A Simple Question To The Forum About Getting Into The Kingdom Of God.

[Eccl.12:13]

Should I believe you or Paul? I'll believe Paul. Christ will profit you nothing Eccl. So who will you go to for salvation? Moses?

Galatians 5:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Nobody knows everything.... Humble yourself just a little. Did you even try to find where it says in God's word that an uncircimcised man will not enter into His kingdom.

You speak so much about Paul....well do as Paul told some of the Jews of his day....

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Search your bible and see if the things I say are true.

Just because we do not agree does not mean we cannot learn something.


Readers....do as Paul says, search God's word. And If you need a hint, you can find where God said no uncircumcised man will enter into His kingdom, in the very same book Paul used to teach from.... The Old Testament!

That's right....that same OT book Paul taught from, he tells others, salvation can be obtained by reading it.....

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."


.

 

[Duckybill]

Nobody knows everything.... Humble yourself just a little.

Never said I do. Try your own advice.

Did you even try to find where it says in God's word that an uncircimcised man will not enter into His kingdom.

I guess if you knew you would have quoted the Scripture.

You speak so much about Paul....well do as Paul told some of the Jews of his day....

"

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

How about you? You are ignoring most of the Book of Galatians.

Search your bible and see if the things I say are true.

I have. They are not true.

Just because we do not agree does not mean we cannot learn something.

Readers....do as Paul says, search God's word. And If you need a hint, you can find where God said no uncircumcised man will enter into His kingdom, in the very same book Paul used to teach from.... The Old Testament!

That's right....that same OT book Paul taught from, he tells others, salvation can be obtained by reading it.....

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

You really haven't said much. Galatians condemns what you are saying totally.

"Christ will profit you nothing".

 

[Vengle53]

Our God is not an unreasonble God. He is love and therefore does not promote unreasonableness.

That is the crux of the matter here.

There is nothing wrong with circumcision when one does it with the mindset of hygiene. There can be nothing intrinsically wrong with the act of circumcision itself, else God would have never asked men to do it.

But if the attitude of the person getting circumcised is that this makes them obedient to God, they have a problem in their thinking causing them to not see the things God wants them to see.

1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Conversely, people who go to the opposite extreme believing that the mere act of circumcision is a sin are also not seeing what God wants them to see.

In both cases these people have made something out of nothing. And it is then become as an idol between they and God because they focused on it instead of listening for and hearing God's will concerning it.

Paul stood against both of those views. Paul was an advocate of our learning to be reasonable as God is reasonable. Neither tabooism nor esteem toward these things ought to be felt in our hearts for they are nothing. Either tabooism toward those things or esteem toward those things both cause brothers to bicker with brothers. And such immaturity reflects that those bickering do not have the proper view of those things. Love is the principle behind Romans 14:15


Galatians 5:14-15 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Titus 1:15 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."

1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."

Romans 14:14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

 

[TexUs]

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Search your bible and see if the things I say are true.

OK...

Galatians 5:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Nope, Eccl, what you say is not true and is a different gospel.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[Duckybill]

Our God is not an unreasonble God. He is love and therefore does not promote unreasonableness.

That is the crux of the matter here.

There is nothing wrong with circumcision when one does it with the mindset of hygiene. There can be nothing intrinsically wrong with the act of circumcision itself, else God would have never asked men to do it.

But if the attitude of the person getting circumcised is that this makes them obedient to God, they have a problem in their thinking causing them to not see the things God wants them to see.

1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Conversely, people who go to the opposite extreme believing that the mere act of circumcision is a sin are also not seeing what God wants them to see.

In both cases these people have made something out of nothing. And it is then become as an idol between they and God because they focused on it instead of listening for and hearing God's will concerning it.

Paul stood against both of those views. Paul was an advocate of our learning to be reasonable as God is reasonable. Neither tabooism nor esteem toward these things ought to be felt in our hearts for they are nothing. Either tabooism toward those things or esteem toward those things both cause brothers to bicker with brothers. And such immaturity reflects that those bickering do not have the proper view of those things. Love is the principle behind Romans 14:15


Galatians 5:14-15 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Titus 1:15 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."

1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."

Romans 14:14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

None of which negates Paul's statement:

Galatians 5:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

 

[Vengle53]

None of which negates Paul's statement:

Galatians 5:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

What it does do is something you are not the only one who has difficulty seeing.

It is not reasonable to take one or even any of Paul's statement away from their context but people do. And they believe that what those out of context words communicates to their mind is what they need to be obedient to. That was precisely Paul's point when he said, Romans 14:15 "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died."

How deeply you desire to look into and at the mindset behind the things Paul said is up to you. I personally desire to understand his mindset so that I can know in my heart that I am not in some way twisting his words. Therefore when I study Paul's writings I am always asking myself why Paul believes what he says and why he felt it was necessary for him to say to those of the congregation he is speaking to.

There is a true life story about a woman (a wife and mother) who blew up in anger whenever someone would sit their hat down on the dining room table. She had boys and a husband who all wore hats but her mother her had taught her that it was a horrid thing to put a hat on the table. True it would be a matter of respect for the husband and sons to comply with her wishes in that regard, but she would explode even if it happened once a year. Her reaction to it was not normal and it was causing emotional problems for her that were unrealistic.

She began counseling and it was doing little good to help her. But then one day an older relative told her what her mother's mindset was behind seeing it as a terrible thing to put hats on the table. It was because they lived in a place and time were head lice was an extreme problem. Now that she had learned the mindset behind her mother's rule, she was able to make progress to normalize her emotions regarding it.

I am not going to press this more with you in this writing but I ask you to please believe me when I tell there is a huge difference between applying a principle in a way that makes you its servant and utilizing a principle to serve you in your showing of love. Very often when one applies a principle in a way that makes them a servant of that principle it crowds one's ability to freely love right out of the picture.

I am only asking you to please think about the value of what I shared with you here and try it out for your self.

 

[Duckybill]

What it does do is something you are not the only one who has difficulty seeing.

It is not reasonable to take one or even any of Paul's statement away from their context but people do. And they believe that what those out of context words communicates to their mind is what they need to be obedient to. That was precisely Paul's point when he said, Romans 14:15 "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died."

How deeply you desire to look into and at the mindset behind the things Paul said is up to you. I personally desire to understand his mindset so that I can know in my heart that I am not in some way twisting his words. Therefore when I study Paul's writings I am always asking myself why Paul believes what he says and why he felt it was necessary for him to say to those of the congregation he is speaking to.

There is a true life story about a woman (a wife and mother) who blew up in anger whenever someone would sit their hat down on the dining room table. She had boys and a husband who all wore hats but her mother her had taught her that it was a horrid thing to put a hat on the table. True it would be a matter of respect for the husband and sons to comply with her wishes in that regard, but she would explode even if it happened once a year. Her reaction to it was not normal and it was causing emotional problems for her that were unrealistic.

She began counseling and it was doing little good to help her. But then one day an older relative told her what her mother's mindset was behind seeing it as a terrible thing to put hats on the table. It was because they lived in a place and time were head lice was an extreme problem. Now that she had learned the mindset behind her mother's rule, she was able to make progress to normalize her emotions regarding it.

I am not going to press this more with you in this writing but I ask you to please believe me when I tell there is a huge difference between applying a principle in a way that makes you its servant and utilizing a principle to serve you in your showing of love. Very often when one applies a principle in a way that makes them a servant of that principle it crowds one's ability to freely love right out of the picture.

I am only asking you to please think about the value of what I shared with you here and try it out for your self.

Paul used SEVERAL STRONG words to describe anyone who chooses to be under THE LAW of Moses. Starting with bewitched. Anyone who is trying to make excuses for being under THE LAW is bewitched and accursed, according to Paul. There is no command in the NT to be circumcised.

 

[Vengle53]

Paul used SEVERAL STRONG words to describe anyone who chooses to be under THE LAW of Moses. Starting with bewitched. Anyone who is trying to make excuses for being under THE LAW is bewitched and accursed, according to Paul. There is no command in the NT to be circumcised.

Your surface observation is correct. Who was he speaking to, those who esteemed those things as something and so were encouraging others to see them as something important? Or to those who understood that those things were nothing?

Because Paul was able to see it as nothing look for yourself the freedom it permitted him:
Acts 16:1 ¶Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

I am not at all misleading you when I tell you that Paul taught a balanced view in this as in all things. And that balance is crucial to true Christian maturity. It is only once a Christian grasps an understanding of that balance that they can really begin to grow fast toward full maturity.

Here is a question to flex your perceptive ability on Acts 16:1-4

Was it the being circumcised itself that made Paul and Timothy good?

Or was it the loving consideration they showed to not stumble the Jews in that territory to which they were traveling, so that those Jews would more easily be able to receive them?

 

[Duckybill]

Your surface observation is correct. Who was he speaking to, those who esteemed those things as something and so were encouraging others to see them as something important? Or to those who understood that those things were nothing?

He's talking to those who desire to be under THE LAW, like several here.

Galatians 4:21 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

Because Paul was able to see it as nothing look for yourself the freedom it permitted him:
Acts 16:1 ¶Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Paul didn't circumcise him to obey THE LAW. He did it for other reasons.

I am not at all misleading you when I tell you that Paul taught a balanced view in this as in all things. And that balance is crucial to true Christian maturity. It is only once a Christian grasps an understanding of that balance that they can really begin to grow fast toward full maturity.

Paul didn't pull any punches in Galatians. Those who desire to be under THE LAW are "bewitched", "fallen from grace", "severed from Christ", "under the curse of THE LAW", "accursed", etc. If that doesn't bother someone then nothing will.

 

[Vengle53]

He's talking to those who desire to be under THE LAW, like several here.

Galatians 4:21 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

Paul didn't circumcise him to obey THE LAW. He did it for other reasons.

Paul didn't pull any punches in Galatians. Those who desire to be under THE LAW are "bewitched", "fallen from grace", "severed from Christ", "under the curse of THE LAW", "accursed", etc. If that doesn't bother someone then nothing will.

Yes, that is right. Paul is talking to those that desire to be under the Law, those who yet esteem those things under that Law as something.

And right again, Paul did not circumcise Timothy to obey the Law. It is good that you see that, but can you see the operation of love in why he circumcised Timothy at all? Can you see that it was love for those Jews that would stumble and not receive them well? That is the important point there.

You are correct again, Paul pulled no punches with those who pushed that Old Law. But can you see that Paul's pulling no punches with them was not because he hated the Law? Can you see that it was because of his loyalty to Christ and his love for the flock who would be stumbled by such men?

God's love is the most important part of all Paul teaches. Can you see that?

 

[Duckybill]

You are correct again, Paul pulled no punches with those who pushed that Old Law. But can you see that Paul's pulling no punches with them was not because he hated the Law? Can you see that it was because of his loyalty to Christ and his love for the flock who would be stumbled by such men?

God's love is the most important part of all Paul teaches. Can you see that?

Agreed. But Paul showed little sympathy for those who adamantly chose THE LAW over the grace and Truth of Jesus, as some here.

 

[Vengle53]

That is for certain Duckybill, I agree with you.

 

[Duckybill]

That is for certain Duckybill, I agree with you.

God is very merciful. Many do not understand 'THE LAW vs Grace' subject. God will be merciful to them if they are truly seeking His will. But He clearly warned us in Galatians that His mercy does not cover the hard hearted who fight against His message of salvation by grace through faith. Those here who are preaching salvation by THE LAW are not much different than those who persecuted Christians in the NT. Paul even persecuted the Church until God got his attention.

Acts 9:1-4 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest [sup]2 [/sup]and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. [sup]3 [/sup]As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. [sup]4 [/sup]Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

Paul was a man of THE LAW before Jesus set him straight.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9 [/sup]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

[sup] [/sup]

 

[TexUs]

hard hearted who fight against His message of salvation by grace through faith.

I've never quite heard it put that way, but it's a good way to put it.

 

[year2027]

God frist

thanks Eccl. 12:13

God's word is wrote in our heart

do i remove my heart no but I write what the as holy spirit moves me to write

if we remember the least his promises to us

we handle the temptations of devil and get over them we have joy in the task


and we learn from the task


otherwise God is love


with love and a holy kiss Roy

 

[Duckybill]

God frist

thanks Eccl. 12:13

You thank him for trying to put you into bondage of THE LAW of Moses?

 

[TexUs]

You thank him for trying to put you into bondage of THE LAW of Moses?

I bet you never knew "My Chains are Gone" (By Tomlin, look it up on YouTube if you don't know it) was ACTUALLY:

My chains are solid
I've been shackled in
My God, my Savior has condemned me
And like a flood His LAW remains
Secure chains, Amazing LAW

 

[Rach1370]

Haven't heard from Ecc in a while. Is this the point where he just starts a new thread...thereby avoiding the Biblical evidence in this thread that proves him wrong? He can't answer everything here...so by starting a new thread he'd be forcing us to go over it again and again.
It's one of the tactics of "religious" people....stubborn, pigheadedness...hoping to wear the faithful down.
I must confess at this point I don't believe he can be swayed back to the truth...but as he's so driven to try and push his heresy onto others...be they non Christians, new Christians or wavering Christians, I can't not step in and tell the truth. I truly believe that its only through the silence of truth that the lies can take hold.
So as much as his obstinacy aggravates me, I will speak up...as I hope others do as well. By pushing his law based agenda, Ecc is effectively spitting on the work of Christ.
How I wish Jesus would come down and smack him to the ground, just as Paul was!! I think that's probably the only thing that will change his mind at the moment!

 

[TexUs]

Haven't heard from Ecc in a while. Is this the point where he just starts a new thread...thereby avoiding the Biblical evidence in this thread that proves him wrong? He can't answer everything here...so by starting a new thread he'd be forcing us to go over it again and again.

I think you've pretty much nailed it on the head and figured him out

I must confess at this point I don't believe he can be swayed back to the truth...but as he's so driven to try and push his heresy onto others...be they non Christians, new Christians or wavering Christians

It makes me sad and sickens me (like my stomach does not feel good) after reading this because it's true. New and immature Christians could easily be swayed by this crap and it's just sad.

 

[Duckybill]

I must confess at this point I don't believe he can be swayed back to the truth...but as he's so driven to try and push his heresy onto others...be they non Christians, new Christians or wavering Christians, I can't not step in and tell the truth. I truly believe that its only through the silence of truth that the lies can take hold.

Paul called the Galatians "bewitched", so there is clearly Satanic powers involved here. Someone would have to be "bewitched" to desire to be under THE LAW of Moses rather than the grace and Truth of the New Covenant that Jesus paid for with His precious Blood.