After The Rapture

[Heyzeus]

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

1Sa 10:19
And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.

So who gave Satan authority to present himself among the other sons?.. The other sons.
When we let "lawlessness" rule our lives, we give Satan the authority to accuse us.
wow.
Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Let's add thoughts and conscience into the soul/mind dilemma shall we.. ugh.

In my Father's house there are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you.
You ever read the book, Pilgrim's Progress??

You cited one of my favorite Pauline passages .. Galatians 5 as well. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.

Who says Satan is Lawless .. certainly not the story of Job ? .. Clearly he had the permission of "The Most High" - his Father to be present at this function in Heaven .. The advocate has a one on one conversation... with his Father. "How are things Going God asks .. what have you been up to" .. down around on earth abound :) you know the story. Father boats to the son .. have ya seen me servant Job .. Son ribs his father . well yeah dad .. you gave him everything .. try taking that away and see what happens.

The bet is made .. and the terms are set. Satan goes out to do his duty as a tester ... and he has some serious powers .. "Godlike- Powers".

But - Satan does not step beyond God's rules .. Satan abides by them .. and the Son's of God are always shown as "subservient" to the Father. Subordinate to the Father .. as the Early Church believed about Jesus .. for a long long time .. until an evil Emperor changed things - and even after that it took another 400 years for this belief to be stomped out by the sword .. and another 600 years of horror to make it stick .. thus completing the 1000 years of horror.

Deut 32:43 .. the real version .. the one the early Church was using and not that joke of a modern Translation.

O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all divinities Bow to Him, all sons of the divine --- (Sons of God)
O nations, rejoice with His People And let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him.

For He’ll avenge the blood His sons, Be vengeful And wreak vengeance And recompense justice On His foes, Requite those who reject him and the Lord will and Cleanse His people’s land.

The Son's of God are bowing to The Most High .. but also rejoicing and celebrating with him in Heaven.
On a lower level are the nations .. and "His people" meaning the Israelites .. the Angels are on a lower level yet.

I am sure the Advocate was invited to that party as well..

Satan must not have been at this party though Psalm 82 .. Where "El" God of Abraham is seated as the head of the Divine Council .. YHWH is prosecuting the other "Sons of God" - condemns them to death .. and takes over their people .. takes over all the nations of the earth for himself.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

We know this because Satan is still around in Mark. once again in his role as "Tester" .. a role given to him by the Most High.

Then one day someone has a bad dream about some evil demons and attributes this to the Tester .. Satan gets such a bad wrap .. He is actually the doorman when you get to heaven .. good one too .. like a consierge . gives good advice .. what some of the good vacation spots are .. :)

 

[Heyzeus]

I accept a God who gave you the ability to reason. Even if your reasoning (in your head) portrays a God that contradicts Himself. You are not a robot with a programmed mind.

It is not just in my head .. it is in your head as well .. you just can not deal with this reality .. because one of your pillars would be dented .. and if there is the slightest crack in the smallest pillar of literalism .. the whole structure falls. This is not a strong foundation.

A) Children are not to be killed for the sins of their parents .. nor Parents for the sins of their children
B) Children and Fetuses should be slaughtered for the idolatry of others .. Parents - Relatives - Neighbors down the street - other towns folks.

Which is God's word.

 

[Heyzeus]

[QUOTE="Timtofly, post: 866273, member: 8638"

Sorry how does taking something into a stomach effect the uterus? Are you saying they were creating a pharmaceutical drug concoction? Does the passage state they had to wait almost 9 months, 8 months, 7 months, etc to force an abortion?[/QUOTE]

Its how the morning after pill works - Read the passage .. they give the woman some potion .. say some ritual words .. and this produces an abortion if the woman has been unfaithful.

but - then you have the abortions done a different way - in the case where fetuses have some neighbors or townsfolk down the street who are worshiping other Gods .. Abortion by the sword ..

 

[Heyzeus]

Adam was cast out of the Garden. He could no longer access the Garden. Satan does not live in heaven, he will just loose access to heaven. Satan was given a new home back when Adam was placed in the Garden. Satan has never been confined to sheol, but that is his home, when not at "work".

I didn't say Satan lived in Heaven .. try to keep things straight and not build strawmen (put words in mouth of the other that the other did not say)

What does Satan have to do with Adam ? Scripture tells us that Satan has been to heaven ... or else where did you think the meeting place where all the Sons of God were presenting themselves to the Most High in Job was .. on top of a high Mountain ?

Why are you making things up rather than addressing what Scripture says.

 

[Heyzeus]

First off, the past is the past. You can argue over pagan gods all day, if you want.

God "creates" us in the womb, using the natural biological process, and of course not all conceptions become humans. The point is it does not happen prior to conception. If you want to leave God out of the process, there is no creation. It would just be evolutionary, instead of created. You are making too much out of a simple fact.

You were the one that brought up child sacrifice .. and then turn around and accuse me of arguing over it .. I can recommend a Projection therapy site if you like ?

How do you know when it happens .. Did God sit down with you for tea and tell you when the soul arrives during the process of creation ?

What simple fact am I making too much out of ?

This is a post full of unrelatable gibberish and unsupported claims .. topped off with strawman fallacy.

 

[Ziggy]

You cited one of my favorite Pauline passages .. Galatians 5 as well. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.

Who says Satan is Lawless .. certainly not the story of Job ? .. Clearly he had the permission of "The Most High" - his Father to be present at this function in Heaven .. The advocate has a one on one conversation... with his Father. "How are things Going God asks .. what have you been up to" .. down around on earth abound :) you know the story. Father boats to the son .. have ya seen me servant Job .. Son ribs his father . well yeah dad .. you gave him everything .. try taking that away and see what happens.

The bet is made .. and the terms are set. Satan goes out to do his duty as a tester ... and he has some serious powers .. "Godlike- Powers".

But - Satan does not step beyond God's rules .. Satan abides by them .. and the Son's of God are always shown as "subservient" to the Father. Subordinate to the Father .. as the Early Church believed about Jesus .. for a long long time .. until an evil Emperor changed things - and even after that it took another 400 years for this belief to be stomped out by the sword .. and another 600 years of horror to make it stick .. thus completing the 1000 years of horror.

Deut 32:43 .. the real version .. the one the early Church was using and not that joke of a modern Translation.

O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all divinities Bow to Him, all sons of the divine --- (Sons of God)
O nations, rejoice with His People And let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him.

For He’ll avenge the blood His sons, Be vengeful And wreak vengeance And recompense justice On His foes, Requite those who reject him and the Lord will and Cleanse His people’s land.

The Son's of God are bowing to The Most High .. but also rejoicing and celebrating with him in Heaven.
On a lower level are the nations .. and "His people" meaning the Israelites .. the Angels are on a lower level yet.

I am sure the Advocate was invited to that party as well..

Satan must not have been at this party though Psalm 82 .. Where "El" God of Abraham is seated as the head of the Divine Council .. YHWH is prosecuting the other "Sons of God" - condemns them to death .. and takes over their people .. takes over all the nations of the earth for himself.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

We know this because Satan is still around in Mark. once again in his role as "Tester" .. a role given to him by the Most High.

Then one day someone has a bad dream about some evil demons and attributes this to the Tester .. Satan gets such a bad wrap .. He is actually the doorman when you get to heaven .. good one too .. like a consierge . gives good advice .. what some of the good vacation spots are .. :)

Who says Satan is lawless??
Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
This guy:
Rev 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I see the same scenario in the Garden. There's no way God would have let the serpent "test" Eve if he didn't allow it.
But it was, and what happened to the serpent when Eve said.. He did it!!
Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

He's still doing it. But we give him the power to do it by listening to him.
So the punishment is 2-fold.
He gets his butt kicked and we get penalized for disobeying.

The thing with Job, Job's mouth didn't sin. He never spoke a bad word.
But what was he thinking???
I did this, I did that, I was perfect in all my ways... and you 3 guys are stupid.
Humblenessss....
Many shall say unto me Lord, Lord... But did Job Know Him?

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Satan deserves a bad wrap, He's a bad dude.
:)
HUGS

 

[Heyzeus]

Who says Satan is lawless??
Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
This guy:
Rev 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I see the same scenario in the Garden. There's no way God would have let the serpent "test" Eve if he didn't allow it.
But it was, and what happened to the serpent when Eve said.. He did it!!
Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

He's still doing it. But we give him the power to do it by listening to him.
So the punishment is 2-fold.
He gets his butt kicked and we get penalized for disobeying.

The thing with Job, Job's mouth didn't sin. He never spoke a bad word.
But what was he thinking???
I did this, I did that, I was perfect in all my ways... and you 3 guys are stupid.
Humblenessss....
Many shall say unto me Lord, Lord... But did Job Know Him?

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Satan deserves a bad wrap, He's a bad dude.
:)
HUGS

Not allowed to quote from the NT on this one .. not just yet ... because the author of Mark did not have any of that .. we will get there . . but you have cart before horse at present ..

Except - Genesis .. yes .. What can we say about that one.. The Snake is punished ... No doubt about it. What can I tell you..

We have conflicting stories .. keep in mind that he is also punished in Psalm 82 .. which I hope you enjoyed - "IF" we assume he was part of the "Sons of God" present in the congregation of "EL" .. the Most High, Creator "The Father" - God of Abraham - God who dwells in the Mountain.

No assuming the Tester is not there during the trial of Adam.. pretty much a dead ringer. So while this is a problem for my theory - one I readily admit .. have you yet admitted to yourself that these other depictions that I have presented are a problem for your Perspective ... the Nasty Satan.

I could die on the pillar of trying to claim .. OHh OHHH .. that was not Satan .. but Lucifer .. and they are different .. but you will not find me doing this .. it is a possibility .. but I find it not worthy of much.. and coupled with the council of El .. these are conflicting depictions.

Either way though .. we have a whole lot of Sons o God running around in the Good ol Days of the OT - the past beliefs were much more lively than the present .. which is reflected in the older scripture .. unfortunately wiped clean in some cases from the "Modern Translation" .

Check out Proverbs 6:26 .. read the chapter a bit for context -- Look at the GNT - Good News Translation - Lutheran Bible..

Then look at the KJV and a few others .. and tell me the meaning of this passage based on the GNT .. and the meaning from the KJV .. and then tell me why one of the two transcribers was engaging in pious fraud - for extra bonus points.

 

[Ziggy]

Not allowed to quote from the NT on this one .. not just yet ... because the author of Mark did not have any of that .. we will get there . . but you have cart before horse at present ..

Except - Genesis .. yes .. What can we say about that one.. The Snake is punished ... No doubt about it. What can I tell you..

We have conflicting stories .. keep in mind that he is also punished in Psalm 82 .. which I hope you enjoyed - "IF" we assume he was part of the "Sons of God" present in the congregation of "EL" .. the Most High, Creator "The Father" - God of Abraham - God who dwells in the Mountain.

No assuming the Tester is not there during the trial of Adam.. pretty much a dead ringer. So while this is a problem for my theory - one I readily admit .. have you yet admitted to yourself that these other depictions that I have presented are a problem for your Perspective ... the Nasty Satan.

I could die on the pillar of trying to claim .. OHh OHHH .. that was not Satan .. but Lucifer .. and they are different .. but you will not find me doing this .. it is a possibility .. but I find it not worthy of much.. and coupled with the council of El .. these are conflicting depictions.

Either way though .. we have a whole lot of Sons o God running around in the Good ol Days of the OT - the past beliefs were much more lively than the present .. which is reflected in the older scripture .. unfortunately wiped clean in some cases from the "Modern Translation" .

Check out Proverbs 6:26 .. read the chapter a bit for context -- Look at the GNT - Good News Translation - Lutheran Bible..

Then look at the KJV and a few others .. and tell me the meaning of this passage based on the GNT .. and the meaning from the KJV .. and then tell me why one of the two transcribers was engaging in pious fraud - for extra bonus points.

You want me to work?
:

 

[Heyzeus]

You want me to work?
:

If you have not read Proverbs 5-6 .. it is well worth it .. some fantastic advise from days gone by. Not sure if it is there or earlier but another great tidbit .. "better to sleep on top on the roof than with a nagging wife" :)

 

[Ziggy]

Not allowed to quote from the NT on this one .. not just yet ... because the author of Mark did not have any of that .. we will get there . . but you have cart before horse at present ..

Except - Genesis .. yes .. What can we say about that one.. The Snake is punished ... No doubt about it. What can I tell you..

We have conflicting stories .. keep in mind that he is also punished in Psalm 82 .. which I hope you enjoyed - "IF" we assume he was part of the "Sons of God" present in the congregation of "EL" .. the Most High, Creator "The Father" - God of Abraham - God who dwells in the Mountain.

No assuming the Tester is not there during the trial of Adam.. pretty much a dead ringer. So while this is a problem for my theory - one I readily admit .. have you yet admitted to yourself that these other depictions that I have presented are a problem for your Perspective ... the Nasty Satan.

I could die on the pillar of trying to claim .. OHh OHHH .. that was not Satan .. but Lucifer .. and they are different .. but you will not find me doing this .. it is a possibility .. but I find it not worthy of much.. and coupled with the council of El .. these are conflicting depictions.

Either way though .. we have a whole lot of Sons o God running around in the Good ol Days of the OT - the past beliefs were much more lively than the present .. which is reflected in the older scripture .. unfortunately wiped clean in some cases from the "Modern Translation" .

Check out Proverbs 6:26 .. read the chapter a bit for context -- Look at the GNT - Good News Translation - Lutheran Bible..

Then look at the KJV and a few others .. and tell me the meaning of this passage based on the GNT .. and the meaning from the KJV .. and then tell me why one of the two transcribers was engaging in pious fraud - for extra bonus points.

Not allowed??? wait a minute..
There are no rules for thee but not for me here

"but you have cart before horse at present"
Recently it's been called.. future proves past.. but that's a Q thing and you may not be famialiar with it,
so I'll let it pass

"Except - Genesis .. yes .. What can we say about that one.. The Snake is punished ... No doubt about it. What can I tell you.. "
What can we say, hmm, those nagging truths just get in the way sometimes.. don't ya just hate that?

"We have conflicting stories .. keep in mind that he is also punished in Psalm 82 .. which I hope you enjoyed - "IF" we assume he was part of the "Sons of God" present in the congregation of "EL" .. the Most High, Creator "The Father" - God of Abraham - God who dwells in the Mountain."

I don't see a conflict here, Where you see a conflict here?

"No assuming the Tester is not there during the trial of Adam.. pretty much a dead ringer. So while this is a problem for my theory - one I readily admit .. have you yet admitted to yourself that these other depictions that I have presented are a problem for your Perspective ... the Nasty Satan. "
You know what they say about assuming don't ya?
And no, that's why I'm challenging you perspective. I think mines fine.

"I could die on the pillar of trying to claim .. OHh OHHH .. that was not Satan .. but Lucifer .. and they are different .. but you will not find me doing this .. it is a possibility .. but I find it not worthy of much.. and coupled with the council of El .. these are conflicting depictions."
I don't want you to go to that much trouble, Lifes too short

"Either way though .. we have a whole lot of Sons o God running around in the Good ol Days of the OT - the past beliefs were much more lively than the present .. which is reflected in the older scripture .. unfortunately wiped clean in some cases from the "Modern Translation" ."

Yeah, but we don't want to forget about these guys:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

"Check out Proverbs 6:26 .. read the chapter a bit for context -- Look at the GNT - Good News Translation - Lutheran Bible..Then look at the KJV and a few others .. and tell me the meaning of this passage based on the GNT .. and the meaning from the KJV .. and then tell me why one of the two transcribers was engaging in pious fraud - for extra bonus points. "
That's the work I was talking about. :

Hugs :)

 

[Ziggy]

If you have not read Proverbs 5-6 .. it is well worth it .. some fantastic advise from days gone by. Not sure if it is there or earlier but another great tidbit .. "better to sleep on top on the roof than with a nagging wife" :)

Could get pretty cold up there alone though.
Ecc 4:11
Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?
:)

 

[n2thelight]

Adam was cast out of the Garden. He could no longer access the Garden. Satan does not live in heaven, he will just loose access to heaven. Satan was given a new home back when Adam was placed in the Garden. Satan has never been confined to sheol, but that is his home, when not at "work".

Rev 7 has yet to take place

 

[Heyzeus]

Not allowed??? wait a minute..
There are no rules for thee but not for me here

"but you have cart before horse at present"
Recently it's been called.. future proves past.. but that's a Q thing and you may not be famialiar with it,
so I'll let it pass

I think the problem might not be related to your lack of reading comprehension but my poor explanation. (Gladiator .. paraphrased)

OK .. so what I am trying to understand here is the Satan of Mark .. as this is a critical interaction. This author does not have any of the scripture you are quoting .. so that does not help us with is mindset. Mark is the first Gospel round 60AD .. Matt uses Mark as a source document - and adds some stuff - perhaps from oral tradition or earlier manuscripts - writing 80-100AD - Luke uses the same.

John comes along 100-120 AD - and further adds to the story. My question is in relation to the original story.. in Mark .. and what was the role of Satan .. good guy .. bad guy ... or the Tester once again carrying out God's will .. not stepping outside the boundaries.

"Except - Genesis .. yes .. What can we say about that one.. The Snake is punished ... No doubt about it. What can I tell you.. "
What can we say, hmm, those nagging truths just get in the way sometimes.. don't ya just hate that?

It does get in the way. In Genesis you have Satan being punished .. for stepping out side the boundaries .. in the other stories mentioned Satan is a dutiful Son.

"No assuming the Tester is not there during the trial of Adam.. pretty much a dead ringer. So while this is a problem for my theory - one I readily admit .. have you yet admitted to yourself that these other depictions that I have presented are a problem for your Perspective ... the Nasty Satan. "
You know what they say about assuming don't ya?
And no, that's why I'm challenging you perspective. I think mines fine.

The assumption went against my premise ... not for it .. and I was not making that assumption.. This time it is not my failing as a teacher.
I readily admit the conflicting perspectives . . It is you who is failing to admit the existence of the other perspective .. and what is with that ..

"I think mine's fine" ? NO .. it is not fine .. if your perspective was fine .. it would not be in conflict with the other stories - and wandering around pretending otherwise .. is not fine either :)

 

[Ziggy]

I think the problem might not be related to your lack of reading comprehension but my poor explanation. (Gladiator .. paraphrased)

OK .. so what I am trying to understand here is the Satan of Mark .. as this is a critical interaction. This author does not have any of the scripture you are quoting .. so that does not help us with is mindset. Mark is the first Gospel round 60AD .. Matt uses Mark as a source document - and adds some stuff - perhaps from oral tradition or earlier manuscripts - writing 80-100AD - Luke uses the same.

John comes along 100-120 AD - and further adds to the story. My question is in relation to the original story.. in Mark .. and what was the role of Satan .. good guy .. bad guy ... or the Tester once again carrying out God's will .. not stepping outside the boundaries.



It does get in the way. In Genesis you have Satan being punished .. for stepping out side the boundaries .. in the other stories mentioned Satan is a dutiful Son.





The assumption went against my premise ... not for it .. and I was not making that assumption.. This time it is not my failing as a teacher.
I readily admit the conflicting perspectives . . It is you who is failing to admit the existence of the other perspective .. and what is with that ..

"I think mine's fine" ? NO .. it is not fine .. if your perspective was fine .. it would not be in conflict with the other stories - and wandering around pretending otherwise .. is not fine either :)

I was just being flipant. Was a bit stressful yesterday and I took it out on a few people here. I have to check my emotions at the door.
These are serious questions and deserve serious answers. So for that I appologize, my bad.
So, It seems the dliemma is with the Satan who tempts Jesus in the wilderness?
The ultimate battle between good and evil.
Jesus is the Lamb of God. The Lamb of God is the Glory of God.
Satan has come face to face with God himself to challenge him.
God is in a man's body which is subject to all temptations Satan has ever thrown at man.
He thinks he has the upper hand.
The Spirit of God brings this man who is God in the flesh to be tempted by Satan.
Have you seen my servant Job?
God sent himself to sit in Job's situation.
Kind of Job saying, what would Jesus do? And Jesus replies, Let's find out.
The first attack was hunger, the second, security, and the third greed.
I'm sure if it was broken down we would find a lot more but just for consolidations sake.
It's not about the temptations themselves, but how much is God willing to endure for his creation.
The first challenge was Spiritual.
The second challenge was the "so called" friends sitting around the campfire challenging his righteousness.
Israel, Gentiles, even devils. They scoffed, they laughed, and they hated him so much they would kill him the
most painful form of punishment, crucifixion.
Satan used his family, his friends, the Leaders, and strangers, those he healed and those he loved, against him.
The Emotioinal/Spiritual/ and Physical was being challanged.
Jesus is Job. Jesus is God being Job.
Which still leaves the question,
Who is Satan?
He is the Serpent in the Garden who wants to destroy Adam, God's son. Through greed. I will be like the Most High.
He is the Adversary , Saul, that wants to destroy David. The Apple of God's eye, Through temptations of the flesh. His weekness
Bathsheba. Seduction, fornication, which led to murder.
Satan is everywhere trying to not only destroy us but to challenge ..hmm, tha Patience of Job.
God's Love for us surpassed Satan's Hate for us.
Moses in the wilderness when the people were hungry afraid they would perish, cried.
God supplied manna. Sustainence. And led them through. Man shall not live by bread alone..
God was, is, and always be our shield.
Satan was, is, and always be the one shooting the arrows.
Jesus showed us how to win the battle. Not because he died, But because He Lived.
He never waivered. He never gave in. And he never gave up. And he Never will.
Satan lost the battle. He is the keeper of death. He thought he would be able to bind the strong man of the house,
and take all that he had.
Who is Satan?
He is the first servant/Angel/son sent to help man. He is the Lightbearer. He is Lucifer. He is Legion and has many names, and many forms.
All meant to decieve and steal, kill, and destroy God's creation.
The Battle has already been won.
We just need to believe.
And we are not alone, for he is with us, every step of the way.
And it is Faith in this that we too can walk where Angels fear to tread.
Deu 11:25
There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.
Mal 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Luk 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Hugs

 

[Heyzeus]

I was just being flipant. Was a bit stressful yesterday and I took it out on a few people here. I have to check my emotions at the door.
These are serious questions and deserve serious answers. So for that I appologize, my bad.
So, It seems the dliemma is with the Satan who tempts Jesus in the wilderness?
The ultimate battle between good and evil.
Jesus is the Lamb of God. The Lamb of God is the Glory of God.
Satan has come face to face with God himself to challenge him.
God is in a man's body which is subject to all temptations Satan has ever thrown at man.
He thinks he has the upper hand.
The Spirit of God brings this man who is God in the flesh to be tempted by Satan.
Have you seen my servant Job?
God sent himself to sit in Job's situation.

Had a similar conversation - and ask the question "did Satan know it was God Standing there" "She was just 17 - you know what I mean.. and I saw here standing there" "Beatles"

The one standing there is a man of 30 years old . who has just been made divine. Remember the reader has nothing else to go on - as this is the first Gospel .. and in fact the first page of the Gospel.

Put yourself in the position of an early Jewish Christian - who has nothing to go on but messianic tradition and stories from others - word of mouth about this new Messiah that everyone is talking about. The messianic tradition that is hot and heavy in the first century .. Jesus being only one of many .. and not the first.

This person then reads the first page of the Gospel of Mark- Who is Jesus in this story ? - after the first page. A man of 30 who God has patronized .. a common theme - be it Jesus or various OT figures from Abraham to Moses on Down - then of course there are the numerous other similar well known stories from other religious tradition.

Then - as per how many other similar stories and traditions go .. upon being given the spark of the Divine - the subject is tested prior to completion of the ritual.

Satan knows who Jesus is - and clearly does not think this is his Father standing before him - Satan is not going to ask the "Most High" to bow before him - or at least nobody reading the story at the time is going get "Jesus is The Father" from the encounter with Satan.

As we read further in the story - Jesus continuously refers to "The Father" as someone other than himself. By now in the story it is clear that Jesus is more than Just a man .. and more than just a divine spark .. but he is the "Son of Man" - but this in no way makes him "The Most High" and people simply didn't believe this.

Note the early Christians - Not the Disciples - and not Jesus. You are trying to make man made trinity doctrine that would not even exist for another 150 years - into scripture - something that no one believed in at the time .. and would have declared any such utterances as Heresy .. well past 200AD .. and this includes all the early Church Fathers up to this point.

Near 200 years after the death of our Lord - and No One believes that Jesus was "The Father" - and infact believes it heresy were anyone to say such a thing.

1700 years after this Doctrine became "Official" The Church Still can't agree on the finer details .. To Filioque or not to Filioque ..

In any case .. I don't buy the "Jesus is the Father" claims - and still maintain the subordinate perspective of the early Church - in my quest for the real Jesus :)

Kind of Job saying, what would Jesus do? And Jesus replies, Let's find out.
The first attack was hunger, the second, security, and the third greed.
I'm sure if it was broken down we would find a lot more but just for consolidations sake.
It's not about the temptations themselves, but how much is God willing to endure for his creation.
The first challenge was Spiritual.

In Job "The Advocate" - is depicted as a Son of God - one who is on speaking terms with the Father ..and who does not go outside the will of the Father .. this son of God is also subordinate to the Father in Job.

Which still leaves the question,
Who is Satan?
He is the Serpent in the Garden who wants to destroy Adam, God's son. Through greed. I will be like the Most High.
He is the Adversary , Saul, that wants to destroy David. The Apple of God's eye, Through temptations of the flesh. His weekness
Bathsheba. Seduction, fornication, which led to murder.
Satan is everywhere trying to not only destroy us but to challenge ..hmm, tha Patience of Job.

Poor Satan - always getting "demonized" for things not of his doing. Bathsheba did not seduce David - lets that much clear.

The downfall of man is an interesting story - one that comes from the distant past - and so in this respect - one that is not so easily reconciled with passages coming from the time of Moses.

but lets look at the story and ask a few basic questions. Here we have a couple of humans - who have the mind of a child - not knowing good from evil. They trust everyone as a child does.

These two babes are put into the ring against ? "The Greatest Deceiver with God-like Powers" -- not sure if you are a Gambler - but who do you put your money on ? It is no contest.

Suppose you leave your 3 yr old with an uncle - and have told that child "don't touch the stove". When you come home - you find that indeed the child has touched the stove - but has done so because Uncle told him to .. and then you punish the child with a severe punishment.

So then .. did God not know the outcome of this battle prior to putting the two contestants in the ring ? Of course he did .. only an idiot would not .. never mind the "Most High"

So God puts these humans into a battle where they have no chance of winning .. and God knows they will not win .. and then punishes them for losing.

 

[Ziggy]

Had a similar conversation - and ask the question "did Satan know it was God Standing there" "She was just 17 - you know what I mean.. and I saw here standing there" "Beatles"

The one standing there is a man of 30 years old . who has just been made divine. Remember the reader has nothing else to go on - as this is the first Gospel .. and in fact the first page of the Gospel.

Put yourself in the position of an early Jewish Christian - who has nothing to go on but messianic tradition and stories from others - word of mouth about this new Messiah that everyone is talking about. The messianic tradition that is hot and heavy in the first century .. Jesus being only one of many .. and not the first.

This person then reads the first page of the Gospel of Mark- Who is Jesus in this story ? - after the first page. A man of 30 who God has patronized .. a common theme - be it Jesus or various OT figures from Abraham to Moses on Down - then of course there are the numerous other similar well known stories from other religious tradition.

Then - as per how many other similar stories and traditions go .. upon being given the spark of the Divine - the subject is tested prior to completion of the ritual.

Satan knows who Jesus is - and clearly does not think this is his Father standing before him - Satan is not going to ask the "Most High" to bow before him - or at least nobody reading the story at the time is going get "Jesus is The Father" from the encounter with Satan.

As we read further in the story - Jesus continuously refers to "The Father" as someone other than himself. By now in the story it is clear that Jesus is more than Just a man .. and more than just a divine spark .. but he is the "Son of Man" - but this in no way makes him "The Most High" and people simply didn't believe this.

Note the early Christians - Not the Disciples - and not Jesus. You are trying to make man made trinity doctrine that would not even exist for another 150 years - into scripture - something that no one believed in at the time .. and would have declared any such utterances as Heresy .. well past 200AD .. and this includes all the early Church Fathers up to this point.

Near 200 years after the death of our Lord - and No One believes that Jesus was "The Father" - and infact believes it heresy were anyone to say such a thing.

1700 years after this Doctrine became "Official" The Church Still can't agree on the finer details .. To Filioque or not to Filioque ..

In any case .. I don't buy the "Jesus is the Father" claims - and still maintain the subordinate perspective of the early Church - in my quest for the real Jesus :)



In Job "The Advocate" - is depicted as a Son of God - one who is on speaking terms with the Father ..and who does not go outside the will of the Father .. this son of God is also subordinate to the Father in Job.





Poor Satan - always getting "demonized" for things not of his doing. Bathsheba did not seduce David - lets that much clear.

The downfall of man is an interesting story - one that comes from the distant past - and so in this respect - one that is not so easily reconciled with passages coming from the time of Moses.

but lets look at the story and ask a few basic questions. Here we have a couple of humans - who have the mind of a child - not knowing good from evil. They trust everyone as a child does.

These two babes are put into the ring against ? "The Greatest Deceiver with God-like Powers" -- not sure if you are a Gambler - but who do you put your money on ? It is no contest.

Suppose you leave your 3 yr old with an uncle - and have told that child "don't touch the stove". When you come home - you find that indeed the child has touched the stove - but has done so because Uncle told him to .. and then you punish the child with a severe punishment.

So then .. did God not know the outcome of this battle prior to putting the two contestants in the ring ? Of course he did .. only an idiot would not .. never mind the "Most High"

So God puts these humans into a battle where they have no chance of winning .. and God knows they will not win .. and then punishes them for losing.

AWESOME!!
Where shall we begin??
So looking at this from the reader's advantage yes I would agree.. who knew?
But it was written by those who had studied, discipled, walked with Apostles, and got the first hand account.
Some think Mark is the same Mark that travelled with Paul.
Paul, like John the Baptist is an enigma to me.
I've seen this guy as both night and day. Someday I will "know" the answer.
But then I've seen Jesus as the serpent in the garden too..
He speaks like him.. here eat this you.ll live forever then follow me.
So I've walked many paths. Been through many battles in my own mind.
I'm still standing, yeah yeah yeah...(Elton John).. I love the Beatles too.

I don't know how to do that Quote thing so I'll just put yours in quotations.
"Then - as per how many other similar stories and traditions go .. upon being given the spark of the Divine - the subject is tested prior to completion of the ritual."

Any many shall come in my name saying I am Christ.
So what makes this guy so special? Prophecy. Demonstrations of Miracles. He knew the scriptures without a Phd.
But he had just been baptized by John and the dove which represented the Holy Spirit that descended on him,
filled him, hmm, like a cup running over. It's a recharging of the battery. The battery/Spirit is there, this just gives him a Booster, to get through the next 40 days.

"In Job "The Advocate" - is depicted as a Son of God - one who is on speaking terms with the Father ..and who does not go outside the will of the Father .. this son of God is also subordinate to the Father in Job."

Because he walks among them doesn't mean he is a son. And if we jump over to the Lucifer theory you will see that Satan was one of the Archangels/Cherubim that resided over the mercy seat. Probably the guy on the Left :/
He didn't recieve the title "adversary" until he challenged God and there was war in heaven.
Can you see the battle in your mind between the Archangel Michael on the Right hand and the Archangel Lucifer on the Left, and they are in a battle over the Mercy seat?
And He got thrown out, and recieved a new name... Satan.

"Satan knows who Jesus is - and clearly does not think this is his Father standing before him - Satan is not going to ask the "Most High" to bow before him - or at least nobody reading the story at the time is going get "Jesus is The Father" from the encounter with Satan."

I'm sure Satan knows exactly who he's facing. And it's not Michael. God came down from that mercy seat and engaged himself in the war.
Battles on.. Gloves off... Ding...Ding...

So if I don't believe like the hmm Pharisees tell me how to believe, then I'll be burned at the stake?
I would probably be in good company.

"Poor Satan - always getting "demonized" for things not of his doing. Bathsheba did not seduce David - lets that much clear."
THAT"S not how this WORKS!!

The seducing is in David's mind, it's in his heart. Satan is the virus of seduction.
She just happened to be in the right place at the wrong time.
So if I put the blame on Bathsheba .. my wrong
And I have no pity for Satan.. none.
I used to think if I prayed for him he would change, and then I read the book of Enoch and it was tried already and God said No.

"but lets look at the story and ask a few basic questions. Here we have a couple of humans - who have the mind of a child - not knowing good from evil. They trust everyone as a child does. "

For such is the Kingdom of God.

"These two babes are put into the ring against ? "The Greatest Deceiver with God-like Powers" -- not sure if you are a Gambler - but who do you put your money on ? It is no contest."

Now your assuming these are not full grown male and female?
They have been in the Garden for awhile.
God has breathed into Adam his own breath of Life.
The Golden rule was already vested in him.
This is now bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh.
Do unto others.. no man hath ever yet hated his own flesh...
so many verses..
They knew the Law.

Well, here we are.
We have Jesus and the Church on this side, and the Adversary on the other.
Ding...Ding...

First round we lost.
2nd round we win.

"Suppose you leave your 3 yr old with an uncle - and have told that child "don't touch the stove". When you come home - you find that indeed the child has touched the stove - but has done so because Uncle told him to .. and then you punish the child with a severe punishment. "

If they never knocked on "uncle's " door, they never woulda got burned.
But they did. And there are always consequences for actions. There is a law about that I forget what it is.. KARMA?

"So God puts these humans into a battle where they have no chance of winning .. and God knows they will not win .. and then punishes them for losing."

Winning! Winning! Winning!
Trust the Plan,
WWG1WGA!
wow..

Adam and Eve were never meant to take up permanent residence in the Garden.
They had a whole Kingdom they were going to be in charge of.
Instead of taking the easy way, they chose the hard way.
And instead of being the King and Queen, they became the servants.

But there is a day coming,
When the King and Queen after hard labour, pain and humbleness, will once again be worthy to sit upon the Throne.
And that Kingdom is called New Jerusalem aka: Paradise.

And then we get to do it all over again

:)
Thank You!

 

[Heyzeus]

AWESOME!!
Where shall we begin??
So looking at this from the reader's advantage yes I would agree.. who knew?
But it was written by those who had studied, discipled, walked with Apostles, and got the first hand account.
Some think Mark is the same Mark that travelled with Paul.
Paul, like John the Baptist is an enigma to me.
I've seen this guy as both night and day. Someday I will "know" the answer.
But then I've seen Jesus as the serpent in the garden too..
He speaks like him.. here eat this you.ll live forever then follow me.
So I've walked many paths. Been through many battles in my own mind.
I'm still standing, yeah yeah yeah...(Elton John).. I love the Beatles too.

I don't know how to do that Quote thing so I'll just put yours in quotations.
"Then - as per how many other similar stories and traditions go .. upon being given the spark of the Divine - the subject is tested prior to completion of the ritual."

Any many shall come in my name saying I am Christ.
So what makes this guy so special? Prophecy. Demonstrations of Miracles. He knew the scriptures without a Phd.
But he had just been baptized by John and the dove which represented the Holy Spirit that descended on him,
filled him, hmm, like a cup running over. It's a recharging of the battery. The battery/Spirit is there, this just gives him a Booster, to get through the next 40 days.

"In Job "The Advocate" - is depicted as a Son of God - one who is on speaking terms with the Father ..and who does not go outside the will of the Father .. this son of God is also subordinate to the Father in Job."

Because he walks among them doesn't mean he is a son. And if we jump over to the Lucifer theory you will see that Satan was one of the Archangels/Cherubim that resided over the mercy seat. Probably the guy on the Left :/
He didn't recieve the title "adversary" until he challenged God and there was war in heaven.
Can you see the battle in your mind between the Archangel Michael on the Right hand and the Archangel Lucifer on the Left, and they are in a battle over the Mercy seat?
And He got thrown out, and recieved a new name... Satan.

"Satan knows who Jesus is - and clearly does not think this is his Father standing before him - Satan is not going to ask the "Most High" to bow before him - or at least nobody reading the story at the time is going get "Jesus is The Father" from the encounter with Satan."

I'm sure Satan knows exactly who he's facing. And it's not Michael. God came down from that mercy seat and engaged himself in the war.
Battles on.. Gloves off... Ding...Ding...

So if I don't believe like the hmm Pharisees tell me how to believe, then I'll be burned at the stake?
I would probably be in good company.

"Poor Satan - always getting "demonized" for things not of his doing. Bathsheba did not seduce David - lets that much clear."
THAT"S not how this WORKS!!

The seducing is in David's mind, it's in his heart. Satan is the virus of seduction.
She just happened to be in the right place at the wrong time.
So if I put the blame on Bathsheba .. my wrong
And I have no pity for Satan.. none.
I used to think if I prayed for him he would change, and then I read the book of Enoch and it was tried already and God said No.

"but lets look at the story and ask a few basic questions. Here we have a couple of humans - who have the mind of a child - not knowing good from evil. They trust everyone as a child does. "

For such is the Kingdom of God.

"These two babes are put into the ring against ? "The Greatest Deceiver with God-like Powers" -- not sure if you are a Gambler - but who do you put your money on ? It is no contest."

Now your assuming these are not full grown male and female?
They have been in the Garden for awhile.
God has breathed into Adam his own breath of Life.
The Golden rule was already vested in him.
This is now bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh.
Do unto others.. no man hath ever yet hated his own flesh...
so many verses..
They knew the Law.

Well, here we are.
W !

OK ... Tradition holds that Mark was a disciple of - interpreter for Peter. There does not seem to be any interaction with Paul and there is no reason to suspect that there would be .. After Jesus death there is not much contact between Paul and the Disciples - Paul is not part of the Church of Jerusalem . Jewish Christians - the first Church of Jesus -Led by the Brother of Jesus ... James the Just.

Paul - converting a number of years after the death of our lord .. is an outsider .. one who was persecuting christians as his career :)

By the time Paul gathers a following .. enough to garner attention .. the Church has grown - the Jewish Christians .. as detailed in Acts ..

There are a few interactions - which do not go that well - but a relationship is formed .. an acceptance of the Church of Jerusalem for Paul's attempts/mission to convert non Jews to Christianity .. they disagree on doctrine .. and each is on different paths.

Pauls Story we know well - The disciples we know something about as well. The disciples go out to the lost sheep of Israel.

When Mark becomes interpreter of Peter we do not know .. but we can reasonably suspect that it is later .. as Mark is ~60 AD... and this is the time when most all have been martyred and/or are soon to be martyred.

In between there Paul is all over the map - when Mark starts apprenticing ??? simply don't know. The evidence tells us that Paul knows very little if anything about the life and times of Jesus .. no sayings .. Paul simply does not write about the life of Jesus.

If Paul were to have spent any significant time with Mark .. he sure did not let us know .. and presumably this would be something to talk about .. first hand knowledge of the life of Jesus.. Paul knows nothing of this - that we know of.

So on this basis I see no reason to adopt this idea.

"In Job "The Advocate" - is depicted as a Son of God - one who is on speaking terms with the Father ..and who does not go outside the will of the Father .. this son of God is also subordinate to the Father in Job."

Because he walks among them doesn't mean he is a son. And if we jump over to the Lucifer theory you will see that Satan was one of the Archangels/Cherubim that resided over the mercy seat. Probably the guy on the Left :/
He didn't recieve the title "adversary" until he challenged God and there was war in heaven.
Can you see the battle in your mind between the Archangel Michael on the Right hand and the Archangel Lucifer on the Left, and they are in a battle over the Mercy seat?
And He got thrown out, and recieved a new name... Satan.

Highlight .. hit the Plus (+) and hit quote ..

It says in Job .. The "Sons of God" were hanging out with the Big Cheese "presenting themselves" - and Satan was among them.

So Satan was not one of the "Sons of God" - OK - but first .. who then are these other Son's of God .. and what is a "God" .. in this context ?

How much power do these Sons of God have ... Is it more than Lucy ? .. who is able to hurl lighting bolts from the sky .. give anyone the whole world ... You label Lucy how you like .. but this is a God .. relative to you and me .. with God like powers.

So about those other sons .. how much power do they have ? and where does Jesus fit in on the pecking order. He will take power over the world from brother Sataniel .. a changing of the guard .. OK .. I can dig it..

but .. who are these other Sons of God then .. and what is their power relative to brother Sataniel.

We also have to consider the relationship between God and Satan. God talks directly to the Advocate .. the Tester - and in cordial terms .. as would a Father to a Son .. "What have you been up to" asks El to his Son .. Here and there . "Have you checked out servant Job"

and so on .. give me a break - how are you not seeing the level of this relationship or the nature ?

You have this massive Demon .. one who is so powerful - that it is able to fight God .. and God's Son Jesus is going to spend Considerable amounts of energy fighting this incredibly powerful force..

But when Lucy is up hanging with Daddy .. "Whats up Lucy" .. what ya doing ... "Oh .. hanging out on earth .. this and that" .. cool .. hey .. how about that servant of mine.

If you have no disconnect at this point happening .. not even a little bit of cognitive dissonance - if the smell test is not going off - and alarm bells not ringing .. then you are not paying attention :)

Two Pictures .. not Matching .. rather a square peg in a round hole.

OH .. we know what to do in this case .. Square Peg .. Round Hole .. Just keep pounding .. that's the ticket.

 

[Ziggy]

OK ... Tradition holds that Mark was a disciple of - interpreter for Peter. There does not seem to be any interaction with Paul and there is no reason to suspect that there would be .. After Jesus death there is not much contact between Paul and the Disciples - Paul is not part of the Church of Jerusalem . Jewish Christians - the first Church of Jesus -Led by the Brother of Jesus ... James the Just.

Paul - converting a number of years after the death of our lord .. is an outsider .. one who was persecuting christians as his career :)

By the time Paul gathers a following .. enough to garner attention .. the Church has grown - the Jewish Christians .. as detailed in Acts ..

There are a few interactions - which do not go that well - but a relationship is formed .. an acceptance of the Church of Jerusalem for Paul's attempts/mission to convert non Jews to Christianity .. they disagree on doctrine .. and each is on different paths.

Pauls Story we know well - The disciples we know something about as well. The disciples go out to the lost sheep of Israel.

When Mark becomes interpreter of Peter we do not know .. but we can reasonably suspect that it is later .. as Mark is ~60 AD... and this is the time when most all have been martyred and/or are soon to be martyred.

In between there Paul is all over the map - when Mark starts apprenticing ??? simply don't know. The evidence tells us that Paul knows very little if anything about the life and times of Jesus .. no sayings .. Paul simply does not write about the life of Jesus.

If Paul were to have spent any significant time with Mark .. he sure did not let us know .. and presumably this would be something to talk about .. first hand knowledge of the life of Jesus.. Paul knows nothing of this - that we know of.

So on this basis I see no reason to adopt this idea.



Highlight .. hit the Plus (+) and hit quote ..

It says in Job .. The "Sons of God" were hanging out with the Big Cheese "presenting themselves" - and Satan was among them.

So Satan was not one of the "Sons of God" - OK - but first .. who then are these other Son's of God .. and what is a "God" .. in this context ?

How much power do these Sons of God have ... Is it more than Lucy ? .. who is able to hurl lighting bolts from the sky .. give anyone the whole world ... You label Lucy how you like .. but this is a God .. relative to you and me .. with God like powers.

So about those other sons .. how much power do they have ? and where does Jesus fit in on the pecking order. He will take power over the world from brother Sataniel .. a changing of the guard .. OK .. I can dig it..

but .. who are these other Sons of God then .. and what is their power relative to brother Sataniel.

We also have to consider the relationship between God and Satan. God talks directly to the Advocate .. the Tester - and in cordial terms .. as would a Father to a Son .. "What have you been up to" asks El to his Son .. Here and there . "Have you checked out servant Job"

and so on .. give me a break - how are you not seeing the level of this relationship or the nature ?

You have this massive Demon .. one who is so powerful - that it is able to fight God .. and God's Son Jesus is going to spend Considerable amounts of energy fighting this incredibly powerful force..

But when Lucy is up hanging with Daddy .. "Whats up Lucy" .. what ya doing ... "Oh .. hanging out on earth .. this and that" .. cool .. hey .. how about that servant of mine.

If you have no disconnect at this point happening .. not even a little bit of cognitive dissonance - if the smell test is not going off - and alarm bells not ringing .. then you are not paying attention :)

Two Pictures .. not Matching .. rather a square peg in a round hole.

OH .. we know what to do in this case .. Square Peg .. Round Hole .. Just keep pounding .. that's the ticket.

Peter. Paul. I didn't check it out, my bad, I knew Mark was hanging on someones sleeve.
So if it is Peter's sleeve well then he would have first hand knowledge. Seeing Peter was there from (why does this keep happening?)
beginning to end, and beginning again.. life, death, ressurection...
I see Paul more like walking the walk rather than talking the talk, although he wrote a lot of letters.
It's those books that John wrote about that there would be so many the world could not contain them,
but that Paul tried to sum up if you will through many letters.
It's all in the details.
Genesis= Overview, Gospels = foot notes, Letters = body context
I never wrote a book I don't know if I have that right, but I think you know what I mean.
Paul walked his life as if in the shoes of Jesus. Expanding on those parables by using scripture to explain what
this whole Gospel thing is about.
That's how I see it anyways.

Now for the fun part.. Lucy in the sky with diamonds..yes.. Someone saved my life tonight, and right after that comes
goodbye yellow brick road.

ok...I get lost in music..lalala lalala

Who are the other sons of God?? hmm.. almost come full circle you know
Ok check this out..
1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And the power..
"How much power do these Sons of God have ... Is it more than Lucy ? "
Luk 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
round and round she goes, and where she stops nobody knows...
I smell popcorn and lots of butter.. YUM

Hey a lot of that I think I already broke some of it out.
The Archangel/Cherubim part..................
What else ya got?
:)
HUGS
I am so enjoying this discussion!!
Thank you

 

[Heyzeus]

Peter. Paul. I didn't check it out, my bad, I knew Mark was hanging on someones sleeve.
So if it is Peter's sleeve well then he would have first hand knowledge. Seeing Peter was there from (why does this keep happening?)
beginning to end, and beginning again.. life, death, ressurection...
I see Paul more like walking the walk rather than talking the talk, although he wrote a lot of letters.
It's those books that John wrote about that there would be so many the world could not contain them,
but that Paul tried to sum up if you will through many letters.
It's all in the details.
Genesis= Overview, Gospels = foot notes, Letters = body context
I never wrote a book I don't know if I have that right, but I think you know what I mean.
Paul walked his life as if in the shoes of Jesus. Expanding on those parables by using scripture to explain what
this whole Gospel thing is about.
That's how I see it anyways.

Now for the fun part.. Lucy in the sky with diamonds..yes.. Someone saved my life tonight, and right after that comes
goodbye yellow brick road.

ok...I get lost in music..lalala lalala

Who are the other sons of God?? hmm.. almost come full circle you know
Ok check this out..
1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And the power..
"How much power do these Sons of God have ... Is it more than Lucy ? "
Luk 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
round and round she goes, and where she stops nobody knows...
I smell popcorn and lots of butter.. YUM

Hey a lot of that I think I already broke some of it out.
The Archangel/Cherubim part..................
What else ya got?
:)
HUGS
I am so enjoying this discussion!!
Thank you

Quoting NT stuff to support the meaning of "Sons of God" in the OT is way out of whack .. Noooo... doesn't work on any rational level.
Even the context -- one is an interactive event happening with the most high .. Divinities - John is talking about humans .. and things of the spirit .. in no way is John calling humans "Son of God" like Jesus.. you are way off the cabbage farm here.

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all divinities Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His People And let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him.

For He’ll avenge the blood His sons, Be vengeful And wreak vengeance And recompense justice On His foes, Requite those who reject him and the Lord will and Cleanse His people’s land.

Up in heaven we have the divinities .. sons of the Devine .. clearly denoted in Hebrew text as 'Gods" - you can tell by the way the word was inflected .. one of the advantages of some of the older scripts....

In any case .. Divinities are up in heaven .. with God .. as in Job.. on a lower tier are humans .. this is not referring to the humans on the lower tier .. and we know this from the way Sons of God is written ...

The nations and his people on on a lower tier .. and the angels on yet a lower tier than that.

In Psalm 82 we have El as the head of a divine council .. YHWH is prosecuting a case against the "Sons of God" --- no .. not humans.

 

[Ziggy]

Quoting NT stuff to support the meaning of "Sons of God" in the OT is way out of whack .. Noooo... doesn't work on any rational level.
Even the context -- one is an interactive event happening with the most high .. Divinities - John is talking about humans .. and things of the spirit .. in no way is John calling humans "Son of God" like Jesus.. you are way off the cabbage farm here.

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all divinities Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His People And let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him.

For He’ll avenge the blood His sons, Be vengeful And wreak vengeance And recompense justice On His foes, Requite those who reject him and the Lord will and Cleanse His people’s land.

Up in heaven we have the divinities .. sons of the Devine .. clearly denoted in Hebrew text as 'Gods" - you can tell by the way the word was inflected .. one of the advantages of some of the older scripts....

In any case .. Divinities are up in heaven .. with God .. as in Job.. on a lower tier are humans .. this is not referring to the humans on the lower tier .. and we know this from the way Sons of God is written ...

The nations and his people on on a lower tier .. and the angels on yet a lower tier than that.

In Psalm 82 we have El as the head of a divine council .. YHWH is prosecuting a case against the "Sons of God" --- no .. not humans.

Psalm 82

He's talking about the people who was in charge of the Kingdom or temple in Jerusalem.
Jhn 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Who did the word of the Lord come to?
Who is standing in their face?
Who is he talking about?

Them.
The High Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees.. these "gods" if you will.
He called them nasty.
You Hypocrites,
Mat 22:18
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

We live in a complex existence. We are both Spirit and Flesh.
The bible is meant to be bread/food for the Spirit.
God is Spiritual, He talks to us spiritually.
But we have carnal minds and can only recognize this reality until someone comes along and unplugs your ears and puts salve in your eyes.
Spitball and mud even.. imagine that ewww..
Heaven and earth exist simultaneously.
As above so below.
There is no limitation of space and time in the spiritual existence. All things happen all the time.
So when you read the book of Genesis, you are reading the Gospels and Revelation all at the same time.
They all exist all the time.

But there is this firmament thing I was working on the other day.. seems so long ago now, I think it was yesterday lol
The mind is the barrier that stops us from seeing beyong the glass ceiling.
It's the Lazarus gulf.
So the sons of God in Job are and will be the sons of God in 1 John. Everything Is. at the same time.
Think of it as living in multiple dimensions at the same time.
I hear the preacher saying something about all is vanity...
Ecclesiastes.. took me 3x to write that

I used to have a cabbage patch doll.
And I like coleslaw.
But I never seen a cabbage farm...
interesting..
:)
HUGS