According to Christianity

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I guess this is where we part ways to trust.?.?.? I read many verses which do not appear to jive or be compatible with shared and known reality? You are saying I should discard any and every logical verified discovery, which flies in the face of the Bible, to instead 'trust' the Bible? I'm to then also be okay with slavery (Exodus 21), be good with women's inequality (1 Timothy 11-12), ignore all scientific opposition to basically all of Genesis (which included all of geology, astronomy, biology, etc..), when my human logic honestly tells me none of this appears morally just or scientifically factual?

So you are basically telling me I should trust THIS book because it says so? Is this what you are effectively saying? If I'm to reduce my logic to that of an unthinking being (to resemble a little chicken), then what is the point of reading the Bible, and abiding by the Bible? But more importantly, how am I supposed to assess that the Bible is actually correct, while all other claimed holy books are not the true and real? If I'm to reduce my belief status to that of a child, I guess it's a good thing I was not born in a Muslim country.
Two things:
  1. You must surely have never been in love, for you have defined its affinity to illogic perfectly. What then - shall we not love, because of logic? Either way...your logic has failed you.
  2. But the correct logic is this: The world is not what it appears, but is rather (just as I said) the manifestation of all things both good and evil, right and wrong...indeed both logical and illogical, playing out the failures of godlessness to our own shame. But the world, in tune with its own ways has formed its own logic in accord with worldly chaos, like trusting in laws like gravity that say the force of whorling through space is something constant. The amazing thing is, not only has the world been duped, but the world has its own book - and you believed it...and yet are reluctant to believe in Him who set the whole thing spinning. Ha!
 

cvanwey

Member
May 10, 2018
87
3
8
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Two things:
  1. You must surely have never been in love, for you have defined its affinity to illogic perfectly. What then - shall we not love, because of logic? Either way...your logic has failed you.
  2. But the correct logic is this: The world is not what it appears, but is rather (just as I said) the manifestation of all things both good and evil, right and wrong...indeed both logical and illogical, playing out the failures of godlessness to our own shame. But the world, in tune with its own ways has formed its own logic in accord with worldly chaos, like trusting in laws like gravity that say the force of whorling through space is something constant. The amazing thing is, not only has the world been duped, but the world has its own book - and you believed it...and yet are reluctant to believe in Him who set the whole thing spinning. Ha!

You speak of my illogic, and yet present none to the contrary? Your response oozes from personal emotion and poetry only; and is devoid to logic. I ask earnest questions, and your response appears merely poetic in nature. Furthermore, really addresses virtually nothing tangible, from a logic perspective.

The world has many books. All, by default, written by humans, and humans alone. Your blank assertion, that your chosen specific intoctrinated book provides ALL answers, in spite of all contrary logical observations and science alone, only speaks to your presupposition. "Believe in this one specific book, because I or the book say so." And anyone who does not, is illogical. The, 'because I/it said/says so' mantra is not a sufficient reason.

My logic is this.... Belief and no blasphemy appear to be the primary tenets for Christianity. This appears benign to morality. Please address these observations, and keep the emotion and poetry reserved for the next poetry reading.

TY!
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You speak of my illogic, and yet present none to the contrary? Your response oozes from personal emotion and poetry only; and is devoid to logic. I ask earnest questions, and your response appears merely poetic in nature. Furthermore, really addresses virtually nothing tangible, from a logic perspective.

The world has many books. All, by default, written by humans, and humans alone. Your blank assertion, that your chosen specific intoctrinated book provides ALL answers, in spite of all contrary logical observations and science alone, only speaks to your presupposition. "Believe in this one specific book, because I or the book say so." And anyone who does not, is illogical. The, 'because I/it said/says so' mantra is not a sufficient reason.

My logic is this.... Belief and no blasphemy appear to be the primary tenets for Christianity. This appears benign to morality. Please address these observations, and keep the emotion and poetry reserved for the next poetry reading.

TY!
You have missed every point.

The primary tenant of Christianity is not belief, but "knowledge" of God. The masses may "believe", and rightly so, because it is based in knowledge give directly from God to men who gave their witness down through all the ages and in agreement.

We freely share what we know. But you have condemned what you do not know.
 

cvanwey

Member
May 10, 2018
87
3
8
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello CV,
These very same thoughts used to flit around in my head allot. I no longer struggle with them as I have grown in my knowledge of our Creator! There is huge amounts of evidence out there for anybody willing to research. Can I recommend a movie (true) called "A Case For Christ"? Nobody ever watches movies I suggest, lol but...even so...you might! If anything, it might make you see some things differently.
I do believe God want's us to be logical, thinking beings..."Isa.1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
"1) to believe (John 3:16-21) and (Mark 16:15-16)- Here I simply see Truth. Why wouldn't a Good and sound minded God tell His followers share that the only true and right way is ONE way ONE truth , ONE life, and only ONE TRUE God, not thousands of ways to many gods...I found my spiritual serch (initially) chaotic!
2) no blasphemy (Mark 3:28-30) <---I have personally come to believe that this means to attribute an action or power to satan that which is from God Himself. I could be wrong but it is how I view it.
I hope you will not let anything sour you on "Christianity" satan comes in the open door and has a ball with our minds. He is so good at what he does. Don't let him take any more of your peace.
First believe and then you WILL recieve.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb. 11:6
Peace,
Nancy

Thank you for the response. However, I'm already all too familiar with Lee Strobel. Might I suggest you read Robert M. Prices' book 'The Case Against the Case for Christ." It's a real eye opener.

Thank you!
 

cvanwey

Member
May 10, 2018
87
3
8
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have missed every point.

The primary tenant of Christianity is not belief, but "knowledge" of God. The masses may "believe", and rightly so, because it is based in knowledge give directly from God to men who gave their witness down through all the ages and in agreement.

We freely share what we know. But you have condemned what you do not know.

You, my friend, are inventing your own religion. Which is fine, but you are re-writing scriptural passages to suite what you want it to say, verses what is DOES say:

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

I'm no Hermeneutic scholar, by any means, but believe is used (4) times in these three verses alone. This was the verse cited in my original post. Along with Mark 16:15-16 - '15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'

"Believe is mentioned twice in two sentences here as well. Please tell me how my logic is flawed?

Thnx!
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You, my friend, are inventing your own religion. Which is fine, but you are re-writing scriptural passages to suite what you want it to say, verses what is DOES say:

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

I'm no Hermeneutic scholar, by any means, but believe is used (4) times in these three verses alone. This was the verse cited in my original post. Along with Mark 16:15-16 - '15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'

"Believe is mentioned twice in two sentences here as well. Please tell me how my logic is flawed?

Thnx!
Okay...so use some of that logic. He who spoke those words, did He "believe" or did He "know?"

And employ that honesty you spoke of too.
 

cvanwey

Member
May 10, 2018
87
3
8
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay...so use some of that logic. He who spoke those words, did He "believe" or did He "know?"

And employ that honesty you spoke of too.

Belief without sufficient evidence equals faith, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. In being intellectually honest with myself, faith just is not sufficient. In accordance with scripture, pray for my amputated limb to grow back. If it does, I will then have some serious deliberating to do (honestly)! Otherwise, words are cheap, for all intensive purposes.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Belief without sufficient evidence equals faith, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. In being intellectually honest with myself, faith just is not sufficient. In accordance with scripture, pray for my amputated limb to grow back. If it does, I will then have some serious deliberating to do (honestly)! Otherwise, words are cheap, for all intensive purposes.
You didn't answer the question.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I once was a devout believer, but am now a skeptic. Please demonstrate truth, by prayer, in accordance with Holy stated scripture. Otherwise, I will continue to question ;-)
No. You are not calling the shots here.

You quoted Jesus, and I asked you if He only believed what you hold Him accountable for, or did He know it? You want answered prayer, answer the question.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I guess this is where we part ways to trust.?.?.? I read many verses which do not appear to jive or be compatible with shared and known reality? You are saying I should discard any and every logical verified discovery, which flies in the face of the Bible, to instead 'trust' the Bible? I'm to then also be okay with slavery (Exodus 21), be good with women's inequality (1 Timothy 11-12), ignore all scientific opposition to basically all of Genesis (which included all of geology, astronomy, biology, etc..), when my human logic honestly tells me none of this appears morally just or scientifically factual?

So you are basically telling me I should trust THIS book because it says so? Is this what you are effectively saying? If I'm to reduce my logic to that of an unthinking being (to resemble a little chicken), then what is the point of reading the Bible, and abiding by the Bible? But more importantly, how am I supposed to assess that the Bible is actually correct, while all other claimed holy books are not the true and real? If I'm to reduce my belief status to that of a child, I guess it's a good thing I was not born in a Muslim country.

Of course your human logic tells you the Bible is flawed. The Bible is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.

You need Jesus Christ. Only God can open your eyes.

The Bible is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.

Stranger
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Armadillo

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
y what reliable reference point is the human supposed to use to determine if the Bible is logical or not?

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

and there is no reasoning or logic to it, human wise anyway.
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,823
113
68
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
If what you are saying is true, then this IS a direct definition of coercion/compulsion - 'the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.' In another words, if I don't believe, I instead burn. If the one true God Yahweh does exist, I am given an A or B choice. This proposition is antithetical to morality. Does it make Christianity false? NO. My point is this scenario is not love, just like may other axiomatic choices do not represent love :-/ But again, the other coercive choices (taxes, robbery, etc) do not claim perfect love, do they?

Thank you!

Where is the force being used to complel you not to believe or to believe?

That therer is no force being used shows that your reasoning is faulty.

What you are talking about is the consquence of belief/unbelief.
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,823
113
68
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You wont find any logic in God, not as man sees it, you either believe or you dont, human reasoning doesnt have a place in that what God does.

As God created the universe and that includes such reasonable things as mathmatics, logic, chemistry etc etc etc your statement that hunan reasoning has no place in Christianity is false.

Remember we are commanded to be able to give a reason for our belief.

May I suggest you start following the reasonable faith web site for logical reasons why Christianity is true.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Remember we are commanded to be able to give a reason for our belief.

I have no reason to believe just as many have no reason to not.

May I suggest you start following the reasonable faith web site for logical reasons why Christianity is true.

Why do I need to go to a website, i believe because I do, absolutely no logical reason for it, if there was a logical reason, than people would have a logical reason to believe.
 

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
5,546
6,793
113
Faith
Christian
I have no reason to believe just as many have no reason to not.



Why do I need to go to a website, i believe because I do, absolutely no logical reason for it, if there was a logical reason, than people would have a logical reason to believe.

Someone asked you if you want to become a Christian and you flipped a coin? The reason for our belief is our testimony. Each of which magnifies the Lord.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I'm no Hermeneutic scholar, by any means, but believe is used (4) times in these three verses alone.
actually that is not true, it has been mistranslated, as the Lex will clarify
Belief without sufficient evidence equals faith, which is mentioned many times in the Bible
also not true, that is not what faith means at all; that is just what many believers accept.
you getting on an airplane despite not understanding how a jet engine works would be a much better example of faith

Scripture will plainly tell you that you should not be getting with the religious to form your belief system, but rather to spend time alone with the Book with the Spirit as your guide.

Paul purposely avoided the other apostles for three years, and plainly stated
"i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock."
 
Last edited:

cvanwey

Member
May 10, 2018
87
3
8
64
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. You are not calling the shots here.

You quoted Jesus, and I asked you if He only believed what you hold Him accountable for, or did He know it? You want answered prayer, answer the question.

I never claimed to be calling any shots. You do not have to answer you know. I have read your question about three times, but I really cannot make much sense of it? I'm not really sure what you are driving at? Though I do want to answer it appropriately, so you can then pray for my amputated limb to grow back, in accordance with holy scripture, such as Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23.

Did Jesus believe or know, you ask? If I'm being intellectually honest, you are not going to like my honest answer... I would first need to 'know' that Jesus actually existed in the first place. Then I would need to know Jesus was actually the claimed son of God, or the son of himself. I would then need verification that Jesus/God is the one and only omni-God, and that no other Gods actually exist. Assuming all this is true, then the default answer would be that He would know. However, since none of this has actually been verified, other than from a human hand written book, written from anonymous authors only after decades and centuries of mouth to mouth oral tradition, then I honestly could not say?

I hope this is not too blunt or too honest? And I hope I answered your seemingly necessary question with some satisfaction? If not, please elaborate your actual question further. Because quite honestly, I may not really be getting what you are actually specifically asking? But once I answer the question, to your standards, I do hope you then demonstrate truth in scripture, by praying for my limb to grow back. And if it does not grow back, I will either assume that you know it will not grow back from prayer, because you know scripture appears flawed. Or, you will pray, it still won't grow back, demonstrating failure again in stated scripture.

Thank you in advance!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.