About heaven..

[veteran]

My vote was for "other" because the question does not provide a succinct definition of heaven.

The usual answer is that heaven begins when life ends.
Pretty short and sweet except that the whole notion of what heaven is - leaves much to be desired.

The Qur'an states that there are seven heavens.
The Bible states that there are three.
Secular philosophy acknowledges one - if it acknowledges any metaphysical reality at all.

Biblically speaking the physical life or earth where we all live and plug in our computers is heaven #1.
So I suppose the question of when heaven begins might be answered as;"at birth".

The place where the throne of God resides and that place where the saved are destined is #3.

Heaven #2 is the spiritual plane that is experienced by those near death accounts you've read about.
It is also the place where all sorts of spooky critters move about and perform their invisible mischief.

Back to the original question of when heaven begins - if one is in Christ one experiences #1 & #2 simultaneously.
A guarantee of ultimately living in #3 is also provided.

If a guarantee by the Almighty has any currency in life then I suppose one could rightly say that when one is saved,
they have snagged the brass ring of all the heavens in a single moment of time.

There's only one Heaven in the sense the heavenly dimension, but it is manifested differently according to God's Timetable.

The different 'planes' in Heaven idea actually comes from pagan religion, including Jewish mysticism of the Kabbalah.

 

[[email protected]]

There's only one Heaven in the sense the heavenly dimension, but it is manifested differently according to God's Timetable.

The different 'planes' in Heaven idea actually comes from pagan religion, including Jewish mysticism of the Kabbalah.

This is a common mistake. Christianity has become so secularized that most believers are unaware of the subtle nuances of the faith.

The Bible states that there are three heavens. More to the point, it actually describes what goes on at each level.
Let's start with the actual numerical count, given by St. Paul.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
2Co 12:2

The above passage is acknowledged by most scholars to be a testimony of St. Paul even though he phrased it as though it was an acquaintance. Note the last two words "third heaven". The number three implies at least two more; #1 & #2. Since Paul declares that #3 is the highest, it is logical and safe for us to assume that #1 is the lowest.

The Old Testament provides an actual physical layout or template of the construction of the heavenlies along with the first description of what goes on there.

Beginning in Exodus 25:9 we have the divine command to Moses to construct the tabernacle. In the 26th chapter of the same book we read the commands of how it is to be fitted out replete with measurements, colors and types of construction material. It all continues in Exodus 35, 36 and so on. Later on, the temple is constructed in the days of King Solomon. Although it's a building of stone and wood instead of cloth and wood, the temple design is identical. The temple was later wrecked and rebuilt in the days of Herod. Jesus walked in it and the N.T. has many passages that refer to it - as well as something wonderful that happened there on the day Christ died.

The basic design is this:
An outer wall either of curtain or stone that separates the world at large from the court. <- important
Only members of the Hebrew people were admitted into the court the curtains and/or walls created.

There was a separation INSIDE the court which created yet another -inner- room or area. This area was called the Holy of Holies.

The Ark of the Covenant was placed in this inner room. Only the high priest was allowed in there to offer sacrifice to God on behalf of the people AND THEN ONLY ONCE A YEAR. The man wore a special garment and had a rope tied around his waist. In the event God should kill him there, helpers on the outside could drag his dead body out without entering. The robe also had tiny bells sewn into it. The outside helpers listened intently for silence, which suggested something bad had happened to the priest.

There was a veil or cloth curtain hung in the doorway of the Holy of Holies. It signified a separation or barrier between the inner room/Holy of Holies and the outer court.

The pattern was repeated in the second temple, except that somewhere along the way the Ark of the Covenant disappeared. Indiana Jones knows where it is.

THE MEANING of the pattern provides the template of the three heavens.
The outer curtain separated the whole world from the courtyard where only God's people could enter.
That which was outside the curtain is the first heaven - the physical world we live in.
That which was inside the curtain where only God's people could go is the second heaven.
That which was inside the Holy of Holies where only the high priest could go is the third heaven.

On the day Jesus died, the veil in the second temple was ripped in two, thus signifying to all that those who were in the court or second heaven would have access to the Holy of Holies - or the high throne of God. No priest was needed any longer because the sacrifice of Christ had been accepted by He who dwells within.

On this point alone rests the significance of the Christian's right to enjoy personal access to the Almighty.
THIS is the meaning of all the explanation of the numbers of the heavens.

Note that people who live in the outside world are denied access to both the court and to the Holy of Holies.
They must become God's people by adoption first.*

THREE HEAVENS, see?

The scripture is so explicit and the notion is so pervasive throughout the Bible that this design cannot be construed as having been taken out of context. It and references to it are repeated over and over. It is a revelation from God of the construction of the heavens.

The Qur'an says there are seven heavens, but the book provides nothing that comes close to the detail of description contained in the Bible. I know, I've looked.

Secular society provides a lot of stories, but they are simply that - fiction.
Most secular people have no real idea what Jesus did on the cross either.

Pity.

Hope this helps. I invite study on this matter as I've found it fascinating stuff. I'm sure I've missed a point or two, but my primary goal here is to establish without doubt that there are indeed three heavens.

Hint: what mischief goes on in #2? Some scholars suggest that the throne of the evil one is there (since he was tossed out of the inner area). Satan and it's demonic host have also been 'grounded' in the modern sense that they cannot fly as Holy angels do in the first heaven (#1). Did you know that? In any case, a lot of things go on there that the uninitiated THINK is heaven, near death experiences for example.

Hope this helps.

* There are obscure passages which refer to "trespassers". Does this suggest that some 'outside' people occasionally sneak through the wall into the court? These passages also suggest that 'treaspassers' are ejected summarily. That is a matter for further study.

 

[[email protected]]

Regarding the actual location of the throne of satan.

I've not done much detailed study on the notion that it's throne is in the second heaven. There is some debate on whether the demonic host has been restricted to heaven #1 or that they periodically intrude upon #1 from their place of residence in #2.

That they cannot fly is pretty much undebateable.

The other interesting scripture is that the throne of satan is in Pergamun (other spelling is Pergamon), Turkey.
See Rev 2:12 & 13

Do a google search on this town and you'll discover some chilling facts of history.

Hint: Play Twilight Zone or X-Files music while you do your search.......makes it even more creepy.

 

[tomwebster]

...
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
2Co 12:2
....

Your mistake is not understanding "αἰών," aiōn. There is one Heaven and there is one earth. There are Three Heaven ages and there are three earth ages:
1st Heaven age 1st Earth age, followed by a 2nd Heaven age 2nd Earth age, followed by a 3rd Heaven age 3rd Earth age. Just because you don't know about them or understand them does not make them untrue. They are recorded in Scripture.

 

[rockytopva]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

 

[tomwebster]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

ya, so?

 

[veteran]

This is a common mistake. Christianity has become so secularized that most believers are unaware of the subtle nuances of the faith.

The Bible states that there are three heavens. More to the point, it actually describes what goes on at each level.
Let's start with the actual numerical count, given by St. Paul.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
2Co 12:2

The above passage is acknowledged by most scholars to be a testimony of St. Paul even though he phrased it as though it was an acquaintance. Note the last two words "third heaven". The number three implies at least two more; #1 & #2. Since Paul declares that #3 is the highest, it is logical and safe for us to assume that #1 is the lowest.

The Old Testament provides an actual physical layout or template of the construction of the heavenlies along with the first description of what goes on there.

Beginning in Exodus 25:9 we have the divine command to Moses to construct the tabernacle. In the 26th chapter of the same book we read the commands of how it is to be fitted out replete with measurements, colors and types of construction material. It all continues in Exodus 35, 36 and so on. Later on, the temple is constructed in the days of King Solomon. Although it's a building of stone and wood instead of cloth and wood, the temple design is identical. The temple was later wrecked and rebuilt in the days of Herod. Jesus walked in it and the N.T. has many passages that refer to it - as well as something wonderful that happened there on the day Christ died.

The basic design is this:
An outer wall either of curtain or stone that separates the world at large from the court. <- important
Only members of the Hebrew people were admitted into the court the curtains and/or walls created.

There was a separation INSIDE the court which created yet another -inner- room or area. This area was called the Holy of Holies.

The Ark of the Covenant was placed in this inner room. Only the high priest was allowed in there to offer sacrifice to God on behalf of the people AND THEN ONLY ONCE A YEAR. The man wore a special garment and had a rope tied around his waist. In the event God should kill him there, helpers on the outside could drag his dead body out without entering. The robe also had tiny bells sewn into it. The outside helpers listened intently for silence, which suggested something bad had happened to the priest.

There was a veil or cloth curtain hung in the doorway of the Holy of Holies. It signified a separation or barrier between the inner room/Holy of Holies and the outer court.

The pattern was repeated in the second temple, except that somewhere along the way the Ark of the Covenant disappeared. Indiana Jones knows where it is.

THE MEANING of the pattern provides the template of the three heavens.
The outer curtain separated the whole world from the courtyard where only God's people could enter.
That which was outside the curtain is the first heaven - the physical world we live in.
That which was inside the curtain where only God's people could go is the second heaven.
That which was inside the Holy of Holies where only the high priest could go is the third heaven.

On the day Jesus died, the veil in the second temple was ripped in two, thus signifying to all that those who were in the court or second heaven would have access to the Holy of Holies - or the high throne of God. No priest was needed any longer because the sacrifice of Christ had been accepted by He who dwells within.

On this point alone rests the significance of the Christian's right to enjoy personal access to the Almighty.
THIS is the meaning of all the explanation of the numbers of the heavens.

Note that people who live in the outside world are denied access to both the court and to the Holy of Holies.
They must become God's people by adoption first.*

THREE HEAVENS, see?

The scripture is so explicit and the notion is so pervasive throughout the Bible that this design cannot be construed as having been taken out of context. It and references to it are repeated over and over. It is a revelation from God of the construction of the heavens.

The Qur'an says there are seven heavens, but the book provides nothing that comes close to the detail of description contained in the Bible. I know, I've looked.

Secular society provides a lot of stories, but they are simply that - fiction.
Most secular people have no real idea what Jesus did on the cross either.

Pity.

Hope this helps. I invite study on this matter as I've found it fascinating stuff. I'm sure I've missed a point or two, but my primary goal here is to establish without doubt that there are indeed three heavens.

Hint: what mischief goes on in #2? Some scholars suggest that the throne of the evil one is there (since he was tossed out of the inner area). Satan and it's demonic host have also been 'grounded' in the modern sense that they cannot fly as Holy angels do in the first heaven (#1). Did you know that? In any case, a lot of things go on there that the uninitiated THINK is heaven, near death experiences for example.

Hope this helps.

* There are obscure passages which refer to "trespassers". Does this suggest that some 'outside' people occasionally sneak through the wall into the court? These passages also suggest that 'treaspassers' are ejected summarily. That is a matter for further study.

The only relevance that has to the heavenly dimension, is that within the heavenly dimension there are different places of separation in the heavenly, and not separate heavens. 2 Cor.12 is the only Scripture in God's Word that mentions the idea of a third heaven. If it actually meant three different levels, then there should be more than that sole Bible witness in God's Word. There is no other Bible witnesses to that idea of three different levels. When that happens in God's Word, it's a sign that another meaning is intended. One may not like the way Tom answered, but he's right, Paul was pointing to the final 'new heavens, and a new earth' time with that third heaven idea.

Islam's holy book has ideas within it that were derived from a previous amalgamation of different pagan beliefs they had prior to Mohammed's joining them all together in the 6th century A.D. The black stone of Mecca is a leftover from old pagan Chemosh worship. The crescent moon symbol is a leftover from Ashtoreth worship, most of those beliefs prior to Islam originating from ancient Baal worship. Their propensity for human suicide is a leftover from ancient Molech worship. So their holy book cannot be relied upon regarding many things, much less the heavenly; afterall, they teach their martyrs will inherit virgins in heaven for killing the infidel!

The only real truth an in-depth study of pagan religion will provide, is how it is loaded with superstition and mysticism which the ancient priest castes created in order to exalt themselves as little gods. Jewish Kabbalism does the same with its magic tree of ten sephiroth and belief in seven spiritual planes that each soul must advance through to become their 'own' god. Origin of all that is from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That false tree represents Satan's twisting of God's truth.

 

[Rach1370]

I tend to think it all depends on how you interpret "heaven". I would say that heaven is where God is. Of course God is everywhere, so that puts some weight on those saying that heaven is the 'now'. However, Jesus speaks of going to an actual place...His Father's house, where He will prepare a place for us. So while I know that God is everywhere and outside of time, I do believe that 'heaven' is a specific place that believers go once they are done with this race we call life.
I also don't believe that to be our final resting place. I subscribe to the Already Not Yet theory. The Bible clearly states that at some point in human history the world will end, Jesus will defeat Satan and the old earth will pass away. The new earth will then be our home, the new Jerusalem a glorified city where we live in the presence of God.
I don't know about all this 3 heavens business, but I don't know that it matters. I'm convinced that when I die I will then be with my Saviour...and that's all I really care about!

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Love it keep it coming can't wait to get there.

I've had every pleasure this world offers laid out in front of me and I would leave it all behind in 2 seconds.