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cvanwey

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Where is the force being used to complel you not to believe or to believe?

That therer is no force being used shows that your reasoning is faulty.

What you are talking about is the consquence of belief/unbelief.

If I read the Bible, it clearly states this..... Please see analogy below for clarification...

A) Free will – Ability to choose without the constraint of necessity or fate.
B) Coercion – The act of persuasion by use of threats or force


Yes, many slight tweaks in definitions can be provided. Additional definitions also apply for free will. Again, this is one very large problem with the English language. However, above are the basic elements which describe the two defined words. Now read the following statements below and honestly assess which defined words above closer represents the answer, A) or B).


Give me your wallet, or I will shoot you. A) or B)?
Pay taxes to the IRS, or receive penalty of jail time or a fine. A) or B)?
Your mother tells you to clean your room, or be grounded for a week. A) or B)?
Believe I'm your God, or I will throw you into a pit of fire forever. A) or B)?


In a nutshell, perform the very specific requested act out of necessity, otherwise suffer a very specific unwanted fate.

I hope this is finally clear?????


The act of choice alone is not what constitutes free will. The act of the choice, with a direct and specific unwanted consequence for not fulfilling the specific request, is classified as coercion, duress, force, or is even presenting an ultimatum. The above examples are fairly straight forward and axiomatic. Not much debate may be presented as to the correct answers. They are all clearly forceful, persuaded, or loaded propositions.
 

cvanwey

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Of course your human logic tells you the Bible is flawed. The Bible is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.

You need Jesus Christ. Only God can open your eyes.

The Bible is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.

Stranger

So you are saying if I just presuppose it's all true (by assuming and making myself believe Jesus is the one true God somehow, without my own necessary evidence to spontaneously change my mind), even though I cannot honestly reconcile making sense out of many of the claims, it will then somehow then actually make sense? Wow!

So basically, in a nutshell, I need to already believe it's true, to then think it's true? Great. This sounds perfectly logical.
 

Willie T

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CV,
You keep talking about "claims". What are these specific claims, and exactly where are you finding these claims?
 

Stranger

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So you are saying if I just presuppose it's all true (by assuming and making myself believe Jesus is the one true God somehow, without my own necessary evidence to spontaneously change my mind), even though I cannot honestly reconcile making sense out of many of the claims, it will then somehow then actually make sense? Wow!

So basically, in a nutshell, I need to already believe it's true, to then think it's true? Great. This sounds perfectly logical.

Presupposing is not belief. You can't make yourself believe. If you 'make' yourself believe, you don't believe. You are just a facade. As I said, only God can open your eyes.

The Christian delivers the message of Jesus Christ and salvation. If you hear and believe, then you are saved. If you hear but don't believe, then you are not.

Your logic plays no role. Many mock 'belief' as if it is so simple it is ridiculous. But instead, it is impossible to fake before God. It works only if you really believe it. And you cannot make yourself believe or not believe it. Wow.

Stranger
 

cvanwey

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CV,
You keep talking about "claims". What are these specific claims, and exactly where are you finding these claims?

I do? Please refresh my memory, or provide a post of mine, in which you are referring? 90+ posts within this thread. I really do not feel like playing "Where's Waldo'.

Thanks
 

cvanwey

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Presupposing is not belief. You can't make yourself believe. If you 'make' yourself believe, you don't believe. You are just a facade. As I said, only God can open your eyes.

The Christian delivers the message of Jesus Christ and salvation. If you hear and believe, then you are saved. If you hear but don't believe, then you are not.

Your logic plays no role. Many mock 'belief' as if it is so simple it is ridiculous. But instead, it is impossible to fake before God. It works only if you really believe it. And you cannot make yourself believe or not believe it. Wow.

Stranger

Then let me make this clearer for you :) Now, I will demonstrate how basic logic works, to expose how your argument is flawed in the most of fundamental of ways.... Meaning, if you simply replace one main word, with another main word.... Also demonstrating, if the argument carries the EXACT same empty and unfounded meaning, by changing this one main word, then it is not a valid argument. So I will now re-paste your same exact argument points, replacing only one word in each attempt in authority, from post #82.' See how your argument is just as 'authoritative', and the message does not change? Your description still encapsulates the exact same presuppositional meaning.

Your statement:

'The Bible is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.'


(Now replacing Bible with Qur'an)

'The Qur'an is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.'

Or how about:

'You need Jesus Christ. Only God can open your eyes.'

(Now replacing 'Jesus Christ' with 'Muhammad')

'You need Muhammad. Only God can open your eyes.'


And even:

'Of course your human logic tells you the Bible is flawed. The Bible is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.'

(Again replacing 'Bible' with 'Qur'an')

'Of course your human logic tells you the Qur'an is flawed. The 'Qur'an' is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.'

On another note... If God is actually real, of course faking will not matter before a claimed omniscient being :) This would be a no brainer... So please re-read the statements above, in which you wrote, which basically says, in a nutshell, 'if I believe, then I believe.' Meaning, it is a useless statement or argument. As also demonstrated in the fact, again, using the most basic of logic.

Thank you
 

cvanwey

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Where is the force being used to complel you not to believe or to believe?

That therer is no force being used shows that your reasoning is faulty.

What you are talking about is the consquence of belief/unbelief.

You are getting stuck on the word 'force', as if it only has one usage; as if it applies to a physical 'force' only. Please address it in the correct connotation. I will again provide the adjacent definitions for 'coercion' and 'free will':

Coercion - 'the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats'.

Free will - 'the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.'

Now see how your above statement directly exemplifies coercion and LACKS free will by definition; as in Mark 16:16 for example... 'What you are talking about is the consquence of belief/unbelief.'
 

cvanwey

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Someone asked you if you want to become a Christian and you flipped a coin? The reason for our belief is our testimony. Each of which magnifies the Lord.

So what I'm reading and translating from this message, is that anecdotal stories equals truth? The more anecdotal stories and testimonials, the more true it becomes. Hinduism is arguably older than Christianity. If I were to go to India, and collect all personal testimonial stories, and the number surpasses all competing Christian proclamations, does this then mean Hinduism is more validated? Therefore, Hinduism is magnified through greater testimony?

I'm just trying to make sense of your statement. Sorry for the possible straw man. Feel free to elaborate...
 

cvanwey

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actually that is not true, it has been mistranslated, as the Lex will clarify
also not true, that is not what faith means at all; that is just what many believers accept.
you getting on an airplane despite not understanding how a jet engine works would be a much better example of faith

Scripture will plainly tell you that you should not be getting with the religious to form your belief system, but rather to spend time alone with the Book with the Spirit as your guide.

Paul purposely avoided the other apostles for three years, and plainly stated
"i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock."

Muslims use faith in the exact same way as you. Tell me how one may distinguish the use of faith, as a valid pathway to truth, if using nothing but faith? Meaning, If a Muslim and a Christian are attempting to validate truth in their statements, and they both use faith, and faith alone, who's correct? Who's incorrect? This is why faith is belief without evidence ;-) In and of itself, faith serves no valid purpose, other than an emotional yearning for something to actually be true, because they already believe it.
 
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lforrest

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So what I'm reading and translating from this message, is that anecdotal stories equals truth? The more anecdotal stories and testimonials, the more true it becomes. Hinduism is arguably older than Christianity. If I were to go to India, and collect all personal testimonial stories, and the number surpasses all competing Christian proclamations, does this then mean Hinduism is more validated? Therefore, Hinduism is magnified through greater testimony?

I'm just trying to make sense of your statement. Sorry for the possible straw man. Feel free to elaborate...

Sure go for it.
 

cvanwey

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actually that is not true, it has been mistranslated, as the Lex will clarify
also not true, that is not what faith means at all; that is just what many believers accept.
you getting on an airplane despite not understanding how a jet engine works would be a much better example of faith

Scripture will plainly tell you that you should not be getting with the religious to form your belief system, but rather to spend time alone with the Book with the Spirit as your guide.

Paul purposely avoided the other apostles for three years, and plainly stated
"i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock."

You appear to be confusing or misusing words. (I.E.) Faith vs hope vs trust vs reasonable expectation.

God: Unknown if god exists in general. Definition universally undefined. Characteristics universally unverified.
Airplane: Known to exist in general. Definition earthly defined. Characteristics earthly verified.

I then have reasonable expectations the airplane will fly and not crash, based upon past experience and in knowing that thousands of planes take off and land successfully daily.

So if I spend time alone with a competing claimed holy text, could I then achieve the same validated result you speak of?

Thank you!
 

lforrest

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I'm legitimately trying to make sense of the reasoning behind your statement?

Don't read too much into it. When I said "the reason for our belief" I was referring to 1 Peter 3:15. The reason for belief is always going to be a personal testimony of some sort. It isn't something gained by conceding God exists in a debate with Christians, but due to direct efforts by God.
 
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Stranger

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Then let me make this clearer for you :) Now, I will demonstrate how basic logic works, to expose how your argument is flawed in the most of fundamental of ways.... Meaning, if you simply replace one main word, with another main word.... Also demonstrating, if the argument carries the EXACT same empty and unfounded meaning, by changing this one main word, then it is not a valid argument. So I will now re-paste your same exact argument points, replacing only one word in each attempt in authority, from post #82.' See how your argument is just as 'authoritative', and the message does not change? Your description still encapsulates the exact same presuppositional meaning.

Your statement:

'The Bible is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.'


(Now replacing Bible with Qur'an)

'The Qur'an is for the man of God written by the Spirit of God with words which will resonate to only the believer because he has the Spirit of God.'

Or how about:

'You need Jesus Christ. Only God can open your eyes.'

(Now replacing 'Jesus Christ' with 'Muhammad')

'You need Muhammad. Only God can open your eyes.'

And even:


'Of course your human logic tells you the Bible is flawed. The Bible is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.'

(Again replacing 'Bible' with 'Qur'an')


'Of course your human logic tells you the Qur'an is flawed. The 'Qur'an' is not for you or any non-believer. To you it will be foolishness.. Therefore because you are not a believer, then you will reject it.'

On another note... If God is actually real, of course faking will not matter before a claimed omniscient being :) This would be a no brainer... So please re-read the statements above, in which you wrote, which basically says, in a nutshell, 'if I believe, then I believe.' Meaning, it is a useless statement or argument. As also demonstrated in the fact, again, using the most basic of logic.


Thank you

Well, how stupid are you? When you replace what I said, then that is not what I said.

Concerning islam and the koran, they are just a bunch of lies. So? I'm not defending islam.

Believing is not useless as it is the way prescribed by God to come into salvation. It is useless to you because you cannot imitate it. You cannot believe what you don't believe.

Go ahead and stand by your logic. Your logic will not get you to God.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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I never claimed to be calling any shots. You do not have to answer you know. I have read your question about three times, but I really cannot make much sense of it? I'm not really sure what you are driving at? Though I do want to answer it appropriately, so you can then pray for my amputated limb to grow back, in accordance with holy scripture, such as Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23.

Did Jesus believe or know, you ask? If I'm being intellectually honest, you are not going to like my honest answer... I would first need to 'know' that Jesus actually existed in the first place. Then I would need to know Jesus was actually the claimed son of God, or the son of himself. I would then need verification that Jesus/God is the one and only omni-God, and that no other Gods actually exist. Assuming all this is true, then the default answer would be that He would know. However, since none of this has actually been verified, other than from a human hand written book, written from anonymous authors only after decades and centuries of mouth to mouth oral tradition, then I honestly could not say?

I hope this is not too blunt or too honest? And I hope I answered your seemingly necessary question with some satisfaction? If not, please elaborate your actual question further. Because quite honestly, I may not really be getting what you are actually specifically asking? But once I answer the question, to your standards, I do hope you then demonstrate truth in scripture, by praying for my limb to grow back. And if it does not grow back, I will either assume that you know it will not grow back from prayer, because you know scripture appears flawed. Or, you will pray, it still won't grow back, demonstrating failure again in stated scripture.

Thank you in advance!
By this same measure, which you have stated, you shall receive from God.

But for those of us who know Him, we [know] that He did not merely "believe" what He said, nor do we merely believe, but He actually "knew" it, as do we, and therefore, unlike with yourself, all things have become new. This is the primary tenant of Christianity:

And you shall [know] the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32
 

cvanwey

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By this same measure, which you have stated, you shall receive from God.

But for those of us who know Him, we [know] that He did not merely "believe" what He said, nor do we merely believe, but He actually "knew" it, as do we, and therefore, unlike with yourself, all things have become new. This is the primary tenant of Christianity:

And you shall [know] the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

Okay, then prove what you say is actually real, by demonstrating truth in scripture. Please pray for my amputated limb to grow back, as from (Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, etc...). This would take you far less time then responding to this post in words.

When/if my limb does grow back, I will then believe and [know], as stated prior. I will then do my darndest to prosthelytize Christianity, as much as possible, and spread the word, 1 Peter 3:15 style.

Otherwise, you actually [know] no better then I if a true meaning to life exists postmortem. And your words and statement are still proven, as they are now, to be nothing further than blank assertions.

Thank you and I'll be anxiously awaiting your prayer request. Thank you in advance.
 

cvanwey

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Well, how stupid are you? When you replace what I said, then that is not what I said.

Concerning islam and the koran, they are just a bunch of lies. So? I'm not defending islam.

Believing is not useless as it is the way prescribed by God to come into salvation. It is useless to you because you cannot imitate it. You cannot believe what you don't believe.

Go ahead and stand by your logic. Your logic will not get you to God.

Stranger

Thanks for the Ad Hominem attack....

But just so you know, you actually failed miserably to get the irony of your attempt in calling me 'stupid'... I would try spelling it out for you, yet again, but as the theists often say, when they are trying to explain the nature of God in an analogy, 'it would be like a human trying to explain how something works to an ant.'

Please re-read post #87. If you don't actually get it, read it again. Heck, get someone else to read it.... Eventually, it may finally come to you; or maybe not?

Here's a hint.... If the argument is equally 'effective', by only changing the one word, your argument is invalid to the stated specific claims for Christianity.

game/set/match

Peace
 

cvanwey

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cvanwey

There are no contradictions in the Bible. It is not just Christians that don't have free will. Neither do you.

Stranger

Beg to differ...And please be very careful when making such a grand assertion, regarding 'no contradictions'. Slight or vast contradiction may arise in almost all written text... However, where the Bible appears to shoot itself in the proverbial foot, is by making such claims as 2 Timothy 3:16 and others... Which claims it's all divinely inspired and free from human error. Meaning, it actually does claim inerrancy!

One may then need to exercise severe mental gymnastics and invent interesting Hermeneutic acrobatics to deny contradiction to the following demonstration below - (this is only one of a vast many errors/contradictions I could demonstrate, but will instead not delve into very deeply):

Was the tomb's stone already rolled away when Mary arrived or not? (i.e.) Mark 16:4 vs Matthew 28:2? Very small observation, but they CANNOT BOTH be correct simultaneously.


And in regards to your statement about free will..... You are the first winner in this response thread! You have just acknowledged, that by definition, we actually have very little free will, or at least far less than we think or believe we have. But my entire point is that Christians will use the 'free will' argument all too often. By definition, this proves to not be the case in the main message for Christianity. We do not have free will, by definition, in regards to theism! God creates the rules, then gives us an axiomatic choice. God also tells us if we do not happen to believe, we are instead chucked into a fire pit forever. This does not appear 'loving', 'merciful', 'just'.

I struggle trying to believe in a book, which appears to not align with actual reality in many ways (Genesis account for starters). Members tell me this is where faith is required. I'm sorry, this is not enough for me. I tried praying for decades.... nothing....

All I can conclude is that either the God of the Bible is not actually real, (or), does not care to reveal his presence to me. Either way, there we are....

Again, does this mean Christianity is false now? no. But this does present a direct paradox to claimed omnibenevolence, as stated prior many times now. And this is what I wrestle with; among many other topics in the Bible....
 

Windmillcharge

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I have no reason to believe just as many have no reason to not.



Why do I need to go to a website, i believe because I do, absolutely no logical reason for it, if there was a logical reason, than people would have a logical reason to believe.

If you have no reason to believe, do you believe?
 
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