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cvanwey

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Good. Let's start here.

If you appreciate or expect intellectual honesty, you need to offer the same - which, so far you have not.

I've been 100% honest, from the jump. I stated, belief and lack in blasphemy appear to be devoid from morality. No one has addressed this... Including you. I am being honest. You deflecting, and going off tangent does not address my concerns. Sorry.


You should be confessing that the whole thing is a mystery to you and asking questions.

If I did not have questions, I would not have posted on a forum.

But here you are making your own assertions, and imposing a set of rules that is infinitely limited below the context and topic of discussion. You don't get to do that.

Even if what you stated was true, which I disagree, you instead get to invoke 'fact' about your blank assertions of supernatural conclusions? And when I don't agree, pose a threat and tell me I don't understand? Okay...


Now then, it is completely possible that there are people who know something you do not about this topic. That is reasonable, logical, and you should incline yourself to listen and learn. That you have not done.

I'm more than glad to be the first to acknowledge that I do not know everything. However, these observations cited observations appear to be undeniable, and no one has yet to address the 'meat' or the 'core' of these topics. Unless you want to count false analogies, blank assertions, and other fallacies as legitimate provisions...?

That is because you are not listening to anything beyond your level of understanding.

Address my 2 topics. Which is, Christianity appears to require belief, and to ALWAYS be devoid of blasphemy. And that all other moral tenets appear trivial, unnecessary, or irrelevant. Meaning, once blasphemed = eternal torture. Meaning, If I fail to believe in the correct god = eternal torture. How is this just and loving?

Again, this has no bearing on whether or not I accept this as fact. I'm instead stating these two topics appear to be fundamental to Christianity, as written in the Bible.


If you are to reconcile all truth...you need to be open to all truth, and not limit the discussion to just what you yourself understand.

Then please address my observations, or there really is no point in reading your responses.

THNX
 

cvanwey

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I must have touched a nerve. Are you here to learn or to promote your own religion?

What dogma have I displayed? I'm in search for truth, not just what makes me feel good.

Anyway, I will answer your question: I don't know Allah or the Quran, and no, I am not a Muslim - but I do know God.

Now who's being closed minded?
 

ScottA

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No, it is YOU whom are NOT listening.... You are presenting a blank assertion of vast proportions. How would your attempt in rationale work in China, India, Japan, Norway, and many others, all whom vastly worship an alternate entity, with alternative propositions for the afterlife?

Thnx!!!
Let me start by teaching you something about how to comment here. You will notice in comment #36 above that you wrote several things but only this one comment is now visible because you wrote your answers to me within the the quote of my comment...which means when I want to return comment and quote you, your comments are left out.

If you want to answer several comments, you need to "Quote" them individually. Can you do that? Otherwise having a discussion is fairly impossible.
 

cvanwey

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I wish I did not have to wait for #36 posts to get me observations addressed with complete intellectual honesty.
 

ScottA

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No, it is YOU whom are NOT listening.... You are presenting a blank assertion of vast proportions. How would your attempt in rationale work in China, India, Japan, Norway, and many others, all whom vastly worship an alternate entity, with alternative propositions for the afterlife?

Thnx!!!
Now for an actual reply. But if you would like to discuss those other points, you will have to go back and quote each one.

So...am I "presenting a blank assertion?" No. After a downward spiral of many years I came to call out to God - and He answered. I was taken above the earth and shown many things. He then lead me to a bible which confirmed my experience of Him just ass my experience confirmed Him. So, "vast"? Yes. Blank? No.

As for the many other believes: The world is a mere manifestation of what is on high, both good and evil, right and wrong. As such, we are all here either to change or confirm our convictions. But this, even for those who perish, is a gift from God - for they have already chosen, and yet He has given them a lifetime more.
 

cvanwey

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So since I have not received such validation as you, am I then validated to conclude that God either never will expose himself to me (for decades and counting), does not care to, or does not exist; and now that I have severe doubt, and my faith is now wavering, I should never expect to or presume Yahweh is not real?

On a side note, how am I to respond to the countless people I work with, whom also claim anecdotal responses, whom also claim they speak to their god/gods, whom are not Christian?
 

ScottA

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I wish I did not have to wait for #36 posts to get me observations addressed with complete intellectual honesty.
Must I do everything?

My first comment was the answer, that is: "You don't understand." And then I explained.

Oh, and you, somehow, do? Playing tit for tat gets no one nowhere. You are using the same attempt in human logic I am. Because you fully believe in an authoritative book does not give you more wisdom, insight, or enlightenment to any possible reality. All it demonstrate is ethnocentrism on your part. I acknowledge that I cannot reconcile parts of the Bible. Rather than answer or address these topics, you instead play smug, present blank assertions, and represent a presuppositional conclusion, for which you opening admit no one can prove.
Yes, I do understand - that "somehow" being from God Himself. So...I am not playing tit for tat. Nor do I "believe." That I cannot say, for it is rather that I "know", as I was not without knowledge of the truth and forced to believe by faith as with some, of whom are more esteemed than I. But rather, I turned to God in ignorance, which He accounted as faith, and gave me knowledge of Him nonetheless.

So, no, I do not believe in a book. I believe in the Author of a book.

But now you assert to know something of me, and do not, making false accusations. Why should I answer you at all?

As for proof, in the end - you will have your proof.
 

Philip James

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The topic of morals appear rather irrelevant? Rather than debating absolute definitions of 'good' and 'bad', the two primary tenets of Christianity appear to be as follows - which means the rights to enter heaven's gates require:

1) to believe (John 3:16-21) and (Mark 16:15-16)
2) no blasphemy (Mark 3:28-30)

Topic 1) seems to suggest coercion or an ultimatum. Meaning, believe in this specific proposition or otherwise/instead burn forever. (i.e.) paying taxes to the IRS or else (or) being held at gunpoint for your possessions - give the wallet or else. You are presented with an A or B choice. This is not free will, by definition. Making one specific presented choice, or otherwise suffering an unwanted fate, is coercive. Furthermore, belief is not a choice. Otherwise, tell yourself you believe you can fly, then jump off a building without artificial means.

Topic 2) warns to not blaspheme, or suffer an eternal punishment, with no later chance of amends. Meaning, a born again Christian is most likely self-deluding themselves, as they would have most likely blasphemed God's name prior to later Christian conversion - rendering all future earnest acts of following Christ pointless.

In a nutshell, regardless of any works (i.e.) good works, good acts, good character, good intentions, etc., without belief and 100% lack in taking the lord's name in vain (ever), one is banished to hell. On the flip side, one could violate every other defined Biblical sin in the Bible, with possible later forgiveness with repentance or simply believing in the holy trinity and full absence of blasphemy.

This does not appear like a just system. Christianity appears to rely upon 'amoral' attributes, rather than moral or immoral attributes.

Any thoughts? This is one of the many reasons I question Christianity, from a logical perspective.

Thank you in advance for your response(s).

It has always been a choice between A and B although the 2 you should be using are life and death.

From the beginning God says believe me and live or disbelieve and die..
Walk with ME and live .. Walk without me and die..

The liar is the one that questions God's veracity... ' did He really say you would surely die?'

And the choice to live or die is held out to every man. It is the very definition of freedom of choice... God will not force life on anyone...

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
 

ScottA

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But you are completely free not to believe the truth... Good luck with that.

This is exactly what many Christians seem to resort to, when they are out of answers. Present a threat. Assert something you just willingly admitted may not be true, because people are confined by human logic. So if I possess the same available logic as you, and you admit we are restricted, then on what basis is your logic 'correct' about Christianity, where mine is 'wrong'?
I got answers - ask away. But, "we" are not restricted, because I am not. My knowledge is from God. Where did you get your information?

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You can prove nothing. Purposing to use a standard of proof that falls short of the context, doesn't prove anything except that you are operating within limits.

And so are you, so who is right, and how might one know? I follow the evidence using logic and reason. What is your mechanism? Faith? Is credulity an acceptable for 'truth'?
This you cannot say. But you make it obvious that you do not have answers, which I have.

One can only know God if He draws him, and if that person seeks Him, he will find Him.

If you follow men's worldly logic, you will only find men's worldly answers - not God. As for me, I have told you already.

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As far as me proving God to you...sorry, it doesn't work that way. That would be like a thief asking a person to show them their money when they have none. You see, the loot is not mine to show. Or it would be like asking a person on a hill to prove what is on the other side to someone who will not go to the top of the hill and look for themselves.

As for circular logic...it is you who are circling within your own self-imposed limits, not us. We have seen outside the circle...and obviously - you have no idea what we are even talking about.
And yet, one may have demonstration of a hill, of people, and of known reality. Yahweh does not necessarily fit into any of this.... All the Bible proves thus far, is that humans wrote it. The claims of being inspired from another non human entity is where I raise pause?

I think I have a fairly clean grasp of the situation... The Bible is true, because it says so. And even though there appears to be obvious contradiction, when removing emotion from the equation, I should instead ignore or rationalize all the parts which appear illogical, to instead favor faith. Sorry for the 'strawman' argument just presented. However, if your shoe fits....
Indeed, He does not fit into your worldly logic. But I have given you a worldly analogy all the same - and it fits just fine for you to understand what I mean: that is, that the information is beyond your understanding, and you must change your approach if you wish to to attain it.

As for humans writing the bible...it doesn't matter. What matters is that millions have given their witness, that short of human error, agrees over the course of all recorded history. This, even scientifically, is referred to as "the establishment of truth." And thus, it is your "pause" that is suspect.
 
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ScottA

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So since I have not received such validation as you, am I then validated to conclude that God either never will expose himself to me (for decades and counting), does not care to, or does not exist; and now that I have severe doubt, and my faith is now wavering, I should never expect to or presume Yahweh is not real?
God has given you your whole life to decide your own fate. You know the terms. So decide. But do not think that God owes you a timely response. He does not. We all first chose against Him (before we were even born)...so now He will decide when the time is right. But it does help if your heart is in the right place.
 

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cvanwey


Concerning your remarks in post #31:

They don't represent a false analogy. Circular reasoning...who cares? If it is circular but true it doesn't matter.

I don't need to reread. As I said, if you don't know then you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ. And you said you don't know, therefor you don't believe.

I didn't sidestep anything. I said what God does is good, no matter what He does. You don't like it. Sorry.

Why should I look it up. You are the one worried about it. You give me the definition of 'will' and 'free will'. As I said, Christians have a will and they are not robots.

I answered because of your remarks. You're the one not claiming to be Christian. Just look below your avatar. And, I agree with you.

There are no contradictions in the Bible. It is not just Christians that don't have free will. Neither do you.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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On a side note, how am I to respond to the countless people I work with, whom also claim anecdotal responses, whom also claim they speak to their god/gods, whom are not Christian?
You don't need to hear from anyone - you have, but you don't need to hear from anyone. This is between you and God - keep it that way. And don't be in a hurry to make your decision. If the morning is good, let it be morning. If the midday is good, then midday. Or if evening, then evening. Time is an illusion...simply make a good decision. But know this, of all that is in the world as it has been manifest from on high - there is only one truth. And it is okay to tell God you don't know, but would like to. And if you do, He will pick the day. Meanwhile, every day has purpose, make the best of it.
 

cvanwey

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It has always been a choice between A and B although the 2 you should be using are life and death.

From the beginning God says believe me and live or disbelieve and die..
Walk with ME and live .. Walk without me and die..

The liar is the one that questions God's veracity... ' did He really say you would surely die?'

And the choice to live or die is held out to every man. It is the very definition of freedom of choice... God will not force life on anyone...

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

I kind of don't even know where to start here....

First and foremost, you have just acknowledged my original post. Believe or burn. What if I cannot believe, based upon the limited rationale of my mortal brain? Meaning, my provided evidence appears lacking and/or insufficient? My point is, if it's an all or nothing proposition, the presented direct tenets appear to defy any presented definition of 'good'. Lack in belief does not appear to merit eternal damnation; especially in the face of the fact the attempting subscriber is doing their earnest in search for answers.

Faith is not an acceptable form of validation. Faith is believe without, or in spite of, necessary evidence; and instead confirm your own truth, the truth, or reality. We, all live in the same shared reality, unless we are a brain in a vat or in the Matrix. We all do our best to validate a confirmed and shared reality. For the most part, logic and reason aligns with the same positions, maybe aside from highly controversial topics like (politics, business ethics, and even religious dogma).

The Holy Qur'an claims perfection, and claims to be God inspired. I'm not a Muslim. Neither is anyone on this specific forum, most likely. The questions is, why not? Using your logic, the book says the book is God inspired. You say it is not. The question is, why not? They both claim divinity. All one can do is look to the presented ingredients to each book, and measuring the claims with the logic. I'm looking at the claims, and measuring the logical conclusion of the presented claims. If they do not match up, I then have a valid reason for pause to a claimed 'truth'.

To claim I'm a 'liar' if I do not accept Yahweh is absurd.

My point was never that God forces your hand. However, when looking at the verses I already cited, it's crystal clear coercion, or an ultimatum is presented. Which is, believe the Bible, or instead be condemned to eternal damnation. Free will is the ability to choose without one very specific alternative fate.
 

lforrest

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Let me ask you an honest question... You also have the opportunity to disbelieve many things, events, entities, people, etc.... The real intellectually honest question remains..., why do you 'disbelieve'? I'll take the liberty in answering... Most likely, because disbelief is the default position!

An interesting question, and I think it deserves more reflection.

Disbelief is the default position, but only when someone says something disagreeable.
For example, if I said you are an intelligent person would you be inclined to question yourself or believe me? Perhaps you would ignore the flattery and wonder about my motives; people are often untrustworthy and will lie for personal gain.

So when deciding to believe something the deeper rhetorical question you need to ask is do you trust the source. As a child everyone starts off naive, trusting implicitly. The world teaches us to distrust, because people will lie for selfish reasons. The dynamics can be more complicated and towers of babel constructed upon false teachings, but it comes down to who we trust.

Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

God being good is a foregone conclusion. There is every reason to implicitly trust the Lord.
 
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Philip James

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I kind of don't even know where to start here....

First and foremost, you have just acknowledged my original post. Believe or burn. What if I cannot believe, based upon the limited rationale of my mortal brain? Meaning, my provided evidence appears lacking and/or insufficient? My point is, if it's an all or nothing proposition, the presented direct tenets appear to defy any presented definition of 'good'. Lack in belief does not appear to merit eternal damnation; especially in the face of the fact the attempting subscriber is doing their earnest in search for answers.

Faith is not an acceptable form of validation. Faith is believe without, or in spite of, necessary evidence; and instead confirm your own truth, the truth, or reality. We, all live in the same shared reality, unless we are a brain in a vat or in the Matrix. We all do our best to validate a confirmed and shared reality. For the most part, logic and reason aligns with the same positions, maybe aside from highly controversial topics like (politics, business ethics, and even religious dogma).

The Holy Qur'an claims perfection, and claims to be God inspired. I'm not a Muslim. Neither is anyone on this specific forum, most likely. The questions is, why not? Using your logic, the book says the book is God inspired. You say it is not. The question is, why not? They both claim divinity. All one can do is look to the presented ingredients to each book, and measuring the claims with the logic. I'm looking at the claims, and measuring the logical conclusion of the presented claims. If they do not match up, I then have a valid reason for pause to a claimed 'truth'.

To claim I'm a 'liar' if I do not accept Yahweh is absurd.

My point was never that God forces your hand. However, when looking at the verses I already cited, it's crystal clear coercion, or an ultimatum is presented. Which is, believe the Bible, or instead be condemned to eternal damnation. Free will is the ability to choose without one very specific alternative fate.

Sorry, i was not calling you a liar, but the snake that whispered in Adam's ear 'did God really say..'

As for freewill.. Is not the very ability to choose A or B ?

The 'alternative fate' B is death. The real question is do you want to choose A .. Life!

Do you want to live forever? That is the choice God offers us..

As for the Muslims, their Koran acknowledges Jesua as the messiah but then contradicts everything He said..

How will Jesus judge them? I can't sau with any certainty, but I'm confident it will be with mercy.. Same for other religions... I think those who naturally are humble and loving people will have the chance to see and choose Life, if not in this life, then before the throne of Christ.

But why wait and hope for that chance, when Jesus is ready to give you that life now?

Why is Jesus different? Well for one, he rose from the dead!

You remind me of Thomas... Sounds good but i cant believe until I see him myself, touch the holes in his feet and hands... Put my hand in his side...

Keep searching... But keep your mind and your heart open... God does love you too! Don't be afraid to try talking to Him
 
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Nancy

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The topic of morals appear rather irrelevant? Rather than debating absolute definitions of 'good' and 'bad', the two primary tenets of Christianity appear to be as follows - which means the rights to enter heaven's gates require:
1) to believe (John 3:16-21) and (Mark 16:15-16)
2) no blasphemy (Mark 3:28-30)

Topic 1) seems to suggest coercion or an ultimatum. Meaning, believe in this specific proposition or otherwise/instead burn forever. (i.e.) paying taxes to the IRS or else (or) being held at gunpoint for your possessions - give the wallet or else. You are presented with an A or B choice. This is not free will, by definition. Making one specific presented choice, or otherwise suffering an unwanted fate, is coercive. Furthermore, belief is not a choice. Otherwise, tell yourself you believe you can fly, then jump off a building without artificial means.

Topic 2) warns to not blaspheme, or suffer an eternal punishment, with no later chance of amends. Meaning, a born again Christian is most likely self-deluding themselves, as they would have most likely blasphemed God's name prior to later Christian conversion - rendering all future earnest acts of following Christ pointless.
In a nutshell, regardless of any works (i.e.) good works, good acts, good character, good intentions, etc., without belief and 100% lack in taking the lord's name in vain (ever), one is banished to hell. On the flip side, one could violate every other defined Biblical sin in the Bible, with possible later forgiveness with repentance or simply believing in the holy trinity and full absence of blasphemy.
This does not appear like a just system. Christianity appears to rely upon 'amoral' attributes, rather than moral or immoral attributes.
Any thoughts? This is one of the many reasons I question Christianity, from a logical perspective.
Thank you in advance for your response(s).

Hello CV,
These very same thoughts used to flit around in my head allot. I no longer struggle with them as I have grown in my knowledge of our Creator! There is huge amounts of evidence out there for anybody willing to research. Can I recommend a movie (true) called "A Case For Christ"? Nobody ever watches movies I suggest, lol but...even so...you might! If anything, it might make you see some things differently.
I do believe God want's us to be logical, thinking beings..."Isa.1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
"1) to believe (John 3:16-21) and (Mark 16:15-16)- Here I simply see Truth. Why wouldn't a Good and sound minded God tell His followers share that the only true and right way is ONE way ONE truth , ONE life, and only ONE TRUE God, not thousands of ways to many gods...I found my spiritual serch (initially) chaotic!
2) no blasphemy (Mark 3:28-30) <---I have personally come to believe that this means to attribute an action or power to satan that which is from God Himself. I could be wrong but it is how I view it.
I hope you will not let anything sour you on "Christianity" satan comes in the open door and has a ball with our minds. He is so good at what he does. Don't let him take any more of your peace.
First believe and then you WILL recieve.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb. 11:6
Peace,
Nancy
 

Triumph1300

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As for the Muslims, their Koran acknowledges Jesua as the messiah but then contradicts everything He said..

How will Jesus judge them? I can't sau with any certainty, but I'm confident it will be with mercy.. Same for other religions... I think those who naturally are humble and loving people will have the chance to see and choose Life, if not in this life, then before the throne of Christ.

I disagree. The decision needs to be made during this life. Not before the throne of Christ. The Bible says one needs to be born again to receive everlasting life. That's something one needs to do during ones lifetime.
 
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Nancy

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I disagree. The decision needs to be made during this life. Not before the throne of Christ. The Bible says one needs to be born again to receive everlasting life. That's something one needs to do during ones lifetime.

...as long as we still have breath in us. :)
 
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Philip James

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I disagree. The decision needs to be made during this life. Not before the throne of Christ. The Bible says one needs to be born again to receive everlasting life. That's something one needs to do during ones lifetime.
You may be right, but i'll stick with Paul on this one Rom 2:14-16

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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cvanwey

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But you are completely free not to believe the truth... Good luck with that.

I got answers - ask away. But, "we" are not restricted, because I am not. My knowledge is from God. Where did you get your information?

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You can prove nothing. Purposing to use a standard of proof that falls short of the context, doesn't prove anything except that you are operating within limits.

This you cannot say. But you make it obvious that you do not have answers, which I have.

One can only know God if He draws him, and if that person seeks Him, he will find Him.

If you follow men's worldly logic, you will only find men's worldly answers - not God. As for me, I have told you already.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as me proving God to you...sorry, it doesn't work that way. That would be like a thief asking a person to show them their money when they have none. You see, the loot is not mine to show. Or it would be like asking a person on a hill to prove what is on the other side to someone who will not go to the top of the hill and look for themselves.

As for circular logic...it is you who are circling within your own self-imposed limits, not us. We have seen outside the circle...and obviously - you have no idea what we are even talking about.
Indeed, He does not fit into your worldly logic. But I have given you a worldly analogy all the same - and it fits just fine for you to understand what I mean: that is, that the information is beyond your understanding, and you must change your approach if you wish to to attain it.

As for humans writing the bible...it doesn't matter. What matters is that millions have given their witness, that short of human error, agrees over the course of all recorded history. This, even scientifically, is referred to as "the establishment of truth." And thus, it is your "pause" that is suspect.
An interesting question, and I think it deserves more reflection.

Disbelief is the default position, but only when someone says something disagreeable.
For example, if I said you are an intelligent person would you be inclined to question yourself or believe me? Perhaps you would ignore the flattery and wonder about my motives; people are often untrustworthy and will lie for personal gain.

So when deciding to believe something the deeper rhetorical question you need to ask is do you trust the source. As a child everyone starts off naive, trusting implicitly. The world teaches us to distrust, because people will lie for selfish reasons. The dynamics can be more complicated and towers of babel constructed upon false teachings, but it comes down to who we trust.

Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

God being good is a foregone conclusion. There is every reason to implicitly trust the Lord.
An interesting question, and I think it deserves more reflection.

Disbelief is the default position, but only when someone says something disagreeable.
For example, if I said you are an intelligent person would you be inclined to question yourself or believe me? Perhaps you would ignore the flattery and wonder about my motives; people are often untrustworthy and will lie for personal gain.

So when deciding to believe something the deeper rhetorical question you need to ask is do you trust the source. As a child everyone starts off naive, trusting implicitly. The world teaches us to distrust, because people will lie for selfish reasons. The dynamics can be more complicated and towers of babel constructed upon false teachings, but it comes down to who we trust.

Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

God being good is a foregone conclusion. There is every reason to implicitly trust the Lord.

I guess this is where we part ways to trust.?.?.? I read many verses which do not appear to jive or be compatible with shared and known reality? You are saying I should discard any and every logical verified discovery, which flies in the face of the Bible, to instead 'trust' the Bible? I'm to then also be okay with slavery (Exodus 21), be good with women's inequality (1 Timothy 11-12), ignore all scientific opposition to basically all of Genesis (which included all of geology, astronomy, biology, etc..), when my human logic honestly tells me none of this appears morally just or scientifically factual?

So you are basically telling me I should trust THIS book because it says so? Is this what you are effectively saying? If I'm to reduce my logic to that of an unthinking being (to resemble a little chicken), then what is the point of reading the Bible, and abiding by the Bible? But more importantly, how am I supposed to assess that the Bible is actually correct, while all other claimed holy books are not the true and real? If I'm to reduce my belief status to that of a child, I guess it's a good thing I was not born in a Muslim country.
 
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