ADDING WORKS:

[Hidden In Him]

I don't think it took that long. As @justbyfaith pointed out, Peter was preaching the gospel of grace in Acts 10, and in Acts 2:38 it also says that he was preaching being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I forgot to mention it @GodsGrace, but Peter spoke the above words on the Day of Pentecost, 50 some odd days removed from the time of the resurrection.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's also in Isaiah 53.

It's a foreshadowing of Jesus.
The Apostles couldn't put everything together right away.
Eventually they did,,,I'm not denying that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think it took that long. As @justbyfaith pointed out, Peter was preaching the gospel of grace in Acts 10, and in Acts 2:38 it also says that he was preaching being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not explaining myself properly.
Paul went into the desert for 3 years before confronting the Apostles and disciples.
I'm only saying that no one really understood what happened with Jesus going to the cross. The revelation of it came about in time....I'd say about 10 years after Jesus' resurrection.

They were heartbroken at His death.
They feared for their life.
They could hardly accept that they saw Him alive again.

I'm sure you don't believe that they understood what we do today 50 days after Jesus ascended? They knew the basics...they understood He was the true Messiah. They knew to repeat what He had taught them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course. Do you think that makes it invalid?

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles into all truth, and to teach them what they could not formerly bear.

NO!
I just made a statement.

 

[farouk]

It's a foreshadowing of Jesus.
The Apostles couldn't put everything together right away.
Eventually they did,,,I'm not denying that.

It's a truly stirring chapter, Isaiah 53.

 

[GodsGrace]

I forgot to mention it @GodsGrace, but Peter spoke the above words on the Day of Pentecost, 50 some odd days removed from the time of the resurrection.

Yes, right. Acts 10:34.....
Peter said:
The Jews are not the only people God wants.
In every nation there are those that worship Him and do good deeds and are acceptable to Him.
We have peace through Jesus, the awaited Messiah.

OK.
But think of all we know of Jesus today!
So much more.

Even just the atonement theories which are being spoken of in another thread.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, right. Acts 10:34.....
Peter said:
The Jews are not the only people God wants.
In every nation there are those that worship Him and do good deeds and are acceptable to Him.
We have peace through Jesus, the awaited Messiah.

OK.
But think of all we know of Jesus today!
So much more.

Even just the atonement theories which are being spoken of in another thread.

I think this would be one place where our friend H.Richard might be more on target. To know exactly what additional revelation was developed regarding Christ and when, that becomes more a matter of speculation. Might make an interesting topic for discussion, if particular passages were presented as a foundation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this would be one place where our friend H.Richard might be more on target. To know exactly what additional revelation was developed regarding Christ and when, that becomes more a matter of speculation. Might make an interesting topic for discussion, if particular passages were presented as a foundation.

Will reply when at computer.
Hope I remember....

 

[H. Richard]

Of course. Do you think that makes it invalid?

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles into all truth, and to teach them what they could not formerly bear.

Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles with a gospel of grace which was hidden in God.

 

[H. Richard]

Well I'm sorry to hear about this, but what you have to understand here is that you influence people when you post things like this publicly on forums, and my replies are no game. Because of your ability to influence people, I am holding you accountable to prove that what you teach lines up with scripture. I overlooked it the first time, but since you are again accusing me of playing games, that's actually an insult to my character and you shouldn't be doing it. I've given you no reason to insult me, and this is not a game.

Now about your reply:


This passage is speaking of a time before Christ had even been crucified yet. So of course they didn't understand yet. What I am asking you is regarding your claims in the post I initially responded to:


You were claiming that James was still teaching that the church was under law, so my first response was to ask you what you think the apostles would have believed about why Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified before the time Paul began preaching the gospel of grace. The Book of James is estimated to have been written around 45 A.D., which means that he was - according to your position - still not yet preaching the gospel of grace as of this time. That's 15 years removed from the time Christ was crucified. Now James was the head of the church in Jerusalem when he wrote his letter, so he would most certainly have not been the only one teaching something other than the gospel of grace. If not, the church would have removed him from his place of authority for teaching heresy.

So I am asking you what then would the church have been teaching during this entire time regarding why the Lord Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be crucified. If your answer is that "there is nothing in scripture," that would suggest they simply didn't bother answering the question amongst themselves for more than 15 years, sort of like ignoring the elephant in the room. Orthodox Christianity has an answer for what they would have believed about this question, and that is that James preached salvation by grace through Christ's sacrifice. This is why his letter was accepted as cannon. But you are arguing that James (and apparently the entire church for at least 15 years) was teaching something different.

Don't you think it behooves you to lay out for us what the church believed about why He allowed Himself to be crucified, if for 15 years they didn't know the purpose of it was to shed His blood to atone for man's sins? And why would they be completely in the dark during that entire time?

You can't make a reply to the subject of the OP so you just plaster the word """YOU""" all over your replies.

All I have written about is that Jesus was on a cross to pay for all the sins of the world and it seems that that is heresy according to you. That means you think you are the only one that has truth. There are some on this forum who appreciate what I have found in scriptures and write about. I suppose you will tell them that they are wrong in what they believe because it is not what you believe. I have met many that think they are religious policeman on forums. They are the very ones that would crucify anyone that does not believe what they believe. They are the Pharisees of today. They will murder anyone that they can't put down.

There are those that teach a blended gospel of works plus faith and they are the ones that will send many to a very hot place.

Now I suppose you will follow me around with all your satanic hate and vindictive words trying to elevate yourself above me. That is okay with me. You are not my judge.
Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

 

[Hidden In Him]

Now I suppose you will follow me around with all your satanic hate and vindictive words trying to elevate yourself above me.

For the record, I was simply correcting you in your doctrine.

 

[Enoch111]

Even just the atonement theories which are being spoken of in another thread.

Why do you keep mentioning "atonement theories"? There is only one Bible doctrine of the atoning work of Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

Even though I have shown that James was certainly not writing to those under grace and that he got some things wrong the religious works crowd still cling to their traditions. They will not see that placing their faith in works will not save them and as Paul writes they are under a curse. Why???? Because they trample under foot the “:completed” work of Jesus on the cross.

Paul was in good company:

• Paul: "...not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law..."

• Peter: "...seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit..." (What is truth? "...thy law is the truth...all Thy commandments are truth." "I am the...truth..." - Psalm 119:142;151 KJV; John 14:6 KJV)

• Jesus: "...break any one of these least commandments and teach men so, the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." (Interpreting this to mean the these disobedient will eventually go to heaven is an Antinomianist pipe dream - it means when the obedient up there look upon Antinomianists down here, they'll speak of them as "the least".)

• John: "Behold, I come quickly and My reward is with Me to give to every man according as his work shall be. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they which do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates to the city." (Revelation 22:12-14 KJV)

The message Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and James is identical: "We're saved by grace, but judged by our works, because our works are the evidence of whether we've been saved by grace."

On the path of Righteousness by Faith in Christ, the devil doesn't care if he gets us to fall in your left ditch of License or the right ditch of Legalism, as long as we fall. Again, we're saved by grace, but judged by our works.

 

[Phoneman777]

For the record, I was simply correcting you in your doctrine.

Ever notice the favorite opprobrium of leftists for those who disagree with them is "hate"???

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Did Paul also "hang works around the necks of those in Christ?" He's saying the same thing James is saying. While we are not saved by works, works are the fruit of faith. Paul is clear that they cannot be separated. If you have received faith, you were also created in Christ Jesus for good works. It's a package deal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It seems that one of the silent questions here is: "What constitutes 'works'?" How many old ladies do I have to help cross the street before I can consider it enough? Works are open-ended--how many do I need in my "works bank account"? And if I am keeping track of my works, howbeit that I am relying solely and trustingly on God, who "prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them"?

Look at the Five Crowns which will be given as rewards to believers, at the Bema seat of Christ. Not one of them is given for any good deeds--but rather for what faith has shaped in them, through the Holy Spirit. If we have true faith ("even as small as a mustard seed"), will we have works? Of course--that is the evidence of the Holy Spirit working in us to give us hearts which are right before God. But we need to be VERY wary of flying the works flag and pointing to others who cannot provide a list of their works as "easy believers". Jesus cited those who would point to their works ("Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name."). They were apparently trying to use them to justify themselves in spite of having broken God's laws. An "easy-believer" as the name was originally applied, were those who professed belief but continued in persistent and regular sin--NOT those who had sincere faith but lacked any particular works to which they could point. Jesus detested the hypocrisy of the religious folk of His day and this warning He gave in Matthew 7 is yet another example of how we fail to keep even the simplest requirements of faith when we rely on works for any justification at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this would be one place where our friend H.Richard might be more on target. To know exactly what additional revelation was developed regarding Christ and when, that becomes more a matter of speculation. Might make an interesting topic for discussion, if particular passages were presented as a foundation.

Hi H,
We don't need passages.
The revelation can start at the very beginning of Christianity.

The Trinity is better understood after time.

Jesus' divinity is understood over time.

The bible speaks of body and spirit giving rise to gnosticism...we know, after study at the very beginning, that this is not Christian.

We understand the atonement theories better. Jesus' death was not fully understood at the beginning. This took reconciling the O.T. with what happened to Jesus.

Can't think of anything else right now,,,but I know there's more.

 

[H. Richard]

Ok, buddy. This is where I stop reading. You are once again hurling unfounded insults at me that are utterly without basis.

Lesson learned. Responding to one of your threads was a mistake I will likely never make again.
I will talk to you again in Heaven if you make it. Maybe by then you will know how to behave yourself.
God bless.

Paul was in good company:

• Paul: "...not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law..."

• Peter: "...seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit..." (What is truth? "...thy law is the truth...all Thy commandments are truth." "I am the...truth..." - Psalm 119:142;151 KJV; John 14:6 KJV)

• Jesus: "...break any one of these least commandments and teach men so, the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." (Interpreting this to mean the these disobedient will eventually go to heaven is an Antinomianist pipe dream - it means when the obedient up there look upon Antinomianists down here, they'll speak of them as "the least".)

• John: "Behold, I come quickly and My reward is with Me to give to every man according as his work shall be. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they which do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates to the city." (Revelation 22:12-14 KJV)

The message Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and James is identical: "We're saved by grace, but judged by our works, because our works are the evidence of whether we've been saved by grace."

On the path of Righteousness by Faith in Christ, the devil doesn't care if he gets us to fall in your left ditch of License or the right ditch of Legalism, as long as we fall. Again, we're saved by grace, but judged by our works.

We are judged by our faith in what Jesus did on the cross. His work and not ours. But the religious refuse to believe it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you keep mentioning "atonement theories"? There is only one Bible doctrine of the atoning work of Christ.

Oh my goodness!!!
You never read my link???

I don't really post links...
so when I do...YOU SHOULD READ IT!

There are many atonement theories...
all straight from the bible.

Here it is again...
There's a lot on this, but I like this link because
it's concise...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison


Please read it.
Let me know what you think.

It's a known fact that there's more than one theory...

 

[Enoch111]

Please read it.
Let me know what you think.

I did read that article. Other than the "Government Theory" (which is totally false), each of the other so-called "theories" take just one aspect of the sacrifice of Christ and ignore all the others. But a true biblical understand of the death of Christ would include all of the things mentioned, and unify all aspects. As you can see, the theologians are sometimes too clever for their own good.

 

[Phoneman777]

We are judged by our faith in what Jesus did on the cross. His work and not ours. But the religious refuse to believe it.

No, the Bible explicitly says in Revelation 22:14 we are granted entrance to heaven based on whether we have obeyed God's commandments - and since the carnal heart cannot obey God even it it wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV), there lies the relevance of obedience to salvation:

the evidence of a converted heart.

Antinomianists refuse to believe it - because they want Jesus but also their drugs, booze, idolatrous music, gay butt sex, etc.