Against all odds

[ScottA]

What the? I don't get it.

The slaughter or sacrifice Paul referred to, was the very same sacrifice that Christ made on the cross, which Paul and many others have all joined in to save the lost. We have come to the knowledge of the truth that God has made a way for us to be saved from the death sentence that came upon mankind in the garden for rebellion against God, and we have decide to help, sacrificing our own lives by making His goal of salvation our own goal as well. There is no slaughter of innocent people, only salvation for those who will receive it.

 

[amadeus]

If you look at people the right way amadeus you will see a beauty in them, that most people are ready to do the best by other's. When I was a Christian I'd only see the worst in them. That's what religious belief does, makes everyone out as wanting to hurt you.

When people do the right things for the right reasons, God is in it even if they do not know it. God will call in to Him people who have seen a glimmer but want more. He will enable them to move a giant step ahead of even those 'right things for the right reasons' to seeing and loving Him in spite of all the ugliness that is all around them and as well as within ourselves.

Consider how Ghandi looked at us:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

You also see the problem as Ghandi saw it, but unlike him you have seemingly even rejected the Christ. You tell a tale of a lady who taught you and lived her teachings. You now have rejected so much because you have seen so much hypocrisy in Christian and their churches and been personally hurt.

Don't do that. Look back at that lady who taught and lived a righteous life. Look to Jesus who also not only taught it but lived it. See then the beauty that you mention. It really exists, but many people, even many people called Christians, are blind to it. It really is there and here.

Consider again that in spite of what Jesus taught and how he lived a clean and perfect life, what was his reward as a man of flesh? They conspired against him and tortured and killed him... yet even then, he loved them all. Are you better than Jesus that you should live a life in the flesh with no pain, no suffering? Who among Christians deserves better that what Jesus received? Don't answer these questions. Just consider them and ask God to let you see just a little bit of His vision of people.

 

[djstav]

You Christards! Does everything little thing have to be weighed on the scale's of Jesus. A thing can't be a thing without you painting over it with some religious shade. You are all RETARDED CHRIST RETARDED!

 

[djstav]

Screw this place, I'm wasting my life with TARDs.

 

[ScottA]

Screw this place, I'm wasting my life with TARDs.

Slán leat, go fóill - beannacht!

 

[Marymog]

If we are his sheep there is no problem:

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:4-5

So the answer lies in first being his sheep and then listening to Him and obeying Him only.

Hi Amadeus,

What you have stated kind of makes sense but leads me to more questions. What I can't figure out is how does one know when they have become one of His sheep?

You might be legitimately concerned for me that I am twisting scripture and following a wolf in sheep clothing since I belong to a particular denomination. I could have the same legitimate concern for you.

Is the voice you are following His voice and the voice I am following a strangers voice? Or vice a versa?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

If Satan can appear as an Angel of light how can any of you determine between Gods light & Satan's? Are you an expert on light based power's. You know I never could quite understand that verse, that Satan can trick you with a false goodness. Seems that the odds are stacked high against us, doesn't it?

It does seem that way.

I believe God has given all humans the natural ability to differentiate between good and bad.

 

[Enoch111]

I believe God has given all humans the natural ability to differentiate between good and bad.

Looks like we are in agreement on this point (Romans 2:6-16). "Conscience" for "natural ability" would be more precise.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

What you have stated kind of makes sense but leads me to more questions. What I can't figure out is how does one know when they have become one of His sheep?

Well as per the verse cited, His sheep do know his voice.

When we know we are hearing from Him then it would follow that we are his sheep. The problem as you would point out is that some will decide that they are hearing Him when they really are not. They may be deluded or some may simply be saying they recognizing His voice in order keep up appearances before some group of people... when they really are not hearing Him at all.

The decision as to whether or not another person is really hearing from God in the end of the matter is not ours. God might share his knowledge with you or me or another person, but we should not expect to receive such knowledge just because we are curious. If God really does share something like that there is no doubt as I see it that He would have a good reason even if I cannot understand it. It's His business and only becomes mine if I am the one saying I that I hear Him or if with regard to another person God makes it my business.

You might be legitimately concerned for me that I am twisting scripture and following a wolf in sheep clothing since I belong to a particular denomination. I could have the same legitimate concern for you.

Yes, we might be so concerned about one another, but is it our business to know the answer simply because we are concerned? Maybe, but it's still a hypothetical question. If we are really hearing God's voice and He wants us to know, will He not tell us? If He does, how will He speak to us? How many different ways did God speak to people in scripture?

Is the voice you are following His voice and the voice I am following a strangers voice? Or vice a versa?

Mary

This kind of a question is why a regular [daily?] communication with God is so important. People who never loved the truth or whose love for truth has faded may be in delusion. Of course when a person is deluded, he does not know it. This is why a daily renewed or continuing connection is so important. If we presume that the good we had yesterday remains today, where is our assurance that we are not now deluded or even that we were deluded yesterday?

A little over a year ago an old friend of mine who was partnered with me as altar boys located me in Oklahoma and called me on the telephone. He had remained in California whereas I left California for Wyoming and Oklahoma many years ago. I had not seen the man nor spoken to him in over 50 years. Yet, after talking for few minutes on the phone he told me I sounded just like I had when we were together so many years ago. He knew my voice. Do we similarly know God's voice? If not, why not?

 

[bbyrd009]

Screw this place, I'm wasting my life with TARDs.

that seat feels awful comfy to you, huh? lol
fwiw it was reeking obvious the day you started posting.
the pot of gold is a hoot though, thanks

 

[Helen]

@Marymog

Sure we KNOW...that we are His.
I would guess that if we are unsure, then we are not!!

We know HIS voice ...and He knows ours!!

1 John 5:13-15
13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him. "

 

[Nancy]

@Marymog

Sure we KNOW...that we are His.
I would guess that if we are unsure, then we are not!!

We know HIS voice ...and He knows ours!!

1 John 5:13-15
13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him. "

Do doubts EVER creep in? I have gotten to recognize when Satan tries to steal and kill my hope and joy in The Lord. There are dry periods-peaks and valleys. But, somehow, God brings me back to His words and promises! So, there are times I do not "feel" saved but, "know" I am ♥

 

[Helen]

Do doubts EVER creep in? .... There are dry periods-peaks and valleys. But, somehow, God brings me back to His words and promises! So, there are times I do not "feel" saved but, "know" I am ♥

That bold line is right on...

This is normal and must be so...or there is no need of faith.
We KNOW because He said so. Not by how we 'feel'.
Satan came to Jesus and said - "IF you be the Son of God then..."
And the Accuser still says it to us..."IF you be saved...."

But, ' we KNOW Whom we have believed and am persuaded the He is able to keep that which we have committed unto Him , until That Day.'

 

[Nancy]

That bold line is right on...

This is normal and must be so...or there is no need of faith.
We KNOW because He said so. Not by how we 'feel'.
Satan came to Jesus and said - "IF you be the Son of God then..."
And the Accuser still says it to us..."IF you be saved...."

But, ' we KNOW Whom we have believed and am persuaded the He is able to keep that which we have committed unto Him , until That Day.'

Thanks for the uplift my friend! And, indeed He DID say ♥

 

[Nancy]

IMO, the hardest part of all is separating the physical from the Spiritual. Different realms-Time vs Eternity? If we, or should I say "when" we try to understand spiritual things with our own understanding, confusion abounds. It is a mystery. The only go to that I will depend on is the Holy Spirit to bring to light the things I should know. And, as we are still fleshly and physical, we will still see as through a glass darkly. So, until and unless all things are made clear, we will continue to disagree BUT...there is no reason for us to get all mad and miffed if one does not agree with what we see as His truth. He looks to the heart and we cannot hide our thoughts from Him. Each day has new mercies awaiting us, all we need do is simply ask and accept with grateful hearts. The Holy Spirit will order our thoughts, actions and steps, words...each day anew...we just need to ask. And, walk in the way we believe pleases Him.

 

[Marymog]

Well as per the verse cited, His sheep do know his voice.

When we know we are hearing from Him then it would follow that we are his sheep. The problem as you would point out is that some will decide that they are hearing Him when they really are not. They may be deluded or some may simply be saying they recognizing His voice in order keep up appearances before some group of people... when they really are not hearing Him at all.

The decision as to whether or not another person is really hearing from God in the end of the matter is not ours. God might share his knowledge with you or me or another person, but we should not expect to receive such knowledge just because we are curious. If God really does share something like that there is no doubt as I see it that He would have a good reason even if I cannot understand it. It's His business and only becomes mine if I am the one saying I that I hear Him or if with regard to another person God makes it my business.


Yes, we might be so concerned about one another, but is it our business to know the answer simply because we are concerned? Maybe, but it's still a hypothetical question. If we are really hearing God's voice and He wants us to know, will He not tell us? If He does, how will He speak to us? How many different ways did God speak to people in scripture?


This kind of a question is why a regular [daily?] communication with God is so important. People who never loved the truth or whose love for truth has faded may be in delusion. Of course when a person is deluded, he does not know it. This is why a daily renewed or continuing connection is so important. If we presume that the good we had yesterday remains today, where is our assurance that we are not now deluded or even that we were deluded yesterday?

A little over a year ago an old friend of mine who was partnered with me as altar boys located me in Oklahoma and called me on the telephone. He had remained in California whereas I left California for Wyoming and Oklahoma many years ago. I had not seen the man nor spoken to him in over 50 years. Yet, after talking for few minutes on the phone he told me I sounded just like I had when we were together so many years ago. He knew my voice. Do we similarly know God's voice? If not, why not?

Thank you.

If a person is not truly hearing from God (they are "deluded") and they twist scripture and are a sheep (or shepherd) in wolves clothing is there no scriptural guidance on what to do with those persons?

Yes, it is our business to know the answer. Shouldn't we know or be able to figure out who is the wolf in sheep's clothing or who is twisting scripture? Scripture tells us that there will be false prophets/messiahs who will deceive us. Scripture says it's going to happen so how do we know when it has happened and who it is?

As we know there will come a time when people will not put up with sound doctrine and to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. Do you believe there is no way we will know when this time has come and who those "teachers" are???? If they are turning to false teachers and away from Truth doesn't that suggest that there is somebody teaching The Truth??? Do you have a desire to know WHO that is or what that Truth is???

There are MANY people who believe they have heard Gods voice. They have started a new "Christian" denomination on that 'word from God'. They would say they had a "regular [daily?] communication with God and a daily renewed or continuing connection." How do we figure out which one of them "never loved the truth or whose love for truth has faded"? Or which ones "may be in delusion"?

You stated, "Of course when a person is deluded, he does not know it". Doesn't that make it possible that everything you just wrote is a delusional theory? Maybe what I believe is delusional? How will we ever know??

Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

If a person is not truly hearing from God (they are "deluded") and they twist scripture and are a sheep (or shepherd) in wolves clothing is there no scriptural guidance on what to do with those persons?

If we are walking with God when the situation is before us to deal with then God will tells us how to deal with it. You want a general rule which may work most of the time, but we may find ourselves in trouble when the general rule does not apply.

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." Psalm 37:23

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

Yes, it is our business to know the answer

. Shouldn't we know or be able to figure out who is the wolf in sheep's clothing or who is twisting scripture? Scripture tells us that there will be false prophets/messiahs who will deceive us. Scripture says it's going to happen so how do we know when it has happened and who it is?

You asked if we should be concerned and my answer included the possibility of a 'yes' answer. When the door is clearly open then we should help as we can, but when the person has closed the door in our face we are not to knock the door down to make a point or to press the person with unwanted help.

Sometimes it is not our business even though we are concerned. When my children were 10 years old and had a problem it concerned me and I needed to help them deal with it. When they were 30 years and had a problem I was concerned, but if they told me to mind my own business, I did, even though the concern remained.

God always knows the solution to any problem we have, but He gave us to right to refuse His help. To do so would be foolish, but people quite often are foolish.

As we know there will come a time when people will not put up with sound doctrine and to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. Do you believe there is no way we will know when this time has come and who those "teachers" are???? If they are turning to false teachers and away from Truth doesn't that suggest that there is somebody teaching The Truth??? Do you have a desire to know WHO that is or what that Truth is???

When it applies to me, the responsibility to see or understand what is happening and act accordingly is mine. When it applies to someone else for whom I have no direct responsibility I may see or understand the need to offer my help to the person or God may direct me to offer help, but if the person clearly says, 'bud out', my options are very limited. God does not force feed anyone and neither should we.

There are MANY people who believe they have heard Gods voice. They have started a new "Christian" denomination on that 'word from God'. They would say they had a "regular [daily?] communication with God and a daily renewed or continuing connection." How do we figure out which one of them "never loved the truth or whose love for truth has faded"? Or which ones "may be in delusion"?

If we are hearing God's voice and He wants us to know the answers to your questions about a person, we will. If we are not hearing Him and the person who may be deluded doesn't provide the information, we cannot figure it out. At least, I cannot.

You stated, "Of course when a person is deluded, he does not know it". Doesn't that make it possible that everything you just wrote is a delusional theory? Maybe what I believe is delusional? How will we ever know??

The solution have found to keep myself out of delusion or getting myself out is found here:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

On a daily basis, sometimes more often than that, we need to go to the "lowest room" with God and let Him elevate us if He chooses to do so. If we elevate ourselves, we are likely to end up demoted instead.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

Sure we KNOW...that we are His.
I would guess that if we are unsure, then we are not!!

We know HIS voice ...and He knows ours!!

1 John 5:13-15
13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him. "

Thank you BG. You make a very good point. I have learned over the years that scripture, like history, needs to be put in context.

What you have quoted is the "epilogue" of 1 John. John is saying that he wrote those things to those that (already) believe in Him so that they may know that they have eternal life and John re-assured them that they may believe, with confidence, on His name.

The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the members of Westboro Baptist Church believe what John wrote. They believe that they are practicing what John wrote. Would you say they know His voice?

Scripture says that false messiahs/prophets will appear and deceive even the elect. A time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead they will gather around them teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. Does that not make it possible that you and I THINK we are hearing (and know) his voice when we may actually be only hearing what our ears want to hear???

Mary

 

[Marymog]

If we are walking with God when the situation is before us to deal with then God will tells us how to deal with it. You want a general rule which may work most of the time, but we may find ourselves in trouble when the general rule does not apply.

Thank you.

If I am walking with God and you are not then God has already told US how to deal with the "situation" and it is a general rule: Matthew 18:15

Mary

 

[Marymog]

You asked if we should be concerned and my answer included the possibility of a 'yes' answer. When the door is clearly open then we should help as we can, but when the person has closed the door in our face we are not to knock the door down to make a point or to press the person with unwanted help.

Sometimes it is not our business even though we are concerned. When my children were 10 years old and had a problem it concerned me and I needed to help them deal with it. When they were 30 years and had a problem I was concerned, but if they told me to mind my own business, I did, even though the concern remained.

God always knows the solution to any problem we have, but He gave us to right to refuse His help. To do so would be foolish, but people quite often are foolish.

The above is your response to this question: Shouldn't we know or be able to figure out who is the wolf in sheep's clothing or who is twisting scripture? Scripture tells us that there will be false prophets/messiahs who will deceive us. Scripture says it's going to happen so how do we know when it has happened and who it is?

I don't see an answer to my questions but maybe your being cryptic and I just can't decipher it.....moving on.