Against all odds

[Enoch111]

Soooooo who's WAY do you choose or love the most? Yours? Mine? The Baptist? Catholics? Mormons? Islam's??

Obviously our first choice must be the Catholic Church -- the "one true Church founded by Christ through Peter, etc. etc. etc.".

Which is in deep trouble right now because of its false beliefs. While the pope plays hide and seek.

 

[Marymog]

That everyone has a portion of truth is an indefinite since I don't know everyone nor even every church group. I believe that they all have a portion, but until I have it all myself how complete is my knowledge likely to be about others.

I did not say that we cannot completely know the truth. I was saying that for the most part from what I am able to understand we do not. What I believe is that everyone who believes God's message to man at all has a mixture of belief and knowledge. The problem is that we don't always know which parts we only believe [possibly in error] and which parts we know [from God and without error]. As to the books Bible, to me they are dead alone anyway even they were written under God's inspiration. The Life comes to what we have consumed [read or heard] when within us they [words ] they are quickened by the Holy Spirit. When they are then it would be better described as Word rather than word. As to the correct number of books, I can only repeat what I have read or heard from people. God has not let me know that there is a correct or incorrect number. Since without the quickening they are dead anyway, what difference would it make?

Thank you.

As to the correct number of NT books you said you can only repeat what you have read or heard from other people. Do you trust what those other people have said? Do you think they got the number right? FYI.....I think they did.

Since God has not let YOU know the correct number of books are you concerned it could be wrong?

To me it sounds like your not even POSITIVE that we as Christians are quoting from the complete word of God since your not sure that we have the correct number of books. If you are not confident that we don't have the correct number of books how can we as Christians be confident we even got the CORRECT books??

What does the quickening have to do with God giving man the correct number of books? I'm confused!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Do I know their hearts? Do you? When you seek to make criticism or judgment against them consider what Jesus said here:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

In short he is saying, "much is given... much [is] required...". The judgment of every man is based on what he has done with what God has given him. Because only God knows all of these things for each of us... along perhaps with anyone with whom He may have shared some of that knowledge...???

Do we have more knowledge of truth than any of those you mention? Perhaps but on a case by case basis of the individuals belonging to each group, how much do we know about what is in each heart?

If we really have more than they do then will not God require more from us than He would from them? If we have a better holy book or a better church or a better education or more time, will He not require more from us than them? And so forth...

Hmmmm......Not really sure how to take your response since it doesn't seem to match up with what you previously said.

You said if one loves Jesus that means they love The Truth.

They (The Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Westboro Baptist Church etc) say they love Jesus. Based on YOUR STATEMENT that means they love The Truth.

Now you are saying that you or I don't know their hearts so we can't really judge them or if they TRULY love Jesus/Truth? That is AFTER you made the judgment that they do love the truth BECAUSE they love Jesus.....I'm confused.

Scripture also says that we are to watch out for false prophets and teachers who are misleading the Church. That suggest we would know who are false and mis-leading the faithful. Do you believe Mohammed was a false prophet? Do you believe the leader of the Westboro Church is a false teacher? Or are you afraid to judge them?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I did not say that we cannot completely know the truth. I was saying that for the most part from what I am able to understand we do not. What I believe is that everyone who believes God's message to man at all has a mixture of belief and knowledge. The problem is that we don't always know which parts we only believe [possibly in error] and which parts we know [from God and without error].

I agree with you. You never flat out said that we cannot completely know the truth.

What you have said is that The Truth is out there and that some people have some of The Truth but not all of The Truth. In a nut shell: Marymog may have The Truth about ABC and be wrong about XYZ which means she has only part of The Truth. But Amadeus has The Truth about XYZ but be wrong about ABC. The Catholic Church has the truth about DEF and @brakelite has The Truth about HIJ but is wrong about KLM and ABC. Based on your theory that means The FULL Truth is out there and we know it, however, not one person (our group) owns The Truth.

The only dilemma with your belief is that if everyone has a portion of The Truth and no one can agree on what portion is true that means we really can't completely KNOW The Truth. Sooooo in effect you do believe that we cannot completely know The Truth.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

When I am not led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God then I am quite likely to be in error. When I am led by the Holy Spirit perfectly I am never wrong. The difficulty for me and anyone, I believe, comes when we quench the Holy Spirit in us. If we had the Holy Spirit in us and never quenched that Spirit and always followed the lead of the Spirit we would never be in error. Are there people who are never in error continuously? To my knowledge I haven't met such an overcomer but then if I had met one but God did not reveal it to me, how would I know?

I agree: We can never know when we are being led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God and when we might be in error?

That seems to suggest that we can NEVER have a proper interpretation of Scripture and the Mormons, the Muslims and the pastor at the Wesboro Baptist Church may have gotten it right and you and I got it wrong.....

Their interpretation is just as valid as everyone else's???

Mary

 

[Marymog]

When I am not led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God then I am quite likely to be in error. When I am led by the Holy Spirit perfectly I am never wrong. The difficulty for me and anyone, I believe, comes when we quench the Holy Spirit in us. If we had the Holy Spirit in us and never quenched that Spirit and always followed the lead of the Spirit we would never be in error. Are there people who are never in error continuously? To my knowledge I haven't met such an overcomer but then if I had met one but God did not reveal it to me, how would I know?

I try to go the lowest room everyday. [Yes, I have failed to do this, but we serve a merciful God who does not leave us with no recourse because of a single failure.] In the lowest room I ask that God keep me during the times when I have to be minding other things, especially secular things.

The one that I trust and that tells me I need to go to the lowest room is God. If we are His sheep are we not hearing His voice?

Let me get this straight: You believe at times you are led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God and when that happens you are never wrong. HOWEVER, at times you are not led by God in the things you do/say which means you will quite likely be in error since you were not led by Him in those things.

FURTHERMORE, you never really KNOW when those two things are happening AND it is possible that you might be delusional during some of this. But your not worried about that because at that time you would go to the lowest room to get your head straight. AND you know it's time to go to the lowest room because you trust God to tell you it's time to go to the lowest room. Not because a feeling comes over your body or someone tells you that you are saying/doing incorrect things or you are acting delusional. God is guiding you to the lowest room.

Sooooo on those day's you TRY to go to the lowest room and you don't go do you think that mean God doesn't think you need go to that day or was that a decision you made? Or is it possible that Satan has influenced you?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

If are walking regularly with God and paying attention to His voice, will we not hear His warnings to us?

You didn't answer my questions: How do you KNOW when God has elevated you and you have not deceived yourself in your delusional mindset and elevated yourself? If you are in a delusional state when you go to the lowest room is it possible in your delusion you elevated yourself and thought that God did it?

HOWEVER based on your response, in the form of a question, you believe that you walk regularly with God and are paying attention to His voice which means you will always hear His warnings. That means you will never deceive yourself or have a delusional mindset EVEN THOUGH previously you said that EVERYONE is deluded and deceives themselves.

I guess you are not part of everyone??

Mary

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog in all your questions, challenges, and responses, it appears to me you are leading people to come to what you deem to be the only logical conclusion... Accept the doctrinal teachings of the RCC and you will not be deceived.
In doing this you are ignoring what others are trying you, and what you are pretending to uphold. That JESUS, the very person of the Son of God, is the Truth. Everyone here is saying "come to Him", while in your typical round about convolutions, you are saying"come to Rome". Sorry, but Rome does not not can it ever be the representative or earthly replacement for knowing the Father and the Son.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou didst send."

If accept and put into practice your interpretation of Scripture and accept YOUR DOCTRINE/DOGMA/TEACHINGS I am assured salvation???

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Well, you asked questions and, I can only give my opinion because there seems to BE no answer to your questions. I left nothing out as I was not quoting the specific scripture. Maybe somebody else more, "learned" can answer these seemingly impossible questions.
BTW-our salvation depends on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us, and we receive it with grace through faith. I don't care what anybody interprets their pet doctrines as, so long as the Gospel is preached!

So you believe your interpretation of Scripture and the doctrines you hold true guarantee you salvation?

Mary

 

[Nancy]

So you believe your interpretation of Scripture and the doctrines you hold true guarantee you salvation?

Mary

No not at all as there is only one way to salvation and, that is Christ. As far as "my interpretation" of scripture and doctrines I hold go, they are no more or less "right" than yours. My heart is wide open to ANYTHING God reveals to me. Listening to men is a joke. Unless...you CHECK the scriptures yourself to show yourself approved.

And let me add, always with prayer for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

As to the correct number of NT books you said you can only repeat what you have read or heard from other people. Do you trust what those other people have said? Do you think they got the number right? FYI.....I think they did.

I am glad for you that you are certain on that point if that helps you in your walk with God. I am careful about trusting people. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't. God always does.

Since God has not let YOU know the correct number of books are you concerned it could be wrong?

No for why should I be concerned? Are God's promises to us based on that number?

To me it sounds like your not even POSITIVE that we as Christians are quoting from the complete word of God since your not sure that we have the correct number of books. If you are not confident that we don't have the correct number of books how can we as Christians be confident we even got the CORRECT books??

If we have the correct leader and are following Him, why should we be concerned about such a question? How many NT books did Stephen read before he was stoned to death as per the books of Acts?

What does the quickening have to do with God giving man the correct number of books? I'm confused!

If we are dead or we are reading consuming dead things which are never quickened in us, how can any part of God's truth?

 

[amadeus]

Hmmmm......Not really sure how to take your response since it doesn't seem to match up with what you previously said.

You said if one loves Jesus that means they love The Truth.

Is not Jesus the truth?

They (The Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Westboro Baptist Church etc) say they love Jesus. Based on YOUR STATEMENT that means they love The Truth.

Does a person's spoken statement that he loves Jesus mean that he really does? Where is the proof of that love?

Now you are saying that you or I don't know their hearts so we can't really judge them or if they TRULY love Jesus/Truth? That is AFTER you made the judgment that they do love the truth BECAUSE they love Jesus.....I'm confused.

What is confusing?
Unless God has shown us the heart of a person how can we judge that person fairly? How can you know that he is lying when he says that he loves Jesus?

Scripture also says that we are to watch out for false prophets and teachers who are misleading the Church. That suggest we would know who are false and mis-leading the faithful. Do you believe Mohammed was a false prophet? Do you believe the leader of the Westboro Church is a false teacher? Or are you afraid to judge them?

Are you not mixing things up?

Are we to watch out for false prophets and teachers? If so, why? Certainly not to condemn them:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " John 3:17-18


If those two you mentioned, Mohammed and the Westboro church leader, did not believe "in the name of the only begotten Son of God" are they not already condemned? Why should I presume to stand in judgment of them? Shunning the appearance of evil is one thing while standing in judgment over an already condemned person is quite another, is it not?

 

[amadeus]

I agree with you. You never flat out said that we cannot completely know the truth.

What you have said is that The Truth is out there and that some people have some of The Truth but not all of The Truth. In a nut shell: Marymog may have The Truth about ABC and be wrong about XYZ which means she has only part of The Truth. But Amadeus has The Truth about XYZ but be wrong about ABC. The Catholic Church has the truth about DEF and @brakelite has The Truth about HIJ but is wrong about KLM and ABC. Based on your theory that means The FULL Truth is out there and we know it, however, not one person (our group) owns The Truth.

The only dilemma with your belief is that if everyone has a portion of The Truth and no one can agree on what portion is true that means we really can't completely KNOW The Truth. Sooooo in effect you do believe that we cannot completely know The Truth.

While what we know and/or believe in this moment may be incomplete or even in error in part does not mean that in the next moment in following the lead of the Holy Ghost we will not know and/or believe with no errors at all. What is impossible for God?


"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

People believe things in error because they follow something or someone other than God. When a person follows God continuously in obedience what will ultimately be incomplete or in error?

 

[amadeus]

I agree: We can never know when we are being led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God and when we might be in error?

That seems to suggest that we can NEVER have a proper interpretation of Scripture and the Mormons, the Muslims and the pastor at the Wesboro Baptist Church may have gotten it right and you and I got it wrong.....

Their interpretation is just as valid as everyone else's???

Mary

Why do you twist my words instead of simply reading what I write? If we are always led by the Holy Spirit and always obey God will we not eventually eliminate all error? Do you doubt that God can do this... if we will allow Him to work in us?

Forget the nonsense with regard those you believe to be error. They also, if they still have time still have hope, When a person's time is finished, then is his hope not also finished?

 

[amadeus]

Let me get this straight: You believe at times you are led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God and when that happens you are never wrong. HOWEVER, at times you are not led by God in the things you do/say which means you will quite likely be in error since you were not led by Him in those things.

FURTHERMORE, you never really KNOW when those two things are happening AND it is possible that you might be delusional during some of this. But your not worried about that because at that time you would go to the lowest room to get your head straight. AND you know it's time to go to the lowest room because you trust God to tell you it's time to go to the lowest room. Not because a feeling comes over your body or someone tells you that you are saying/doing incorrect things or you are acting delusional. God is guiding you to the lowest room.

Sooooo on those day's you TRY to go to the lowest room and you don't go do you think that mean God doesn't think you need go to that day or was that a decision you made? Or is it possible that Satan has influenced you?

Mary

Mary, Mary quite contrary... is there no end to your doubts and your questions and your snares?

Have you no faith in our God? Will He let us fail in our frailty without giving us an opportunity to make it right? Of course if we tempt Him repeatedly when we already know better we are likely to more quickly reach a limit, but the answer to your questions or doubts is found in these words penned by the Apostle Paul:


"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

 

[amadeus]

You didn't answer my questions: How do you KNOW when God has elevated you and you have not deceived yourself in your delusional mindset and elevated yourself? If you are in a delusional state when you go to the lowest room is it possible in your delusion you elevated yourself and thought that God did it?

Sorry but I don't have one of those photographic memories. I don't remember all of your questions but I have taken a lot a time to help you understand where I am and what I believe. I have tried to answer your questions. If you think I missed something important you need to be more specific if you expect much more from me. In the flesh I am tired and don't like playing games here. I really am sincere in where I walk and in how I serve God even if you think I might be deluded. I don't believe that I am, not in the things that count. You'll have to take my word for that ... or not.

HOWEVER based on your response, in the form of a question, you believe that you walk regularly with God and are paying attention to His voice which means you will always hear His warnings. That means you will never deceive yourself or have a delusional mindset EVEN THOUGH previously you said that EVERYONE is deluded and deceives themselves.

I guess you are not part of everyone??

Communication is often a problem for all of us. Don't make it more difficult by pretending your don't understand something when you do. People may say "everyone" knows this even though they don't mean this in the most literal way. My words are imprecise as yours are imprecise. With regard to Jesus it was spies sent by his enemies who said, "Never man spake like this man." [from John 7:46]


"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:13

Who understood all of his spoken parables?

 

[Marymog]

No not at all as there is only one way to salvation and, that is Christ. As far as "my interpretation" of scripture and doctrines I hold go, they are no more or less "right" than yours. My heart is wide open to ANYTHING God reveals to me. Listening to men is a joke. Unless...you CHECK the scriptures yourself to show yourself approved.

And let me add, always with prayer for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Lol...I agree.....listening to "men" is a joke

JK....for any of you men who happen to be reading this.

Your interpretation of Scripture is that their is only ONE way to salvation and that is Christ. I agree with you HOWEVER it seems to me that since there are 27 books with 260 chapters and approximately 160,000 words just in the New Testament the way to salvation is a little more complicated than just believing in Christ and "seeking his face" as you previously stated. With all those words it seems the 'instruction book for salvation' would consist of more rules than that.

You have me a bit confused. You say that "listening to men is a joke" but then say WE can check scripture to show ourselves approved. When you do that are you not then listening to a man (woman in this case) for approval...... which would be YOURSELF? You only trust YOUR interpretation of Scripture?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No not at all as there is only one way to salvation and, that is Christ. As far as "my interpretation" of scripture and doctrines I hold go, they are no more or less "right" than yours. My heart is wide open to ANYTHING God reveals to me. Listening to men is a joke. Unless...you CHECK the scriptures yourself to show yourself approved.

And let me add, always with prayer for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Lol...I agree.....listening to "men" is a joke

JK....for any of you men who happen to be reading this.

Your interpretation of Scripture is that their is only ONE way to salvation and that is Christ. Since there are 27 books with 260 chapters and approximately 160,000 words just in the New Testament wouldn't the way to salvation be more complicated than that?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I am glad for you that you are certain on that point if that helps you in your walk with God. I am careful about trusting people. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't. God always does.

No for why should I be concerned? Are God's promises to us based on that number?

If we have the correct leader and are following Him, why should we be concerned about such a question? How many NT books did Stephen read before he was stoned to death as per the books of Acts?

If we are dead or we are reading consuming dead things which are never quickened in us, how can any part of God's truth?

I truly don't know what to say. Your cryptic answers (that are really not answers) make ZERO sense to me.

You lack faith that God gave us the correct number of books OR the correct books to read from so that we can obtain salvation.....I don't know what to say to that except I hope your faith increases and I pray that someday you get to the point that you have FULL faith in God.

Stephen has Absolutely NOTHING to do with you having confidence that God gave man the correct number of books for the NT.....Your analogy makes ZERO sense.

Since @Nancy liked them maybe she can decipher them for me!

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Sometimes

i've read a couple pretty good arguments that suggest the way Paul used the term "Scripture" is diff than we use it today mostly bc...they did not have fiction back then, writing was tedious and only for a certain caste, and ppl got killed for lying back then, unless they were Roman, until that culture began intruding more iow. Paul likely considered any wisdom literature "Scripture," while at the same time would not consider any to be the final truth, or the only worthy pov. We also have many indications that Paul imported what we now deem Scripture from many outside sources, refs to Stoicism, Greek gods are even invoked when the spirit is correct, etc

of course someone will object @ "while at the same time would not consider any to be the final truth, or the only worthy pov," but then when you ask them why Greek and Roman gods are in their Bible they will usually go away

the Exodus caused by YHWH is quite possibly the vowel notation that the Israelites invented; YHWH are the four Hebrew vowels! i guess the Hs are slightly different. Anyway the theory goes that this caused a revolution in knowledge transmission at least as profound as the internet; language could now be written and understood by J Doe, and the hieroglyph code that was formerly only decodable by Egyptian priests and jealously guarded by them was rendered obsolete.

ergo the old wisdom tradition that kept everyone in thrall...a slave to Egypt in a sense was broken, and we can find a record of the decline of Egypt that coincides quite nicely with the theory i guess