ADDING WORKS:

[Jane_Doe22]

No.
@Episkopos is biblical
@Phoneman777 is biblical ---in their theology.

I cannot recognize @H. Richard 's statement as being biblical.

From where I'm standing it seems that @H. Richard is arguing that:
- we are not saved by keeping the Law of Moses (animal sacrifices etc)
- we are not saved without Christ
I don't see you (or anyone else) disagreeing with those points.
I also don't see anyone arguing that "a dispele of Christ has the right to go around murdering, fornicating, and kissing Satan's feet". Rather everyone seems to be in argument that a disciple of Christ should be doing as Christ tells them to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

From where I'm standing it seems that @H. Richard is arguing that:
- we are not saved by keeping the Law of Moses (animal sacrifices etc)
- we are not saved without Christ
I don't see you (or anyone else) disagreeing with those points.
I also don't see anyone arguing that "a dispele of Christ has the right to go around murdering, fornicating, and kissing Satan's feet". Rather everyone seems to be in argument that a disciple of Christ should be doing as Christ tells them to do.

I picked a post at random.
No. 62
Here's what @H. Richard posted:

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

Everyone on this thread is a Christian.
I don't believe any of us are under the Mosaic Law.
No one said they are.
Christians are NOT under the Mosaic Law but under grace.

So if we all know this...and someone writes what H. Richards writes,
and YOU were a new Christian...HOW would YOU understand it?

I'd understand that I'm not required to follow the laws of God...
the 10 commandments.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I picked a post at random.
No. 62
Here's what @H. Richard posted:

The children of God are not under the Law. They are obedient to keeping their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Religious people will always say that we are to be obedient to keeping the law because they have no faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They only have faith in what they do. The truth is that the religious only see sin in others and refuse to see that they sin too.

Everyone on this thread is a Christian.
I don't believe any of us are under the Mosaic Law.
No one said they are.
Christians are NOT under the Mosaic Law but under grace.

So if we all know this...and someone writes what H. Richards writes,
and YOU were a new Christian...HOW would YOU understand it?

I'd understand that I'm not required to follow the laws of God...
the 10 commandments.

Honestly, I see the two of you are during for the exact same thing, and would see a new Christian being really turned off by this entire discussion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, I see the two of you are during for the exact same thing, and would see a new Christian being really turned off by this entire discussion.

Good.
Because at least he won't be following a gospel that doesn't exist.
And anyone with some common sense would know they have God's rules to follow.
Only those that DO NOT want to believe this, look for those verses that SEEM to state that we should count ONLY on our faith in JESUS.
NO! Jesus said TO DO...not to ONLY have faith in Him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Good.
Because at least he won't be following a gospel that doesn't exist.
And anyone with some common sense would know they have God's rules to follow.
Only those that DO NOT want to believe this, look for those verses that SEEM to state that we should count ONLY on our faith in JESUS.
NO! Jesus said TO DO...not to ONLY have faith in Him.

Again, I see everyone here arguing for the exact same thing.
But if that's what you want to do, it's your time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, I see everyone here arguing for the exact same thing.
But if that's what you want to do, it's your time.

Yes Jane.
I've been here on these forums for over 4 years now.
If you notice, I don't really like to argue except for ideas that have to do with
soteriology.

I'll leave the why up to you to figure out.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm not explaining myself properly.
Paul went into the desert for 3 years before confronting the Apostles and disciples.
I'm only saying that no one really understood what happened with Jesus going to the cross. The revelation of it came about in time....I'd say about 10 years after Jesus' resurrection.

They were heartbroken at His death.
They feared for their life.
They could hardly accept that they saw Him alive again.

I'm sure you don't believe that they understood what we do today 50 days after Jesus ascended? They knew the basics...they understood He was the true Messiah. They knew to repeat what He had taught them.

Hmmm...I do think they knew much more than us 50 days after the ascension. If I knew as much as the apostles knew and saw, I would be walking in that same power as them, and I'm not.

But I believe scripture says there will come a latter rain. And I believe at that time we will stop talking about theories and begin walking in that same power.

We will be killed for it. We won't be treated better than our Lord was treated.

But its okay because we won't be killed a moment before God allows it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Ever notice the favorite opprobrium of leftists for those who disagree with them is "hate"???

I decided just to take it as him having a moment of weakness, LoL. We all have them : )

 

[Episkopos]

From where I'm standing it seems that @H. Richard is arguing that:
- we are not saved by keeping the Law of Moses (animal sacrifices etc)
- we are not saved without Christ
I don't see you (or anyone else) disagreeing with those points.
I also don't see anyone arguing that "a dispele of Christ has the right to go around murdering, fornicating, and kissing Satan's feet". Rather everyone seems to be in argument that a disciple of Christ should be doing as Christ tells them to do.

Actually HR teaches that we are not to OBEY Christ...just make Him our sacrifice. Otherwise it's works according to him. Ask him yourself.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Again, I see everyone here arguing for the exact same thing.
But if that's what you want to do, it's your time.

Jane, we're not all talking about the same thing in this thread at all. Go back and read my exchanges with H. Richard beginning in Post #11. He teaches that the entire church was in the dark about Christ's atonement for the first 15 years of Christianity, and that the apostles were therefore teaching something entirely different from what Paul preached in his letters.

 

[justbyfaith]

If I'm wrong...
no harm done.

Actually, there is much harm done if people believe your words, because you are wrong....

If anyone trusts in their works to save them (whether they believe they receive salvation by works initially or whether they think that they are maintaining their salvation by their works), they are trusting in the wrong thing and will not be saved by it.

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I don't believe any of us are under the Mosaic Law.

If you are attempting to obtain (or maintain) your salvation by works, then you are under the Mosaic law and must keep every line and precept in order to be saved (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

 

[epostle]

You see, this should be an indication that there may be a flaw in your theology. Again, you ought to be able to give a defense. It's not as if I'm being ugly. I'm simply asking logical questions that need to be answered for your position to gain any credibility.
I didn't ask why He went to the cross. My specific question was:
So are you saying this is what they believed the purpose was for why He allowed Himself to be crucified? Yes or no?

They didn't understand why He allowed Himself to be crucified until after He opened the scriptures to them on the road to Emmaus.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They didn't understand why He allowed Himself to be crucified until after He opened the scriptures to them on the road to Emmaus.

Hi Epostle. Long time, no see.

Yes. It seems evident enough from v.25-27 (of Luke 24):

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.

This would have surely included explaining to them the Isaiah 53 passage:

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by Him and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)

 

[Enoch111]

From where I'm standing it seems that @H. Richard is arguing that:
- we are not saved by keeping the Law of Moses (animal sacrifices etc)
- we are not saved without Christ
I don't see you (or anyone else) disagreeing with those points.

What you seem to have missed is H. Richard's beef with James and his epistle. Indeed for a long time he has been pushing the idea that James was not writing to born again believers but to Jews under the Law of Moses! In other words Christians, just tear the book of James out of the NT! So he is following in the foosteps of Martin Luther, who foolishly called the epistle of James "an epistle of straw".

Now please note carefully what he said in the OP:'What seems to be obvious is that those that teach a child of God MUST have works to show their faith have hung the statement of James that “faith without works is dead” around the necks of those “IN CHRIST” who believe in Jesus‘ work on the cross.'

So what he is trying to promote is the idea that there is a conflict between the necessity of good works from Christians and believing on the finished work of Christ. And that is TOTALLY FALSE. He is manufacturing his own theology, and thinks this means *adding* works to salvation by grace through faith.

James is very blunt. If a person claims to have saving faith in Christ and does absolutely nothing after that (no good works), he did not have saving faith to begin with. Why? Paul gives us the answer in Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, there is much harm done if people believe your words, because you are wrong....

If anyone trusts in their works to save them (whether they believe they receive salvation by works initially or whether they think that they are maintaining their salvation by their works), they are trusting in the wrong thing and will not be saved by it.

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



If you are attempting to obtain (or maintain) your salvation by works, then you are under the Mosaic law and must keep every line and precept in order to be saved (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

I've answered the above many times.

Perhaps the following could be of help:

Philippians 1

Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Just as He did with the thief on the cross.

Philippians 3

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.

15All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well. 16Nevertheless, we must live up to what we have already attained.

What knowledge one has about the Lord and His ways we are to walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Through God's words we gain an understanding that God is the one who gives the gift of knowledge- that is an understanding or awareness of something. The Lord however, grants knowledge to those who have an honest relationship with him.

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

John 14

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Revelation 14

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

and ... He will help us in our walk to keep them because He loves us.

The commandments are about love. Nothing legalistic about loving the Lord.

God is love.

 

[bbyrd009]

When will those that think we are to keep the law of Moses realize that they CAN NOT KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES IN ORDER TO GET SALVATION OR EVEN TO KEEP IT ONCE IT HAS BEEN OBTAINED. It is clear in the scriptures that no man can keep the Law of Moses. But it seems that the religious think they are sinless and want to bind those under grace to keep the law when no man can keep it?

The truth is that Jesus set us free from the condemnation of sins when He paid for them. My flesh is sinful and so is everyone else's. But Jesus has set us free from the condemnation of the sins of the flesh. According to the scriptures He paid for the sins of the whole world but the religious do not want Him to pay for mine. Since He paid for the sins of the whole world why do the religious want to make us feel we are condemned by them?

because you have removed confession from your salvation, HR, pretty obviously. You "believe" as you do Bc you will not confess, so you love it when your scribes change "have faith" to "believe," and you can just post durdur observations here like you know something and then steadfastly ignore any rebuttals.

And wadr your playing the victim will work, too, for a while, ok. As long as you also ignore that i even admitted that you are likely a better-hearted person than i am and have less to confess anyway, but see you can't even read that, you never even saw that, right? Bc that interferes with your victimhood, huh HR.


so you just keep playing your game, ok, with your half-Bible, and pretend that Nehushtan is going to come save you someday, HR. Not that i am anyone but as i have also already admitted you are already forgiven anyway, the whole world is, and it won't save them, nor you.

Nehushtan will not save you Bc you have guilt in your heart and will not come to the altar and confession leads to salvation, see, that thing you will not do, else your whole theology falls into a pile, right? Don't worry, it will be wildly popular; for a minute anyway

Easier to just ignore me and play the victim, huh?

 

[H. Richard]

The commandments of God are to love as Jesus loved...to be holy as God is holy...and be perfect as God is perfect.

God said to Abram....walk before Me and be perfect.

How much more then can God expect from us who walk in Christ and the power of His resurrection?

Put more simply ...he who loves has fulfilled the commandment. God is love.

So you think you love as much as God loves and that makes you perfect. I think you have an attitude problem. You obviously, have not read where God says the works of man are as dirty rags. lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Good job HR, Way to whore Scripture once again lol.

For anyone who has not realized the concept yet, just go loan one of your hangers-on ten dollars and then completely forget about ever getting the ten dollars back, but don't tell them that. To you, as far as you are concerned, it was a "gift" right. And strangely, to them also, they would like to consider it a "gift" also, only there's one little thing in the way, see; they are now deathly afraid of the light, and all that is needed for them to leave is for you to appear.

Conflate having faith and belief to your heart's content; let ppl who will not address the other half of Scripture lecture to you, and nod your head and give them likes if you want. All that will be forgiven, right, i tell you that your gay unrepentant pastor here is right about that part, imo. You are forgiven, in the same way Nehushtan forgave the wanderers' unconfessed sin, no problem.

Now just don't read the rest of the story and you'll be fine, just like HR.
And who knows maybe God will be mocked after all

nice knowing y'all, and best of luck with piss on the cross ok

 

[Episkopos]

So you think you love as much as God loves and that makes you perfect. I think you have an attitude problem. You obviously, have not read where God says the works of man are as dirty rags. lol

So your testimony is that you do not have the Holy Spirit working through you. You are as any man without God...but with an opinion ABOUT God.

So you walk in your own power and not by the Spirit.

Your error is so big...because it is fundamental. You are limited to a man's walk WITHOUT God.

You build on that error by assuming that most people who call themselves Christian don't have more then you do. So then you are introducing unbelief into the mix.

I have spoken the truth to you so many times but you are deaf and lack any kind of understanding of the gospel...because you limit humanity to it's own devices as if Jesus never came here in the flesh to perfect the walk in us.

You are making NO difference between a person who is in Christ and one who isn't. Because you don't know what it means to be in Christ. Very beginner's stuff. So you have made a crusade based on ignorance of the life of the Spirit.

Very sad.

Christ is our righteousness. We walk at His level of righteousness when we walk in His presence and power. But this is gobble-di-gook to you.

When we enter into Christ we walk as He walked.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is the power that Jesus offers to us by grace through faith.

This is the power of the gospel.

And He takes us into the perfect walk..which is the walk of Jesus perfected in His humanity and given to us as grace.

Paul calls this..."the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ."

So then this is what you lack...and what you argue against.

 

[Hidden In Him]

For anyone who has not realized the concept yet, just go loan one of your hangers-on ten dollars and then completely forget about ever getting the ten dollars back, but don't tell them that. To you, as far as you are concerned, it was a "gift" right. And strangely, to them also, they would like to consider it a "gift" also, only there's one little thing in the way, see; they are now deathly afraid of the light, and all that is needed for them to leave is for you to appear

Interesting thought. I have sometimes heard of those who received Christ through an easy-believism message returning and saying later on, "But I don't feel saved." The reassuring response was usually something like, "But you can't go by your feelings. You have to go by faith." But that's just it; their faith is weak in the extreme because they never reinforced it with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, endurance, patience, brotherly love, etc. (2 Peter 1:5-8). It's like they want others to salve over their conscience or ignore it, but inside the Spirit of God is trying to tell them otherwise. The Lord put our conscience there to tell us when something is wrong and needs to be corrected, and negating its voice as irrelevant does a great disservice to believers IMO.