law and its penalty:


(1) Galatians 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."


(2) 1 John 3:3-7 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Are there some here on this thread who are unable to see the reverse connotation of this following statement Paul made:

Romans 2:23-26 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

I will write out the reverse connotation for them:

Thou that makest thy boast of grace, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
For the name of God is also blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. (2 Peter 2:2)
For a belief of spiritual circumcision of the one's heart verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision of the heart is made uncircumcision.
Therefore if the circumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his circumcision be counted for circumcision?

Does anyone really believe that 2 Peter 2:2 applies only to those that are preaching the direct keeping of that Old Law?

But to help sooth fear I include the following:

2 Chronicles 33:1 ¶Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem:
2 But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
3 For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
4 Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.
5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
7 And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:
8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
9 So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel.
10 And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken.
11 ¶Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.
12 And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,
13 And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.
14 Now after this he built a wall without the city of David, on the west side of Gihon, in the valley, even to the entering in at the fish gate, and compassed about Ophel, and raised it up a very great height, and put captains of war in all the fenced cities of Judah.
15 And he took away the strange gods, and the idol out of the house of the LORD, and all the altars that he had built in the mount of the house of the LORD, and in Jerusalem, and cast them out of the city.
 

Eccl.12:13

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ECC,
You believe Paul, or so you say. Think about the connotations of going back to that Old Law

WiG, I have no problem answering questions, but have you at least considered what I mentioned? We cannot just ignore some scripture and toss them aside simply because it seems to go against other scriptures. God said;

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"EVERY WORD OF GOD" and "ALL SCRIPTURE" means just that. And remember.....at the time these two phrases were spoken the ONLY words of God and scriptures was the OT! The OT is so complete, in fact, that Paul tells Timothy the following.....

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

But for us, "EVERY WORD OF GOD" and "ALL SCRIPTURE" is the OT AND the NT, from Gen. to Rev., we are to use everything and it ALL must make sense.

With that said you cannot deny the fact that Paul not only kept God's commandments, but he also taught others to do the same. Let's read it to confirm.

Here is our proof that Paul kept the OT laws;

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now as I have always asked, Where did Paul learn that it was a sin to covet? And once he learned it was a sin to covet, do you think he tried his best not to do it? Did he do it perfectly? Probably not. But do you think that stopped him from not continuing to try? Now do you think Paul stopped at do not covet, or did he read the rest of what God's word said sin is?

Next....

Here is proof that Paul taught others to keep the OT laws;

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.


Now WiG.....how is it possible for Paul to say say all of the above and tell others the same, and at the same time mean that ALL of the above was also done away with and they are no longer bound to it?

How can Paul say flee fornication AND also mean that fornication has been nailed to the cross?
How can Paul tell others he did not know that to covet was wrong and that he learned this from the laws in the OT, then turn around and tell those same listeners, "But hey....don't you guys worry about coveting....YOU guys are not bound to keep keep that law. As a matter of fact.....you guys are not bound to keep ANY of God's laws."

Honestly WiG....do you have an explaination? Because there MUST be one!

Paul can't tell others to flee fornication AND mean that fornication has been nailed to the cross! That is not sound logic! We cannot just turn our eyes and pretend Paul did not say, Flee fornication, or the fact that he learned that it was wrong to covet from the OT!

Now I have presented to the forum that God's word tells us that Paul speaks of (2) sets of laws; One set we are bound to keep; Flee fornication, covet, lying, stealing, killing and the like.

Then there is another set of laws. But this set, unlike those mentioned above, God never liked, but He allowed.

This is not my explanation, but God's, on how what Paul says is possible.

WiG....as you know, there are those that continue to quote scriptures with no explanations to follow.

How about all those that continue to quote scripture, explain what it is they mean to those reading this lesson. Explain how Paul can say he learned not to covet from the OT AND, at the same time tell those listening they are NOT bound to do the same?

How is this possible?



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TexUs

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With all due respect WIG, I find it near impossible to take Eccl seriously about anything.
Once he's blatantly taken a crap upon the entire NT and work of Christ it's hard to give merit to anything else he says anymore.


No, I did see his comment but I was hoping he had a spiritual epiphany. LOL.

At the same time, isn't it amazing how correctly he was able to state that last comment if one reads nothing else into it!
Paul warned you and I about fine sounding arguments, didn't he?
But we're also to then look at the fruit of those arguments and it's easy to see in context of the rest of what he says and believes that his fruit is rotten.

I can't help but note that you have not answered anything I've pointed out in my previous posts. People will not take you seriously unless you answer the Biblical proofs that have been presented to you. You seem to have this tactic where you think if you do not answer the things you cannot, and distract others and us by pumping out the same (wrong) things again and again, you will gain points.
That seems to be the tactic around here of more than him.
I can quote someone on here saying, "You have one verse that supports your side and I have ten that support my side".

Immature Christians (or maybe not even that) is what it is, when it boils down to a pissing match in their minds of who can quote more scripture



I think the beginning question for Eccl needs to be, do you believe everything the NT says, without contradictory, error, or exception?
 
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Eccl.12:13

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Immature Christians (or maybe not even that) is what it is, when it boils down to a pissing match in their minds of who can quote more scripture

I think the beginning question for Eccl needs to be, do you believe everything the NT says, without contradictory, error, or exception?


Immature Christians (or maybe not even that) is what it is, when it boils down to a pissing match in their minds of who can quote more scripture.

I am not quoting endless scriptures, but the same ones over and over, in hopes I receive an answer.

Based upon the following scriptures given to us by God, it is clear that Paul kept the commandments of God.

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

And again I will present the following......

Where did Paul learn that it was a sin to covet? And once he learned it was a sin to covet, do you think he tried his best not to do it? Did he do it perfectly? Probably not. But do you think that stopped him from not continuing to try? Now do you think Paul stopped at do not covet, or did he read the rest of what God's word said sin is?

And here is proof that Paul taught others to keep the OT laws;

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Am I wrong? Yes or No?

I think the beginning question for Eccl needs to be, do you believe everything the NT says, without contradictory, error, or exception?

And here is your answer; Yes! Yes I believe ALL of God's word. God's word does not contradict and is not in error.

My question considering contradictions, as it has always been, is the following;

"How can Paul say flee fornication AND also mean that fornication has been nailed to the cross?"
"How can Paul tell others he did not know that to covet was wrong and that he learned this from the laws in the OT, then turn around and tell those same listeners that they are not bound to keep the commandment of, "not to covet"?
"How can Paul say, 'Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.", and at the same time say we are not under the law"?



Now this is clearly a contradiction if you say that Paul is ALWAYS speaking about ALL of God's laws when he speaks. But yet he has said it, so what is the solution to what appears to be a contradiction.

I offer the following;

Paul speaks of (2) sets of laws; One set that was done away with at the cross, and another set, such as 'flee fornication', that we are still all under and are obigated to try to keep to the best of our abilities!

So what say you? What is your explanation for what appears to be a contradiction?


.





 

Vengle53

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In one of your posts ECC you asked, "If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of entering God's kingdom?"

The correct answer is the fact that these things all pointed to Christ. By esteeming those statutes as though yet to be observed would you be in effect setting them like idols of fleshly appearance between men and Christ? Do you not see that you make those statutes your God if you obey them in such a way that causes you no longer to listen to God and go this way or that when he tells you to? We do not see Peter doing that in Acts chapter 10. We see Peter eating unclean meats because God told him it was time to change course.

And what did Peter show that he understood the unclean meat of the Law to represent? Peter clearly understood that they represented the uncleanness of men that we are not to digest into ourselves.

But before the Mosaic Law all meat was clean and a gift of God to be appreciated. Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

So yes, it would diminish your chances of getting into God's kingdom because you demonstrate your own stubborness rather than your willingness to obey God.
 

Duckybill

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And the law that God gave was not changed. Those that continue to break God's laws WILL receive punishment.

Jesus just said that WE are not to do the punishing. He said that will be His job when He returns......
You just contradicted yourself again. Has it changed or not?

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, [sup]7 [/sup]of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, [sup]8 [/sup]you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; [sup]9 [/sup]but YOU SHALL SURELY KILL HIM; YOUR HAND SHALL BE FIRST AGAINST HIM TO PUT HIM TO DEATH, and afterward the hand of all the people.
 

Duckybill

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But I have tussled with a badly broken shoulder for a few months now that has not healed properly and the last month I have had severe ankle and knee problems due to infection in the ligament. So I no doubt sound like a mad man at times.
I'm deeply sorry to hear that. Care to say how it happened?

Nine of the Big Ten are unique, in that they are moral. The rest of THE LAW are works. And of course most of us know that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Nine of the Ten are also taught in the NT. The Sabbath command is not in the NT and it is not 'moral'. So it stands out as different. The rest of THE LAW is WORKS. And so Eccl is preaching works religion.
 

Vengle53

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I'm deeply sorry to hear that. Care to say how it happened?

Nine of the Big Ten are unique, in that they are moral. The rest of THE LAW are works. And of course most of us know that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Nine of the Ten are also taught in the NT. The Sabbath command is not in the NT and it is not 'moral'. So it stands out as different. The rest of THE LAW is WORKS. And so Eccl is preaching works religion.


I have Meniere's disease and get frequent vertigo spells that cause me to fall. But as Paul states, If I glory I will rather glory in my infirmities, for when I am weak then it is that I am strong by virtue of Him who imparts power to me.

But I see the Sabbath as being kept by taking our rest from our past works of the flesh in Christ.

Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

When Jesus and the disciples were condemned for not keeping the Sabbath Jesus told them, Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus is the rest that commandment pictures. He is are real Sabbath, our real rest from our works. Those under the main body of the Mosaic Law were merely symbolic of it.
 

Disciple

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The law is a curse, and Jesus bore the curse by hanging on a tree and redeemed us from the law, by the grace of God through faith we are justified and made perfect and we receive the adoption as the Sons of God.
 

Eccl.12:13

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But before the Mosaic Law all meat was clean and a gift of God to be appreciated. Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

All things that God deemed as 'clean' was ok for them to eat.

Gen.7
[2] Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

And Peter did NOT eat unclean meat. The vision was to let Peter know that he should not call any MAN unclean, not to let Peter know that it was ok to eat 'unclean' foods.

Acts 10
[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

And again....

Acts 11
[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
[18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

At what point was it concluded that God said it is now ok to eat unclean foods? The vision was not about God's dietary laws. The vision was about Gentiles being given the word of God.

Now let's read what Paul had to say about God's laws;

Rom.2
[11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

So there is no difference with God.

[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

It does not matter to Him if a person has sinned having not been given His laws (Gentiles), or whether they have sinned having received them (The Nation of Israel), ALL, whether Jew or Gentile will be judged by the law!

Now there are some that believe the law justifies now one. And they are correct. The law, in and of it self does not justify anyone. But we also cannot just toss this next statement made by Paul away either;

[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Does that sound like Paul is saying ALL of God's laws have been nailed to the cross? God's laws themselves do not justify, but keeping them will.....that is if you believe what the bible says.

For some reason, there are those that think it takes only ONE thing for salvation and that is completely wrong. It takes a combination of things for salvation. Here is just one example;

Rom.10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So you have to call upon the name of the Lord.
You have to believe, or have faith, in the Lord.
You have hear the words of the Lord.
And you must receive those words from a preacher.
And the preacher must be sent by the Lord.

And what does James have to say about faith? Does he say it's the only ONE thing reqiured? Let's read....

James 2
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So even James says Faith alone is not enough.

So what else is needed? Paul already told us......

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

And what are some of the laws Paul said must be done? He already told us that too....

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."


WOW WiG!! Looks like they wore you down.......for this is what you said in post #133 of this same lesson:

Eccl. 12:13, What you have spoken is precisely right.


And now you have changed your mind to this.....

So yes, it would diminish your chances of getting into God's kingdom because you demonstrate your own stubborness rather than your willingness to obey God.

Even though Paul says this about those that keep God's laws in spite of not being a Israelite,

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

At what point does Paul tell those Gentiles to STOP doing the laws they have kept by nature?


Wow! You really think that keeping God's laws will decrease one's chances of getting into His kingdom!


Please tell me....what was it that was said that was so compelling that it changed your mind?



.
 

Eccl.12:13

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The law is a curse, and Jesus bore the curse by hanging on a tree and redeemed us from the law, by the grace of God through faith we are justified and made perfect and we receive the adoption as the Sons of God.

Please tell me....how is it a curse when I tell my son he must, not lie, steal, kill, covet, fornicate, obey his parents, keep God's 7th day sabbath, do not worship idols, do not have respect of persons, do not get drunk, do not extort......

How is instilling these laws in him from a child a curse?

Or would you prefer that my son come over and kill, rape and steal?


This is the law that was a curse to us;

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

This is the law that was a curse. This law required that we die the second death for our sins. This is the ONLY law Christ redemmed us from.....NOT the rest!

Would you like to still be under this law? Would you like to go to hell for your sins or will you let the shed blood of Christ cover them?

You do have a choice.

Now let me ask you this....Once Christ has covered your sins do you continue to sin? Here is what Paul tells us....

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Paul tells us if we wilfully break God's laws AFTER we know the truth, Christ is NOT going to come back and die for us all over again. Why? Let's read.....

[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Paul says Christ did it one time and one time only!


.



.
 

Disciple

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Galations 3 and 4... The law is a curse.. Its good to tell your children right and wrong. Never said it was wrong, let them know about faith and everything else too.
 

Vengle53

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All things that God deemed as 'clean' was ok for them to eat.

Gen.7
[2] Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

And Peter did NOT eat unclean meat. The vision was to let Peter know that he should not call any MAN unclean, not to let Peter know that it was ok to eat 'unclean' foods.

Acts 10
[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

And again....

Acts 11
[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
[18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

At what point was it concluded that God said it is now ok to eat unclean foods? The vision was not about God's dietary laws. The vision was about Gentiles being given the word of God.

Now let's read what Paul had to say about God's laws;

Rom.2
[11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

So there is no difference with God.

[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

It does not matter to Him if a person has sinned having not been given His laws (Gentiles), or whether they have sinned having received them (The Nation of Israel), ALL, whether Jew or Gentile will be judged by the law!

Now there are some that believe the law justifies now one. And they are correct. The law, in and of it self does not justify anyone. But we also cannot just toss this next statement made by Paul away either;

[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Does that sound like Paul is saying ALL of God's laws have been nailed to the cross? God's laws themselves do not justify, but keeping them will.....that is if you believe what the bible says.

For some reason, there are those that think it takes only ONE thing for salvation and that is completely wrong. It takes a combination of things for salvation. Here is just one example;

Rom.10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So you have to call upon the name of the Lord.
You have to believe, or have faith, in the Lord.
You have hear the words of the Lord.
And you must receive those words from a preacher.
And the preacher must be sent by the Lord.

And what does James have to say about faith? Does he say it's the only ONE thing reqiured? Let's read....

James 2
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So even James says Faith alone is not enough.

So what else is needed? Paul already told us......

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

And what are some of the laws Paul said must be done? He already told us that too....

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."


WOW WiG!! Looks like they wore you down.......for this is what you said in post #133 of this same lesson:




And now you have changed your mind to this.....



Even though Paul says this about those that keep God's laws in spite of not being a Israelite,

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

At what point does Paul tell those Gentiles to STOP doing the laws they have kept by nature?


Wow! You really think that keeping God's laws will decrease one's chances of getting into His kingdom!


Please tell me....what was it that was said that was so compelling that it changed your mind?



.


You are obviously unwilling to see anything but your own way. You apply the animals being gathered onto the ark in a way the scriptures themselves make no application of it. Anyone that would do that can make the scriptures say whatever they want.

You may speak to me again when you become willing to let the scriptures do the speaking instead twisting them to apply as you wish.

Until that time I will obey Paul's following counsel: Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

You succeed to blind your self. If we would but learn humility and respect for God's Word that would not happen.

Don't bother replying. Your answer is only too predictable.