ADDING WORKS:

[GodsGrace]

I did read that article. Other than the "Government Theory" (which is totally false), each of the other so-called "theories" take just one aspect of the sacrifice of Christ and ignore all the others. But a true biblical understand of the death of Christ would include all of the things mentioned, and unify all aspects. As you can see, the theologians are sometimes too clever for their own good.

I had actually been saying this all along.
I said that every theory has some aspect of the atonement in it..
no one has all.
Each one can be described from the bible....
but different aspects become more important than others.

I don't have a problem with the fact that they've been separated.
I think it's due to on-going revelation; from the Early church to today.
This is why I don't care to debate this...every opinion is correct.

Since you read it, I won't say more,,,just that the Penal Substitution Theory is my lease favored. It demonstrates a wrathful God...whereas the Satisfaction Theory is much softer... ( so, of course they have to be separate).

 

[H. Richard]

No, the Bible explicitly says in Revelation 22:14 we are granted entrance to heaven based on whether we have obeyed God's commandments - and since the carnal heart cannot obey God even it it wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV), there lies the relevance of obedience to salvation:

the evidence of a converted heart.

Antinomianists refuse to believe it - because they want Jesus but also their drugs, booze, idolatrous music, gay butt sex, etc.

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

 

[GodsGrace]

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

@Phoneman777 is 100% right HR.

It's unfortunate you can't see it...
know why?

Not only are you putting your own soul in danger..
but you are endangering the soul of OTHERS...and for this you WILL
reply to God.
James 3:1

God demands obedience.
The moral Law will NEVER be abolished....the 10 commandments and all of Jesus' laws.
God is just and moral....He had originally made us to be in His image.
That means that, since we fell, we depend on Jesus for our salvation...
but we must still be just and moral....Jesus helps us.

 

[H. Richard]

@Phoneman777 is 100% HR.

It's unfortunate you can't see it...
know why?

Not only are you putting your own soul in danger..
but you are endangering the soul of OTHERS...and for this you WILL
reply to God.
James 3:1

God demands obedience.
The moral Law will NEVER be abolished....the 10 commandments and all of Jesus' laws.
God is just and moral....He had originally made us to be in His image.
That means that, since we fell, we depend on Jesus for our salvation...
but we must still be just and moral....Jesus helps us.

So you say "I am endangering the souls of others" How about you? Aren't you trying to get those under grace to change to being under the law?

I see you have joined those that think they are the only ones that know the truth and want to condemn anyone that doesn't believe what you believe.
Perhaps you should read Romans 8:1 again.

 

[Enoch111]

Since you read it, I won't say more,,,just that the Penal Substitution Theory is my lease favored. It demonstrates a wrathful God..

Well there is absolutely no question about the wrath of God against sin and sinners: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom 1:18)

Therefore we read this in Isaiah 53:
4 Surely he [Christ] hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

People need to hear about the wrath of God against sin, and how Christ took that wrath upon Himself at the cross.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

<Taking a big picture approach in this response, being mindful to define words here>

Nobody is saved by the Law of Moses, nobody thinks that, so that idea can get tossed.

A person is saved by Christ's sacrifice and their acceptance/faith in Him. Nobody is getting to Heaven without Christ.

But Christ did not suffer and die for so that a person can flippantly say "yeah I believe in Christ" while still kissing Satan's feat. Christ told us that if we love Him, we should keep His commandments, and a disciple (aka follower of Christ) should indeed do that. Yes, such following is going to be incredibly messy and there will be a mountain of mess ups along the way. But somebody who loves Christ with all of their heart & mind & might & soul should at least be trying to put some heart/mind/might/soul into that endeavor-- empowered by Christ Himself.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you say "I am endangering the souls of others" How about you? Aren't you trying to get those under grace to change to being under the law?

I see you have joined those that think they are the only ones that know the truth and want to condemn anyone that doesn't believe what you believe.
Perhaps you should read Romans 8:1 again.

Did you ever hear of Paschal's Wager?

If you're wrong...
many will end up lost because you taught easy believism...that it's not necessary to do ANYTHING except believe. This is not taught in scripture. It IS taught that we are to obey God and follow HIS commandments and rules.

If I'm wrong...
no harm done.
There certainly is no harm is obeying God...and even if we could have lived without obeying Him,,,it makes no difference; in fact, we're better off than anyone else!

You make a distinction between
grace and
law.

Why is there a distinction?
The Law of Moses was abolished with the advent of Christ.
Do YOU know any Christians that are keeping the 613 laws of Moses?
I don't.

But do you also believe the 10 commandments have been done away with?
What did Jesus mean in Mathew 5:17
What did He mean in Matthew 5:20

I read Romans 8:1 so?
It says that our life IN JESUS has set us free from the life
of the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do,,,God did by sending His Son.

We cannot be saved by ONLY knowing the commandments because we cannot keep them due to our SIN NATURE. So GOD sent His only Son to FREE US from the cycle of sin and death.

So now WE CAN FOLLOW GOD'S laws because we follow the Holy Spirit and not our old SIN NATURE.
Romans 8:4

It DOES NOT SAY that we're allowed to sin.
Please read all of chapter 8 again.
Paul said in every one of his letters that we are to obey God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well there is absolutely no question about the wrath of God against sin and sinners: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom 1:18)

Therefore we read this in Isaiah 53:
4 Surely he [Christ] hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

People need to hear about the wrath of God against sin, and how Christ took that wrath upon Himself at the cross.

OK. This is what was believed after the reformation...not before.
But it's all good.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Did you ever hear of Paschal's Wager?

If truth were determined by Pascal's wager, then the most logical thing to do would be to go around to every group and ask "what happens to those that don't believe as you do?" and then join the one that describes the most horrible fate for non-believers.

 

[H. Richard]

When will those that think we are to keep the law of Moses realize that they CAN NOT KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES IN ORDER TO GET SALVATION OR EVEN TO KEEP IT ONCE IT HAS BEEN OBTAINED. It is clear in the scriptures that no man can keep the Law of Moses. But it seems that the religious think they are sinless and want to bind those under grace to keep the law when no man can keep it?

The truth is that Jesus set us free from the condemnation of sins when He paid for them. My flesh is sinful and so is everyone else's. But Jesus has set us free from the condemnation of the sins of the flesh. According to the scriptures He paid for the sins of the whole world but the religious do not want Him to pay for mine. Since He paid for the sins of the whole world why do the religious want to make us feel we are condemned by them?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When will those that think we are to keep the law of Moses realize that they CAN NOT KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES IN ORDER TO GET SALVATION OR EVEN TO KEEP IT ONCE IT HAS BEEN OBTAINED. It is clear in the scriptures that no man can keep the Law of Moses. But it seems that the religious think they are sinless and want to bind those under grace to keep the law when no man can keep it?

The truth is that Jesus set us free from the condemnation of sins when He paid for them. My flesh is sinful and so is everyone else's. But Jesus has set us free from the condemnation of the sins of the flesh. According to the scriptures He paid for the sins of the whole world but the religious do not want Him to pay for mine. Since He paid for the sins of the whole world why do the religious want to make us feel we are condemned by them?

ummm...

Nobody is saved by the Law of Moses, nobody thinks that, so that idea can get tossed.

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777 is 100% HR.

It's unfortunate you can't see it...
know why?

Not only are you putting your own soul in danger..
but you are endangering the soul of OTHERS...and for this you WILL
reply to God.
James 3:1

God demands obedience.
The moral Law will NEVER be abolished....the 10 commandments and all of Jesus' laws.
God is just and moral....He had originally made us to be in His image.
That means that, since we fell, we depend on Jesus for our salvation...
but we must still be just and moral....Jesus helps us.

Pretty sure the ones who are endangering themselves and others are those who break God's Commandments and teach others to do that, as well, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

Jesus said He "kept My Father's commandments..." so by your logic, He had no faith in the One in Whom He was to place it, right? Wow, if God's people are to "have the faith of Jesus" in order to be saved...and Jesus had no faith...we're all in big trouble

 

[H. Richard]

Jesus said He "kept My Father's commandments..." so by your logic, He had no faith in the One in Whom He was to place it, right? Wow, if God's people are to "have the faith of Jesus" in order to be saved...and Jesus had no faith...we're all in big trouble

I never said any of that. so I wiil not address it. However where did you get the idea that you keep the commandments?

 

[H. Richard]

Pretty sure the ones who are endangering themselves and others are those who break God's Commandments and teach others to do that, as well, right?

Salvation has nothing to do with mankind keeping the commandments. Mankind has never been able to keep them so God (Jesus) kept them for us. And if He kept them for us why are you saying a person has to do it too? To God be all the glory.

 

[Episkopos]

I never said any of that. so I wiil not address it. However where did you get the idea that you keep the commandments?

The commandments of God are to love as Jesus loved...to be holy as God is holy...and be perfect as God is perfect.

God said to Abram....walk before Me and be perfect.

How much more then can God expect from us who walk in Christ and the power of His resurrection?

Put more simply ...he who loves has fulfilled the commandment. God is love.

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation has nothing to do with mankind keeping the commandments. Mankind has never been able to keep them so God (Jesus) kept them for us. And if He kept them for us why are you saying a person has to do it too? To God be all the glory.

Grace empowers us to do as Jesus did. So then of ourselves we can do nothing. But in Christ we can do ALL things.

Do you not deny this?

As He is so are we in this world. No difference...when we are IN Him. In Him is NO sin.

So then WE become the righteousness of God IN Him. Not...Jesus keeps the commandments instead of us. That's an unbelievers stance.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jesus said He "kept My Father's commandments..." so by your logic, He had no faith in the One in Whom He was to place it, right? Wow, if God's people are to "have the faith of Jesus" in order to be saved...and Jesus had no faith...we're all in big trouble

Grace empowers us to do as Jesus did. So then of ourselves we can do nothing. But in Christ we can do ALL things.

Do you not deny this?

As He is so are we in this world. No difference...when we are IN Him. In Him is NO sin.

So then WE become the righteousness of God IN Him. Not...Jesus keeps the commandments instead of us. That's an unbelievers stance.

Salvation has nothing to do with mankind keeping the commandments. Mankind has never been able to keep them so God (Jesus) kept them for us. And if He kept them for us why are you saying a person has to do it too? To God be all the glory.

The three of you are majorly talking past each other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pretty sure the ones who are endangering themselves and others are those who break God's Commandments and teach others to do that, as well, right?

Absolutely.
God demands obedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

The three of you are majorly talking past each other.

No.
@Episkopos is biblical
@Phoneman777 is biblical ---in their theology.

I cannot recognize @H. Richard 's statement as being biblical.