A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[Titus]

You are completely mixed up. Simon never had saving faith in Christ. His belief was no better than the belief of demons. (James 2:19) His heart was not right with God and he was poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. Peter did not lose faith in Jesus. He always did believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He just did not at first believe those who saw Jesus resurrected

Peter did loose faith in Jesus. You are contradicting the Bible.
Just as you contradicted the Bible when it says Simon believed and you say no he did not.
Jesus said their hearts were hardened.

Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Dan, unbelief is unbelief, doesnt matter if you dont believe in just some things but do believe in other things Jesus did. They lost their faith in their Messiah.
We are instructed to believe in the death, burial and ressurection, 1Corinthians 15:1-4. Would that be saving faith if you believed in
Jesus of some things He did but not that He ressurected from the dead.
Bottom line Jesus said they were unbelievers and were rebuked by God for unbelief and hardness of heart. Just like the parable of the sower.

Just believe what the scriptures teach over theology.

 

[mailmandan]

Peter did loose faith in Jesus. You are contradicting the Bible.

Show me the specific words, "lost faith," or "stopped believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God." I don't believe that you even understand what true saving faith is. Mere mental assent belief in Jesus joined with trust and reliance in water and works for salvation is not saving faith.

Just as you contradicted the Bible when it says Simon believed and you say no he did not.

Not all belief is the same. It's one thing to believe "mental assent" in certain facts about Jesus, yet another thing to believe in Jesus for salvation. In Acts 16:31, we read "believe (pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." In James 2:19, we read, "You believe (pisteuo) that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (pisteuo)—and tremble! Same Greek word for "believe." So in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Simon may have believed "mental assent" in certain things about Jesus, but he did not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation either. Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the gift of God with money, which is certainly not the demonstrative evidence of someone who has just received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter calls Simon out as having no part or share in this ministry, because his heart is not right before God, tells him to repent of this wickedness and points out that Simon is poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. Clear descriptive evidence that Simon's conversion was bogus and that he is not born again.

I further discussed different levels of belief in post #226. Go back and read it again.

A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

First all you do repeatedly is misrepresentation. I'm not a water salvationist. I do not believe water washes away anyone's sins. Regardless of whether you specifically believe in 'baptismal regeneration' or 'baptismal remission,' as long as you believe that sins are not washed away until AFTER...

www.christianityboard.com

Jesus said their hearts were hardened.

Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Their unbelief here about not believing those who had seen Jesus after He had risen. Not unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Where does scripture say the disciples believed that Jesus would be crucified and rise from the dead prior to the cross? Can you point me to those verses in the 4 gospel accounts? Did you even bother to read Matthew 16:21-22 or Luke 18:31-34?

Dan, unbelief is unbelief, doesnt matter if you dont believe in just some things but do believe in other things Jesus did. They lost their faith in their Messiah.

Your eisegesis is showing again. Show me the verse that says, "they lost their faith in their Messiah." They simply did not believe those who saw Jesus Jesus after He had risen. Even prior to the cross this was hidden from them. Tell me why the apostle Paul was preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Christ after the cross, but the disciples were not before the cross or immediately after the cross. See Ephesians 3:1-9 and Galatians 1:11-12.

We are instructed to believe in the death, burial and ressurection, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Would that be saving faith if you believed in
Jesus of some things He did but not that He ressurected from the dead.

Yes, we are instructed to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, yet why didn't the disciples believe prior to the cross or immediately after the cross? (Matthew 16:21-22; Luke 18:31-34; Mark 16:14) Ever heard of progressive revelation?

Bottom line Jesus said they were unbelievers and were rebuked by God for unbelief and hardness of heart. Just like the parable of the sower.

False. Not believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen does not mean they no longer believed that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Right after his crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting Jesus' resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant of and disheartened by the death of their redeemer, and did not even at first believe the testimony of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24) It was not until later that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

In regards to the parable of the sower, go back and read post #226.

A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

First all you do repeatedly is misrepresentation. I'm not a water salvationist. I do not believe water washes away anyone's sins. Regardless of whether you specifically believe in 'baptismal regeneration' or 'baptismal remission,' as long as you believe that sins are not washed away until AFTER...

www.christianityboard.com

The heart of the problem here is you seem to believe that ALL belief is the same and cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief/faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works." That is unbelief/falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Just believe what the scriptures teach over theology.

Be sure to look in the mirror when you say that.

 

[Titus]

Their unbelief here about not believing those who had seen Jesus after He had risen. Not unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Where does scripture say the disciples believed that Jesus would be crucified and rise from the dead prior to the cross? Can you point me to those verses in the 4 gospel accounts? Did you even bother to read Matthew 16:21-22 or Luke 18:31-34

The only way Jesus' disciples could be saved was to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
1Corinthians 15:1-4 death, burial, ressurection.
You want to build an argument on faith in Jesus but not faith in His ressurection is still Biblical saving faith. They were not saved during their unbelief and hardness of heart.
Dan, you show me where Biblical saving faith is belief in Jesus as the Messiah but unbelief that He ressurected from the dead, then you will be correct in your interpretation of what is saving faith.

You have to define saving faith among the apostles during this period of their unbelief in Jesus accomplishing what He already told them He would accomplish because of your belief in once saved always saved.
You are putting your theology over what the scriptures teach.

Matthew 16:21,
- From the time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised the third day.

Jesus taught them what was going to happen. He did not make it hard to understand here.
He plainly told them exactly that He would die and raise from the dead.

Peter did not like what Jesus said.
Peter had his own ideas of what their Messiah should do.
So Jesus rebuked him,
Matthew 16:22,23
- but Jesus turned to Peter and said, Get behind me satan You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God but the things of men.

Mark 4:11,
- and Jesus said to them, To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables.

Peter was told, but Peter did not like what Jesus had told him. Which is understandable.
Point is, Jesus revealed to His disciples what must take place, death and ressurection.
Jesus wanted them to believe what He taught but they doubted.

Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Dan, their unbelief and hardness of heart proves they were in a lost state.
You are claiming that they had faith while having a hardened heart.
The scriptures say they were unbelievers with. hardened hearts!
Just believe the scriptures Dan.

Ephesians 4:18,
- having their understanding darkened being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart.

Show me just one scripture that teaches folks with unbelief and hardness of heart are saved?

Hebrews 3:12-15,
- beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily , while it is called today lest any of you be hardened through the decietfullness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.


Nowhere in the new testament does it teach a Christian cannot commit sins like Simon.
If so give the scriptures.

Simon was saved according to his response to Peter.
No unbeliever would ask a believer to pray to God for him. So that he would not perish.
Unbelievers don't believe they would perish for going against Jesus and His apostles.

Acts 8:24,
- Then Simon answered and said, Pray to the Lord(Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit) for me, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me.

That is the response of a believer.

 

[mailmandan]

The only way Jesus' disciples could be saved was to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 death, burial, ressurection.

They did not believe at first and this saying was hid from them. (Luke 18:31-34) Peter did not believe it at first and even rebuked the Lord for saying He would be killed, and be raised the third day. (Matthew 16:21-22) Prior to the cross, Peter did however believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:15-17) In John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. You still have not shown me in the 4 gospel accounts, prior to the cross, where the disciples were preaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Upon further progressive revelation, in this current dispensation, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

You want to build an argument on faith in Jesus but not faith in His ressurection is still Biblical saving faith. They were not saved during their unbelief and hardness of heart.

According to Matthew 16:15-17; John 13:10-11; 20:31, yes they were saved. Except for Judas Iscariot. He was unclean. Their unbelief was not that Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of the living God, but in those who saw Jesus after He had risen. Even prior to the cross this was hidden from them. (Luke 18:41-34) It was not until afterwards that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47) You condemn the apostles as not saved, yet you don't trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. You simply believe "that it happened" and you trust in works for salvation. You "add" supplements to the gospel.

Dan, you show me where Biblical saving faith is belief in Jesus as the Messiah but unbelief that He ressurected from the dead, then you will be correct in your interpretation of what is saving faith.

You still do not understand progressive revelation. After the cross, the apostle Paul preached about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4; Ephesians 6:12-14) Now show me in the 4 gospel accounts where the disciples were preaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the cross. I'll be waiting. The gospel came to the apostle Paul through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12) Through progressive revelation, further content of the gospel was revealed, which previously had been a mystery. (Ephesians 3:1-9)

You have to define saving faith among the apostles during this period of their unbelief in Jesus accomplishing what He already told them He would accomplish because of your belief in once saved always saved.
You are putting your theology over what the scriptures teach.

Somehow I knew you would drag OSAS into this. Works-salvationists/eternal IN-securitsts refuse to accept OSAS. All false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me. John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. Show me in scripture where it says the apostles no longer believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and lost their salvation. I can't find the specific words, "lost salvation" anywhere in scripture.

Matthew 16:21,
- From the time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised the third day.

Jesus taught them what was going to happen. He did not make it hard to understand here.
He plainly told them exactly that He would die and raise from the dead.

Peter did not like what Jesus said.
Peter had his own ideas of what their Messiah should do.
So Jesus rebuked him,
Matthew 16:22,23
- but Jesus turned to Peter and said, Get behind me satan You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God but the things of men.

Revelation was still progressing. Peter took Jesus aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!" (Matthew 16:22) This saying was still hid to the apostles. (Luke 18:31-34)

Mark 4:11- and Jesus said to them, To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables.
Peter was told, but Peter did not like what Jesus had told him. Which is understandable.
Point is, Jesus revealed to His disciples what must take place, death and ressurection.
Jesus wanted them to believe what He taught but they doubted.

Again, this saying was still hid to the apostles at that time. (Luke 18:31-34)

Mark 16:14, - Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Unbelief and hardness of heart towards believing those who had seen Jesus after He had risen. Again, this saying was hid from them, but it was only temporary. (Luke 24:44-47)

Dan, their unbelief and hardness of heart proves they were in a lost state.

False. They did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen does not mean they stopped believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. (John 20:31)

You are claiming that they had faith while having a hardened heart.

Hardened heart towards believing those who saw Jesus risen, but not hardened toward believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. (Matthew 16:15-17; John 20:31)

The scriptures say they were unbelievers with. hardened hearts!
Just believe the scriptures Dan.

Not believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen does not make the disciples condemned unbelievers. You don't truly believe the gospel yourself (trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) then you have the audacity to condemn the apostles?

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 4:18,
- having their understanding darkened being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart.

Ephesians 4:18 - being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. Who is they? Not the apostles.

Show me just one scripture that teaches folks with unbelief and hardness of heart are saved?

There was no unbelief that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God here. (John 20:31) They were saved. Temporary unbelief and hardness of heart was solely towards believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen. Later Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47) Jesus did not condemn them.

Hebrews 3:12-15,
- beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily , while it is called today lest any of you be hardened through the decietfullness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

Did the apostles depart from Jesus? No. Did Jesus condemn the apostles? No. Their temporary unbelief and hardness of heart towards believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen was only temporary and did not result in the apostles departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah will be those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. Then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Nowhere in the new testament does it teach a Christian cannot commit sins like Simon.
If so give the scriptures.

May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God, repent of this wickedness/poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

Show me in the New Testament in which a Christians is described as HEART IS NOT RIGHT BEFORE GOD/POISONED BY BITTERNESS AND BOUND BY INIQUITY. May your money perish with you (do you know what it means to perish?) Just accept the truth!

Simon was saved according to his response to Peter.

False.

No unbeliever would ask a believer to pray to God for him. So that he would not perish.

So now you admit that Simon was going to perish? Now we are getting somewhere.

Unbelievers don't believe they would perish for going against Jesus and His apostles.

Believers do not perish (John 3:16) Only unbelievers will perish, have hearts that are not right with God and are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. That is not descriptive of a genuine, born again Christian. Period. It's hard for you to kick against the goads.

Acts 8:24,
- Then Simon answered and said, Pray to the Lord (Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit) for me, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. That is the response of a believer.

No, that is the response of someone who is fearful and wanting to escape the consequences of his sinful actions. He still needed to repent of his wickedness and get his heart right before God.

 

[Titus]

4:18 - being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. Who is they? Not the apostles.

Yes not apostles, the reason I used this verse is to show those with hardness of heart cannot be saved. The apostles are in the same boat with these folks. They(apostles) had hardened their hearts.

You are trying to convince me that folks with hardened hearts will be saved and in heaven.
All you need to do to convince me that I can have a hardened heart and go to heaven is give the scriptures they teach what you're teaching?
So far I've not heard you give one scripture that proves hardness of heart = salvation.

Believers do not perish (John 3:16) Only unbelievers will perish

This is why you cannot see the obvious with Simon the Sorcerer.
You hold to a theology OSAS therefore you refuse to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves.
Stop reading the scriptures through OSAS glasses and you can understand Acts 8.

Show me in the New Testament in which a Christians is described as HEART IS NOT RIGHT BEFORE GOD/POISONED BY BITTERNESS AND BOUND BY INIQUITY. May your money perish with you (do you know what it means to perish?) Just accept the truth!

If you had been paying attention, doesn't seem you have, I have always taken the position that when Simon sinned after he had already been saved. Simon was once again in a lost condition UNTIL he repents of the sin of trying to purchase the apostles power of the Holy Spirit with money.

So now you admit that Simon was going to perish? Now we are getting somewhere.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY BELIEF SINCE I WAS A YOUNG MAN.
You are not paying attention to my answers.

Look what your theology has done to you Dan?

You have the apostles with hardness of hearts going to heaven.
Prove where the bible teaches those with hardened hearts will be in heaven?

Every scripture in the old and new testaments never, ever teach anyone with a hardened heart IS RIGHT WITH GOD.
But because you hold to your theology, you must make a silly argument that those with hardness of heart are saved and going to heaven.
Prove it, you have not proven your doctrine with scripture.

No, that is the response of someone who is fearful and wanting to escape the consequences of his sinful actions. He still needed to repent of his wickedness and get his heart right before God

I have taught you repeatedly that No unbeliever when told by an apostle to repent and pray to God unless you perish IS GOING TO BE AFRAID, FEARFUL!!!
Dan, Simon knows Peter believes Jesus is God. And according to you SIMON DOES NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD.
Why would an unbeliever on the street today be scarred if I or you told them to repent because they have sinned against Jesus?
Many would laugh in your face. That is the common response of unbelievers being told they are sinning against Jesus.
You already told me Simon was so bold in his sin to try and purchase the apostles power why?
You claim it was because he was an unbeliever and this is why he was not afraid to commit this sin.

Now you say he asks Peter to please pray for him that he not perish because he is afraid of what Peter's God will do to him.
Inconsistent Dan.


Also, Simon according to you is an unbeliever. Peter never even mentions to Simon that he needs to believe in Jesus. Only that he needs to repent.
The bible teaches alien sinners need to be told to believe first in Christ to be saved, John 3:16
Christians are told to repent of their sins just as Peter told Simon, 1John 1:9.

Once again you hold to your theology that repentance comes before faith.
The only reason you hold on to this doctrine is you know repentance is a work,
Therefore you must put repentance before faith to get works out of salvation.

In reality it does not matter if you put repantance first or belief first.
Fact: If one does not repent before he believes he cannot be saved.
Can one be saved without repenting Dan?
Same is true with belief then repentance. Both required to be saved.

They did not believe at first and this saying was hid from them. (Luke 18:31-34) Peter did not believe it at first and even rebuked the Lord for saying He would be killed, and be raised the third day.

Dan, why did they not have faith in what Jesus had ALREADY REVEALED TO THEM?
Jesus told them He was going to die and be ressurected. Yet the apostles did not believe.

I agree early on when Jesus told them He would die and be ressurected they did not understand.
But after they witnessed the Transfiguration of Jesus, Jesus commands them not to tell of His transfiguration until...He is risen from the dead.

Matthew 17:8-9,
- when they(apostles) had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them saying,
Tell the vision to no one until, the Son of man is risen from the dead.

At this point they did not need to fully understand what Jesus was telling them.
They just needed to believe what He was telling them.

We see they had no faith in what Jesus taught them in Mark 16.
They lost their faith in Jesus.
Out of Jesus' own mouth, He said they had their hearts hardened.
They had hardness of heart.
All you have to do is give evidence that people with hardness of heart are going to heaven.
Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

It does not matter if you understand what Jesus tells you.
If He tells you He is going to be ressurected from the dead, just believe what God says.

Jesus certainly thought they were wrong for not believing what He told them. Otherwise He would not have rebuked them for their unbelief.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes not apostles, the reason I used this verse is to show those with hardness of heart cannot be saved. The apostles are in the same boat with these folks. They (apostles) had hardened their hearts.

There is a difference between having a temporary, hardened heart toward believing the eye witness testimony of those who had seen Jesus after He had risen (Mark 16:14) and having a hardened heart that causes you to depart from the living God in the time of testing, during the rebellion, as we see in (Hebrews 3:8-14). Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did Jesus destroy the apostles for their temporary unbelief in the eye witness account of those who had seen Jesus after He had risen? Are the apostles in hell?

You are trying to convince me that folks with hardened hearts will be saved and in heaven.

It depends on what their hearts are hardened towards and if it's temporary or permanent. Are you trying to convince me that the apostles were not saved because of their temporary, unbelief towards eye witnesses who had seen Jesus after He had risen? Are the apostles saved and in heaven or lost and in hell?

All you need to do to convince me that I can have a hardened heart and go to heaven is give the scriptures they teach what you're teaching? So far I've not heard you give one scripture that proves hardness of heart = salvation.

You need to convince me that their temporary, hardened hearts towards believing the eye witness account of those who had seen Jesus after He had risen caused the disciples to lose their salvation and they are all in hell. In their case of hardness of heart (which was only temporary) did not result in their demise. It's not over until it's over. In the end, saving belief in Christ was their final answer. All the disciples (except for Judas Iscariot) were clean (saved). John 13:10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Now you need to convince me that "may your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God, repent of this wickedness/poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity" (Acts 8:18-23) = saved. Good luck with that!

This is why you cannot see the obvious with Simon the Sorcerer.

I see the obvious with Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8:18-23. Unfortunately, you still can't see it because of your stubborn bias.

You hold to a theology OSAS therefore you refuse to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves.
Stop reading the scriptures through OSAS glasses and you can understand Acts 8.

The scriptures do interpret themselves in Acts 8:18-23, but because of you read the scriptures through anti-OSAS glasses and "all belief is the same" confusion and "perverted water gospel," you cannot properly understand Acts 8 and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

If you had been paying attention, doesn't seem you have, I have always taken the position that when Simon sinned after he had already been saved. Simon was once again in a lost condition UNTIL he repents of the sin of trying to purchase the apostles power of the Holy Spirit with money.

I've been paying attention and none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. So now you are admitting that Simon was in a lost condition. Acts 8:18-23 makes that very obvious. It's too bad you can't figure out he was in a lost condition all along and his alleged conversion was bogus.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY BELIEF SINCE I WAS A YOUNG MAN.
You are not paying attention to my answers.

Enough with the gaslighting and crafty lawyer tactics. Are you paying attention to my answers?

Look what your theology has done to you Dan?

My theology lines up with scripture.

You have the apostles with hardness of hearts going to heaven.
Prove where the bible teaches those with hardened hearts will be in heaven?

Are the apostles in heaven today or in hell? I already have proved my point in post #244 and #245.

Every scripture in the old and new testaments never, ever teach anyone with a hardened heart IS RIGHT WITH GOD.

Show me where Jesus told the apostles that "their hearts were not right with God" or they were "poisoned by bitterness/bound by iniquity and have no part or share in this ministry."

But because you hold to your theology, you must make a silly argument that those with hardness of heart are saved and going to heaven. Prove it, you have not proven your doctrine with scripture.

I already have proven it in posts #244 and #245. You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Apparently, your beliefs are fixed and your conscience is seared. Only the Lord can open your understanding to the truth, as He did with the apostles in Luke 24:44-47.

I have taught you repeatedly that No unbeliever when told by an apostle to repent and pray to God unless you perish IS GOING TO BE AFRAID, FEARFUL!!!

You are not my teacher. The Holy Spirit is. (John 14:26; 1 John 2:27)

Dan, Simon knows Peter believes Jesus is God. And according to you SIMON DOES NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD.

If Simon believed that Jesus is God and was saved, then why did he offer to buy the gift of God with money? Why did Peter tell him that he has no part or share in this ministry, because his heart is not right before God and to repent of this wickedness and he was poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity? The answer is obvious. His conversion was bogus!

Why would an unbeliever on the street today be scarred if I or you told them to repent because they have sinned against Jesus?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Even unbelievers who are "religious, but not right with God" are capable of fear in regards to the things of God.

Many would laugh in your face. That is the common response of unbelievers being told they are sinning against Jesus.
You already told me Simon was so bold in his sin to try and purchase the apostles power why?
You claim it was because he was an unbeliever and this is why he was not afraid to commit this sin.

Your reasoning is carnal. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

Now you say he asks Peter to please pray for him that he not perish because he is afraid of what Peter's God will do to him.
Inconsistent Dan.

There is no inconsistency. Simon was fearful of the consequences of his actions, which does not mean he was saved.

Also, Simon according to you is an unbeliever. Peter never even mentions to Simon that he needs to believe in Jesus. Only that he needs to repent.

Repent of this wickedness. Peter also tells him, may your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God, you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. This was not a loss of salvation but an exposed unconverted heart!

The bible teaches alien sinners need to be told to believe first in Christ to be saved, John 3:16
Christians are told to repent of their sins just as Peter told Simon, 1John 1:9.

Once again you hold to your theology that repentance comes before faith.
The only reason you hold on to this doctrine is you know repentance is a work,
Therefore you must put repentance before faith to get works out of salvation.

By placing repentance "after" faith you turn repentance into a work for salvation/moral self-reformation and confuse the fruit of repentance with the essence of repentance. Repentance actually does precede saving belief/faith.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

For a further study on the errors of your church in regards to repentance and faith, see the link below:

Faith and Repentance

To be saved, does a person first believe or repent? What is biblical repentance? What does the Bible mean to repent?

www.cofcdilemma.org

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

In reality it does not matter if you put repantance first or belief first.
Fact: If one does not repent before he believes he cannot be saved.
Can one be saved without repenting Dan?
Same is true with belief then repentance. Both required to be saved.

Of course repentance is required for salvation. If we don't repent (change our mind) then we will not believe the gospel. For someone to say that they truly believe the gospel, but they never repented is an OXYMORON. For someone to say that they truly repented, but they don't believe the gospel is also an OXYMORON. Repent and believe the gospel are two sides to the same coin.

Dan, why did they not have faith in what Jesus had ALREADY REVEALED TO THEM?
Jesus told them He was going to die and be ressurected. Yet the apostles did not believe.

Not at first and it was hid from them. (Luke 18:34) Why didn't the apostles preach about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ in any of the 4 gospel accounts? Why did Paul say that the gospel he preached came through a revelation of Jesus Christ? (Galatians 1:11-12) Why wasn't this content of the gospel not shouted from the rooftops by the apostles in the 4 gospel accounts? Why did Paul mention the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to him and that how by revelation Christ made known to Paul the mystery which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men? (Ephesians 3:1-9) Do you understand progressive revelation? Not everything was revealed all at once.

I agree early on when Jesus told them He would die and be ressurected they did not understand. But after they witnessed the Transfiguration of Jesus, Jesus commands them not to tell of His transfiguration until...He is risen from the dead.

I'm glad to see that you see they did not understand and that saying was hid from them. Now we are getting somewhere.

Matthew 17:8-9,
- when they (apostles) had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them saying,
Tell the vision to no one until, the Son of man is risen from the dead.

At this point they did not need to fully understand what Jesus was telling them.
They just needed to believe what He was telling them.

Well at first they did not understand and this saying was hid from them. Things had to progress.

We see they had no faith in what Jesus taught them in Mark 16.
They lost their faith in Jesus.

Jesus did not tell them they "lost their faith." That is your eisegesis. Prior to that they did not understand and it was hid from them. It took time to sink in and eventually Jesus opened their understanding.

Out of Jesus' own mouth, He said they had their hearts hardened.
They had hardness of heart.
All you have to do is give evidence that people with hardness of heart are going to heaven.
Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

They had a temporary hardness of heart towards believing the eye witness account of those who saw Jesus after He had risen. This was only temporary and as things progressed, they not only believed in the resurrection of Christ, but went on to preach the gospel. I already gave evidence in their case and the apostles are in heaven and not hell, so your continued argument is moot.

Now what about your hardness of heart towards believing the gospel? You may say that you believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" (even the demons believe that) but are you trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation? From what I have observed, you are ALSO trusting in works for salvation (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism).

It does not matter if you understand what Jesus tells you.
If He tells you He is going to be ressurected from the dead, just believe what God says.

If the apostles struggled with believing it at first and it was hid from them, then the rest of us would struggled at first as well. We are not superior to the apostles. Again, you believe "that it happened" but are you trusting exclusively in what happened to save you?

Jesus certainly thought they were wrong for not believing what He told them. Otherwise He would not have rebuked them for their unbelief.

Sure, and Jesus rebuked them for it, but Jesus did not condemn them for it. This was a progressive event.

 

[Titus]

Did Jesus destroy the apostles for their temporary unbelief in the eye witness account of those who had seen Jesus after He had risen? Are the apostles in hell?

No, why are they saved?
Because their faith in the Messiah returned!
What if they died before their faith returned Dan?
That's something you need to ponder.

They had a temporary hardness of heart towards believing the eye witness account of those who saw Jesus after He had risen. This was only temporary and as things progressed

Again we both know their hardened hearts were softened by seeing with their own eyes.
But you are claiming they were never in a lost state.
Prove with scripture those with hardness of heart are in a saved condition.
What if one of the apostles died when their heart was hardened and in unbelief?
Would they have been saved? If so men with hardness of heart are saved in your churches theology.

Since you claim the apostles were saved in their unbelief and hardness of heart.
Was Thomas also saved while in unbelief?
John 20:25,
- The other disciples therefore said to Thomas, "We have seen the Lord" So Thomas said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the print of the nails and put my hand into His side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.

All your whole theology on salvation focuses on is faith alone plus nothing.
You tell me over and over I dont have true faith in Jesus.

You are the one that puts all emphasis on believing and no obedience to be saved.
Yet here you are, arguing that the apostles without faith in Jesus are saved!
What a flip flop on your position that you must have faith 1Corinthians 15:1-4 and nothing added to be saved.

Who is the one who is arguing right now that the apostles are not saved in their unbelief?
Who is the one who is arguing they are saved in unbelief?

You still want to claim you are the one who has true biblical,saving Faith Dan?

I dont believe ANYONE GETS TO HEAVEN WITHOUT FAITH. YOU BELIEVE THE APOSTLES ARE GOING TO HEAVEN IN THEIR UNBELIEF AND HARDNESS OF HEART.

You dont hold to your religions teaching only when it fits your biases.

 

[mailmandan]

No, why are they saved?
Because their faith in the Messiah returned!
What if they died before their faith returned Dan?
That's something you need to ponder.

Again we both know their hardened hearts were softened by seeing with their own eyes.
But you are claiming they were never in a lost state.
Prove with scripture those with hardness of heart are in a saved condition.
What if one of the apostles died when their heart was hardened and in unbelief?
Would they have been saved? If so men with hardness of heart are saved in your churches theology.

Since you claim the apostles were saved in their unbelief and hardness of heart.
Was Thomas also saved while in unbelief?
John 20:25,
- The other disciples therefore said to Thomas, "We have seen the Lord" So Thomas said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the print of the nails and put my hand into His side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.

All your whole theology on salvation focuses on is faith alone plus nothing.
You tell me over and over I dont have true faith in Jesus.

You are the one that puts all emphasis on believing and no obedience to be saved.
Yet here you are, arguing that the apostles without faith in Jesus are saved!
What a flip flop on your position that you must have faith 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and nothing added to be saved.

Who is the one who is arguing right now that the apostles are not saved in their unbelief?
Who is the one who is arguing they are saved in unbelief?

You still want to claim you are the one who has true biblical,saving Faith Dan?

I dont believe ANYONE GETS TO HEAVEN WITHOUT FAITH. YOU BELIEVE THE APOSTLES ARE GOING TO HEAVEN IN THEIR UNBELIEF AND HARDNESS OF HEART.

You dont hold to your religions teaching only when it fits your biases.

After everything I explained you still just don't get it. "You don't hold to your religions teaching only when it fits your biases" is the epitome of irony. The apostles believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and were saved (Matthew 16:16; John 20:31) and through progressive revelation after it was no longer hid to them (Matthew 16:21-22; Luke 18:34) they believed in the resurrection. As I already previously explained, after His crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting the resurrection of Jesus, the apostles were still ignorant, disheartened at the death of their redeemer and did not even at first believe the testimony of his resurrection (Mark 16:14; Luke 24:19-24). They were not condemned in unbelief. It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47) The apostles went to heaven in their belief, not in unbelief. You need to quit cherry picking and see the big picture. You sound more like a lawyer than a Berean. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone and not faith and works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Nowhere within Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John did the twelve apostles understand the preaching of the cross. Below are the verses that prove the twelve were ignorant of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and this saying was hid from them. It was not until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that the apostles eventually came to understand and believe.

Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.

Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.

Mark 8:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples "understood not and were afraid to ask him."

Luke 9:44-45 – But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Luke 18:31-34 – And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.

Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.

Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ disappearance were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.

John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.

John 20:7-9 – After seeing the empty tomb Mary believed that someone had stolen Jesus, the other disciple who reached the tomb first saw and believed, yet they did not know the Scripture, that Jesus must rise again from the dead yet. Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.

 

[Titus]

They were not condemned in unbelief. It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

You said it again, they were saved in their condition of unbelief and hardness of heart.

Jesus did not open their understanding that He was going to be murdered and ressurect from the dead. Jesus already taught them this.
Jesus only spoke in parables when He did not want certain folks to understand His teaching.
Jesus spoke plainly and directly to the apostles after His transfiguration that He would resurrect from the dead. They had the ability to understand Jesus, what they chose to believe was their own free will.

You misunderstand Luke 24:44-47,
V. 45- And Jesus opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Jesus is not opening their understanding to what He plainly told them after His transfiguration.

Look at the verse before verse 45.
V. 44 - Then Jesus said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses and the prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.

Jesus opened their understanding to ALL of the old testament Scriptures!
The meaning of the prophesies.
The meaning of what was written about Jesus in the law of Moses.
The meaning of what was written about Jesus in the Psalms.

Jesus opened their understanding to what?
Answer: verse 45,
- and Jesus opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Jesus' words when He told them directly with His mouth that He would be killed, buried and ressurect from the dead WAS NOT YET WRITTEN.

You have not payed close attention to the context of Luke 24:44-47.
The Scriptures at this time was not Jesus' earthly ministries teachings to the apostles.
The gospels were recorded later by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Again they could understand what Jesus told them.
They ended up in unbelief after His crucifixion and burial because they had weak faith.
So weak that when Jesus was killed, they lost what little faith they had.

It wasn't until after they witnessed Jesus ressurected from the dead that their faith grew strong.
They had faith by seeing with their own eyes!
That's why it is said in John,
John 20:29,
- Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed,
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

They did not have full understanding of what was taking place.
This is why Jesus opened their understanding to the Scriptures.
But even though they were ignorant of many things,
They had no reason not to believe what Jesus told them directly.

I dont need God to explain to me why.
All I need is for God to tell me, and I can believe it.

The apostles are the same.
They did not need to fully understand why.
All they needed to do was believe what Jesus told them.

 

[Titus]

The points I made from scripture in post #214 proves that it's highly unlikely that the thief on the cross was converted, water baptized and the fruit of that we being crucified as a criminal and shaking his head, blaspheming and mocking Jesus before he repented and rebuked the other thief, then asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. It doesn't take much speculation here.

Highly unlikely? I never took a position on whether the thief on the cross was or was not baptized by John.
You have said many times the thief was not baptized by John.

That is speculation.
You have zero scriptural proof he was not.

Also your claim that his actions of being a thief and being crucified gives evidence that the thief was not obedient to the law by obeying the command to be baptized by John is the opposite of what the word teaches!!!

You have it backwards Dan.

Remember the parable of Jesus in Matthew 21:28-32?

Jesus was preaching the coming of His kingdom.
In connection to the kingdom the Lord told a parable,
Concerning two sons,
Matthew 21:28-32.

One of these lads represented the chief priests and and elders, the upper stratum of Jewish society, while the other boy signified the publicans and harlots, the offscouring of that culture.

A point then is made regarding their respective dispositions concerning John's baptism.
The Jewish leaders mostly rejected it, Matthew 21:25; Luke 7:30,
But the lower, despised classes were inclined to accept the saving grace of John's message, Luke 3:12; 7:29.
It was within this context that Christ rebuked the chief priests and elders saying,
- Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go [present tense, but without reference to a specific period in time] into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 21:31 the reason being, they(publicans, harlots) believed John's message and obeyed it,
Verse 32,
- for John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him.
But the tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward
relent and believe John.

Conclusion:
Your teaching that the thief was too sinful for stealing and being crucified.
That he could not have been baptized by John,
Is completely backwards of what the Scriptures teach on who believed John and was baptized by him.

It was the wicked poor lower classes in Jewish society that had no respect from other jews,
That believed John's message!
They were baptized by John according to JESUS!

Still this does not prove that the thief was or was not baptized by John.
It does prove your story that he was not baptized by John because he was too wicked a sinner,
To be unsound teaching not fitting into the gospel accounts of who was baptized by John.

Could the thief have been baptized by John?
Yes! But we simply are not told by Gods word.
Dan says he was not. That is speculation and misrepresentation of the Scriptures.
Dan, your church teaches fables from mens imaginations.
Just go by what the Scriptures teach.
Do not speculate
Do not add to
Do not leave or take away from the scriptures.
Your whole story on the thief is unbiblical doctrines of men.

 

[mailmandan]

You said it again, they were saved in their condition of unbelief and hardness of heart.

Jesus did not open their understanding that He was going to be murdered and ressurect from the dead. Jesus already taught them this.
Jesus only spoke in parables when He did not want certain folks to understand His teaching.
Jesus spoke plainly and directly to the apostles after His transfiguration that He would resurrect from the dead. They had the ability to understand Jesus, what they chose to believe was their own free will.

You misunderstand Luke 24:44-47,
V. 45- And Jesus opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Jesus is not opening their understanding to what He plainly told them after His transfiguration.

Look at the verse before verse 45.
V. 44 - Then Jesus said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses and the prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.

Jesus opened their understanding to ALL of the old testament Scriptures!
The meaning of the prophesies.
The meaning of what was written about Jesus in the law of Moses.
The meaning of what was written about Jesus in the Psalms.

Jesus opened their understanding to what?
Answer: verse 45,
- and Jesus opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Jesus' words when He told them directly with His mouth that He would be killed, buried and ressurect from the dead WAS NOT YET WRITTEN.

You have not payed close attention to the context of Luke 24:44-47.
The Scriptures at this time was not Jesus' earthly ministries teachings to the apostles.
The gospels were recorded later by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Again they could understand what Jesus told them.
They ended up in unbelief after His crucifixion and burial because they had weak faith.
So weak that when Jesus was killed, they lost what little faith they had.

It wasn't until after they witnessed Jesus ressurected from the dead that their faith grew strong.
They had faith by seeing with their own eyes!
That's why it is said in John,
John 20:29,
- Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed,
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

They did not have full understanding of what was taking place.
This is why Jesus opened their understanding to the Scriptures.
But even though they were ignorant of many things,
They had no reason not to believe what Jesus told them directly.

I dont need God to explain to me why.
All I need is for God to tell me, and I can believe it.

The apostles are the same.
They did not need to fully understand why.
All they needed to do was believe what Jesus told them.

What I shared with you in posts #244 and #250 clearly refutes your argument. Go back and read those posts again until the truth finally sinks in. Again, not believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen does not make the disciples condemned unbelievers. You don't truly believe the gospel yourself (don't trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) then you have the audacity to condemn the apostles. Unbelievable! No need to spin the truth. You are not above the apostles.

 

[mailmandan]

Highly unlikely? I never took a position on whether the thief on the cross was or was not baptized by John.
You have said many times the thief was not baptized by John.

That is speculation.
You have zero scriptural proof he was not.

Also your claim that his actions of being a thief and being crucified gives evidence that the thief was not obedient to the law by obeying the command to be baptized by John is the opposite of what the word teaches!!!

You have it backwards Dan.

Remember the parable of Jesus in Matthew 21:28-32?

Jesus was preaching the coming of His kingdom.
In connection to the kingdom the Lord told a parable,
Concerning two sons,
Matthew 21:28-32.

One of these lads represented the chief priests and and elders, the upper stratum of Jewish society, while the other boy signified the publicans and harlots, the offscouring of that culture.

A point then is made regarding their respective dispositions concerning John's baptism.
The Jewish leaders mostly rejected it, Matthew 21:25; Luke 7:30,
But the lower, despised classes were inclined to accept the saving grace of John's message, Luke 3:12; 7:29.
It was within this context that Christ rebuked the chief priests and elders saying,
- Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go [present tense, but without reference to a specific period in time] into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 21:31 the reason being, they(publicans, harlots) believed John's message and obeyed it,
Verse 32,
- for John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him.
But the tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward
relent and believe John.

Conclusion:
Your teaching that the thief was too sinful for stealing and being crucified.
That he could not have been baptized by John,
Is completely backwards of what the Scriptures teach on who believed John and was baptized by him.

It was the wicked poor lower classes in Jewish society that had no respect from other jews,
That believed John's message!
They were baptized by John according to JESUS!

Still this does not prove that the thief was or was not baptized by John.
It does prove your story that he was not baptized by John because he was too wicked a sinner,
To be unsound teaching not fitting into the gospel accounts of who was baptized by John.

Could the thief have been baptized by John?
Yes! But we simply are not told by Gods word.
Dan says he was not. That is speculation and misrepresentation of the Scriptures.
Dan, your church teaches fables from mens imaginations.
Just go by what the Scriptures teach.
Do not speculate
Do not add to
Do not leave or take away from the scriptures.
Your whole story on the thief is unbiblical doctrines of men.

What I shared with you in post #214 is all the proof I need in regards to the thief on the cross. Go back and read it again. Also, let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel (trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation).

 

[Titus]

What I shared with you in posts #244 and #250 clearly refutes your argument. Go back and read those posts again until the truth finally sinks in. Again, not believing those who saw Jesus after He had risen does not make the disciples condemned unbelievers. You don't truly believe the gospel yourself (don't trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) then you have the audacity to condemn the apostles. Unbelievable! No need to spin the truth. You are not above the apostles.

I've already read all your posts. You are not teaching the scriptures, only speculation.

I'm STILL waiting for you to give me one passage that teaches those with hardness of hearts will be saved as you have claimed in our discussion.

Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did NOT believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Stop making assumptions Dan, just believe what the word says.

 

[mailmandan]

I've already read all your posts. You are not teaching the scriptures, only speculation.

I'm STILL waiting for you to give me one passage that teaches those with hardness of hearts will be saved as you have claimed in our discussion.

Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did NOT believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Stop making assumptions Dan, just believe what the word says.

Again, they did not believe THOSE WHO HAD SEEN HIM AFTER HE HAD RISEN. Hence, unbelief and hardness of heart. I already thoroughly explained this multiple times. They did not have unbelief and hardness of heart towards Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing they may have life in His name. (John 20:31) Enough with your loaded questions and crafty lawyer tactics. Once again, let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

 

[Titus]

Again, they did not believe THOSE WHO HAD SEEN HIM AFTER HE HAD RISEN. Hence, unbelief and hardness of heart. I already thoroughly explained this multiple times. They did not have unbelief and hardness of heart towards Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing they may have life in His name. (John 20:31) Enough with your loaded questions and crafty lawyer tactics. Once again, let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

If anyone cares to read Dan's response, notice he makes saving faith to be faith in Jesus as ONLY that He is the Christ also the Son of God.
This goes against Dan's own religion!
He firmly believes that to be saved one must believe in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.
This is why he defines the gospel as 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Dan teaches true faith is belief in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Now Dan is saying the apostles lack of faith in Jesus' ressurection is also saving faith.
This is an example of changing ones argument to appear right.
Dan is moving the goal posts.
I do not change what I believe based on winning arguments.

 

[mailmandan]

If anyone cares to read Dan's response, notice he makes saving faith to be faith in Jesus as ONLY that He is the Christ also the Son of God.
This goes against Dan's own religion!
He firmly believes that to be saved one must believe in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.
This is why he defines the gospel as 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Dan teaches true faith is belief in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Now Dan is saying the apostles lack of faith in Jesus' ressurection is also saving faith.
This is an example of changing ones argument to appear right.
Dan is moving the goal posts.
I do not change what I believe based on winning arguments.

More crafty lawyer tactics on your part. You call progressive revelation moving the goal posts? Show me in the 4 gospel accounts prior to the cross where the apostles were preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which Paul was preaching. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9)

Prior to the cross, John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2). Jesus sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything yet about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

This shows that before the cross, the content of the gospel that Paul taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery. Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

That was not part of the content of the gospel which John the Baptist and the apostles were preaching before the cross, yet they were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom (repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand) to Israel. In Matthew 16:15, Jesus Christ asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. In John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. Nothing there about the death, burial and resurrection. Progressive revelation.

Now at this time, Peter had no clue that Jesus would be crucified, buried and resurrected. He did however, believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is obvious when, only moments later, Peter rebukes Jesus Christ for saying he will be killed, and be raised again the third day." (Matthew 16:21) In verse 22, "..Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Before his death, Jesus told the twelve that he had to die and that he would rise on the third day. However, it is unquestionable that the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34. hmm... that's strange if the content of the gospel of the grace of God that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom. *This is where we need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

After his crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant, disheartened at the death of their Messiah and did not even at first believe the testimony from others of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24)

It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the content of the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this age, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13). *Now show me where that was taught by the apostles in the 4 gospel accounts before the cross.

It's you who is more interested in winning arguments than you are in seriously considering the truth. The WHOLE truth.

 

[Titus]

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the content of the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this age, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13). *Now show me where that was taught by the apostles in the 4 gospel accounts before the cross.

You have changed the discussion to the apostles teaching to the Jews i.e. the limited commission.
We are not discussing what those Jews who heard the limited commission needed to believe.

We are discussing what the apostles THEMSELVES were to believe!
Have you forgotten? Or did you conveniently leave out,
Matthew 17:9,
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them(soon to be apostles)
Saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.

Jesus told them directly!
Not a parable that they could not understand.

What Jesus told His apostles has nothing to do with what Jesus had them preach to the Jewish nation in the limited commission.
You're making issue of the preaching to the Jews has nothing to do with what the apostles themselves were told directly from Jesus.

More crafty lawyer tactics on your part. You call progressive revelation moving the goal posts? Show me in the 4 gospel accounts prior to the cross where the apostles were preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which Paul was preaching. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9)

No, I dont call progressive revelation moving the goal posts.
You changing your definition of saving faith is moving the goal posts.

I dont need to show where the apostles were preaching the death, burial and ressurection of Christ to the Jews in the limited commission.
This again is not about the preaching of the apostles.
This is about what Jesus directly told the apostles.
The apostles knew things that other Jews had no knowledge of at this time.
The apostles had no reason to be ignorant of Jesus' ressurection.
Other Jews did have reason to be ignorant, but not the ones who were told!

You keep ignoring this fact! Jesus told them He was going to be resurrected from the dead.

Your explanation of the jew being ignorant of the gentiles being chosen by God in the future(progressive revelation) has nothing to do with our discussion of the apostles unbelief in Jesus' ressurection.

Long before the Jews knew the gentiles would be chosen as Gods people.
The Jews, specifically the apostles were already chosen to know that Jesus was going to die, be buried and then ressurect from the dead.

Dan, THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE MYSTERY FOR THE APOSTLES!!!
They were already told! Back in Matthew 17:9.

This is why Jesus REBUKED their unbelief and hardness of heart.
It would make no sense if Jesus rebuked a gentle at this time in Jesus' earthly ministry.
Why? Because these THINGS had not been revealed to them.

It should be obvious that it is only fair to rebuke someone of unbelief,
If they have already been shown the truth!

The proof you are wrong is Jesus rebuked their unbelief.
If they were ignorant as you are claiming.
Then Jesus had no right to rebuke them for not believing in
His ressurection.

Gentiles and other Jews had excuse at this time.
It was not revealed to them.
But it was revealed to the apostles about the coming death, burial and ressurection.

Matthew 13:10-11,
- And the disciples came and said to Jesus, why do you speak in parables?
Jesus answered and said to them,
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been given.

When Jesus told His apostles that He would be ressurected from the dead,
Matthew 17:9.
Things were revealed to the apostles BEFORE they were to others,
V. 9 - Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
He was not speaking in parables!
He plainly told them.
This is why they should have faith in the ressurection.
This is why Jesus rightly rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

Dan, believes true faith is believing in the death, burial and ressurection, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Now Dan is claiming saving faith can be unbelief and hardness of heart of the ressurection.
This has nothing to do with progressive revelation for the Jews and gentiles.
The apostles were told before others learned about the death, burial and ressurection.
The apostles were chosen to know these things before the gospel was fully revealed.

 

[Titus]

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34. hmm... that's strange if the content of the gospel of the grace of God that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom. *This is where we need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH

They did not understand why!!!
This has nothing to do with knowing Jesus would die, be buried and ressurect from the dead.
You can be ignorant of why God tells you something.
But still know what He said.
They could believe in the ressurection despite not fully understanding why He must ressurect from the dead.
It would have been wrong for Jesus to rebuke their unbelief if they were INCAPABLE OF KNOWING JESUS WOULD RESSURECT FROM THE DEAD.

They were told Dan. They did not need to fully understand to know what Jesus told them.
This is why Jesus rebuked their unbelief in Mark 16:14.

After his crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant, disheartened at the death of their Messiah and did not even at first believe the testimony from others of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24)

Yet Jesus rebuked their unbelief that He ressurected from the dead.
Why? Because He told them already what was going to take place.
It matters not if the fully understood.
They should have believed what Jesus told them.
There are things that we today don't fully understand.
Yet we believe them anyway because we have already been told by Gods word.
Faith does not require understanding everything that God says.
One can believe because God said it.