See my post #40, that debunks water baptism as being our co-savior.
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See my post #40, that debunks water baptism as being our co-savior.
Here’s my debunking of making water into our co-savior:
Per Acts 3:19, it’s the repenting that gets our sins forgiven, backed up by Acts 10, where Peter says those hearing him preach had been filled with the Holy Spirit, and so could then be water baptized, in Acts 10:44-48.
The Holy Spirit is not given to the unsaved, thus they were saved by faith, before water baptism.
Water baptism is the outward washing of the body that can be seen, that is symbolic of the inward washing of regeneration from the Holy Spirit, that can’t be seen.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Thus water baptism is for the already saved, and is not done to get saved.
Shalom.
Per Acts 3:19, it’s the repenting that gets our sins forgiven, backed up by Acts 10, where Peter says those hearing him preach had been filled with the Holy Spirit, and so could then be water baptized, in Acts 10:44-48.
The Holy Spirit is not given to the unsaved, thus they were saved by faith, before water baptism.
Water baptism is the outward washing of the body that can be seen, that is symbolic of the inward washing of regeneration from the Holy Spirit, that can’t be seen.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Thus water baptism is for the already saved, and is not done to get saved.
Shalom.
Actually, speaking in tongues is always the evidence that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit, per Acts 2 and Acts 10, for two examples. And Acts 19.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
BTW after Pentecost, per Acts 19, above, one gets filled with the Holy Spirit, by a spirit filled person laying hands on them.
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Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
Rev_1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Grailhunter
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
I wasn't sure, the point of repentance could have been the point, since there are many here who have disagreed on what exactly repentance means. But I did suspect that water baptism was the point.
I was just clarifying if that is ok with you?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Now the term baptismal regeneration can be defined in different ways, I get that. But the rebirth...the born again...the baptism for the remission of sins...is 100% accurate. Even the concept of the "new man" is critically important to understand that the person that was...is no more. Which is the whole act of immersion and raising from the water...dying with Christ and raised with Him. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him
Not sure why you're saying forgiveness, Acts 2:38 says, remission.
Grailhunter
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
A — 1: ἄφεσις
(Strong's #859 — Noun Feminine — aphesis — af'-es-is )
"a dismissal, release" (from aphiemi, B), is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated "remission" in Matthew 26:28; Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 5:31 (AV, "forgiveness"); 10:43; 13:38, RV (AV, "forgiveness"); 26:18 (ditto); Hebrews 9:22; 10:18 . See FORGIVE , B, and A, No. 1.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 9.22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
If sins can be forgiven by water baptism then there was no need for Jesus to have shed His blood on the cross
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Remission of sins vs forgiveness of sins.
“Remission” means “the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty”. “Forgive” means “to stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for an offence, flaw, or mistake”.
Remission is the more precise term for the cancellation of sin.
- Matthew 26:28: “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
- Mark 1:4: “John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
- Luke 1:77: “To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,….”
- Luke 3:3: “And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;….”
- Luke 24:47: “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
- Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
- Acts 10:43: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
- Romans 3:25: “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;….”
- Hebrews 9:22: “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”
- Hebrews 10:18: “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
You might find this very neat in learning about how the Lord Jesus Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.
Young's Literal Translation
'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,
Matthew 3:11
John the baptize - indeed baptized people with water.
Be he who after me is coming is mightier than I: John the Baptist.
with the Holy Spirit ~
and with fire.
Young's Literal Translation
'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,
Matthew 3:11
John the baptize - indeed baptized people with water.
Usage: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.
HELPS Word-studies
907 baptízō – properly, "submerge" (Souter); hence, baptize, to immerse (literally, "dip under"). 907 (baptízō) implies submersion ("immersion"), in contrast to 472 /antéxomai ("sprinkle").
to repentance / reformation it says here in the youngs. - Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance. See 3340 /metanoeō ("repent").HELPS Word-studies
907 baptízō – properly, "submerge" (Souter); hence, baptize, to immerse (literally, "dip under"). 907 (baptízō) implies submersion ("immersion"), in contrast to 472 /antéxomai ("sprinkle").
Be he who after me is coming is mightier than I: John the Baptist.
He is speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ now, who was proclaimed to be coming in their day according to the scriptures in which were the old testament, which was on written scrolls.
John is saying there is one that is coming who is mightier than I.
Of who not even John was worthy to bear the sandels.John is saying there is one that is coming who is mightier than I.
John was way less that he could not even to bear the sandels of the one who is coming.
He shall baptize you - 907 baptízō – properly, "submerge" (Souter); hence, baptize, to immerse (literally, "dip under"). 907 (baptízō) implies submersion ("immersion"), in contrast to 472 /antéxomai ("sprinkle").
with the Holy Spirit ~
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).
The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).
The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]
and with fire.
Usage: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.
[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.
[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Read....Association between baptism and the remission of sin is clear, now the power of that certainly comes from Christ.
People debate and get hung up on what process does what....it is like defining the nature of God...we do not have that type of comprehension. So you get into the debates if baptism is necessary, is communion necessary. What exactly does all that do? Only God knows. Don't be baptized and do not participate in communion and in the end you will be able to tell us.
- Matthew 26:28: “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
- Mark 1:4: “John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
- Luke 1:77: “To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,….”
- Luke 3:3: “And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;….”
- Luke 24:47: “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
- Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
- Acts 10:43: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
- Romans 3:25: “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;….”
- Hebrews 9:22: “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”
- Hebrews 10:18: “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Do you only accept that versions like the KJV have got this right? in #55 I have shown that almost all recent English translation have "forgiveness"
LOL! In a way they are aren't they? Altering minds to follow a track away from spiritual truth.
Did you watch the movie, God's Not Dead?
Kevin Sorbo played a college professor, lapsed Christian, an apostate, turned atheist.
I would wonder if the writer of the screenplay was using the actual New Testament professor and author Bart Ehrman as his model for the Sorbo character?
What I find shocking with regard to BE is, he remains tenured at a Christian college.
He's of that intention you refered to. Leading students and consumers of his books, away from the faith.
Someone I had as a client years ago said their son back then was considering attending his coarse at UNC Chapel Hill.
On that day the son had taken to visit the campus and sit in on perspective coarses he happened into BH's class. The start of a new semester.
Professor Eherman opened his personal intro to himself and the coarse by asking people to raise their hand if they believed in God.
It's a NT studies series so of course hands went up all over the hall.
BH then told them, by the time they had finished his coarse they would be atheists.
My clients son ended up enrolling in Princeton's theological seminary. BH's alma matter.
Except the two terms are the same, per the word FORGIVENESS here:
Act 13:38 Be G2077 it known G1110 unto you G5213 therefore, G3767 men G435 and brethren, G80 that G3754 through G1223 this man G5127 is preached G2605 unto you G5213 the forgiveness G859 of sins: G266
G859 (Strong)
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.
Total KJV occurrences: 17
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