I believe that anyone that acknowledges they are sinful and reach out to God through Jesus have already put to death their sinfulness in the eyes of God.
All are under sin
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I believe that anyone that acknowledges they are sinful and reach out to God through Jesus have already put to death their sinfulness in the eyes of God.
Prentis
New Member
Is God somehow blinded from the current reality?
Of course not, God sees things as they are. He has mercy, and he sees the weakness of men. But he doesn't put our sin under the carpet and say 'now, let's act like it never happened'.
Our sin and flesh is crucified, put to death. Not hidden. Then we walk by the new life.
Of course not, God sees things as they are. He has mercy, and he sees the weakness of men. But he doesn't put our sin under the carpet and say 'now, let's act like it never happened'.
Our sin and flesh is crucified, put to death. Not hidden. Then we walk by the new life.
You've titled this thread "All are under sin", but now you are saying we are not under sin? It's contradictory, as most of what you teach is, the problem arises when a person believes there are many gospels and not just one, who we are depends on which gospel we follow although Jesus has brought us all together, under one covenant, with no differences between Jew and Greek.
If we sin, we are no longer sinless in God's eyes, we must repent for our sins and ask for forgiveness. We are responsible for the sins we commit, as we mature and grow our sins become less and less IF we are abiding in Christ and walking with Him, otherwise, a person is doing THEIR own thing and not His Will. If you continue in your sin, you are being the god of you own life and not allowing Him to be God.
Your belief is dangerous to believers and is the same as the mainstream church buildings have done, they have downplayed the part of us, we are to walk as He walked, be Holy as He is Holy, go and sin no more. We are the example and the light of the world in HIm, how can we be the light, when there are doctrines, such as yours, minimizing sin and it's destructiveness. Sin=death.
Since the scriptures say, we are placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit then what God see is a reconciled sinful person. You just can't seem to see that God's gospel of grace saves sinners; it washes, justifies, and sanctifies us "in Christ'" spiritually. IMHO, you can't see it because you continue to refuse God's grace "in Christ" as being sufficent for salvation and only see that you have to do something to earn it and or keep it. You insist that there is something a person has to do to finish the job of salvation; that a person has to do something to earn it.
You said He doesn't put our sins under the carpet. You had certainly hope that He does because you sin just like the rest of us. There is a place in scripture where God said He would not remember the sins of His Children.
On the one hand you say that there isn't anything that we can do for salvation and then on the other hand tell us that we MUST (a law) walk in a new life and I know you mean a new life trying to make perfect the sinful flesh. The children of God walk in the spirit and have no confidence in the flesh.
Paul did not say he was sinless in the flesh. I am not sinless in the flesh and neither are you. You sin just as like the rest of us.
Rubbish! There is only one gospel in effect during this age of God's grace and it isn't the gospel that Jesus and the 12 taught. That gospel was to the Jews trying to get them to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King. The gospel for this age is the one that Paul taught; a gospel of God's grace through Jesus' shed blood.
You teach that a person can become sinless in the flesh and I disagree. No where did Paul say we become sinless in the flesh.
You totally make void the gospel of grace. Your belief is dangerous to believers because it teaches that you must earn your salvation by what you do; that you must go back under the law of works to earn salvation. That says that what Jesus did on the cross was not sufficent for a person's salvation. Since you feel a person has to earn their salvation you would make a good Jew because they thought they could earn theirs by keeping the Law of Moses.
What amazies me is that there are so many that do not really understand that since all men sin God made a plan of salvation that saves sinners by what HE did on the cross. If people do not accept His work on the cross as sufficent for their salvation then they are not placing their faith in what He did on the cross, and in my opinion they are not saved.
Are we forgiven? Yep. If we were to die right now, would we be welcomed into His arms? Yep. Would we hear "well done, good and faithful servant?"....I don't know. That depends on what we have done with our salvation. Have we taken that free gift and lived a life worthy of it? Have we used it to grow in love and knowledge...using it to love God more, love others more? That comes down to every individual. The point is this....while God deems our lives to keep playing out, we are to use it for Him. This is not 'dead time'....just us hanging around on this mortal coil waiting for God to bring us home now we are redeemed. The joy within us needs to be shared with the lost! Used to encourage our church family, and of course, to grow closer to Jesus, seeking out and trampling those things in us that hamper that very goal!
How are you living for Him? Are you teaching the Gospel of God's grace that saves sinners? Do you really think your works are that great? Hasn't God already said our works are as filthy rags. We live for Him when we gloryfy Him by placing our faith in what He did on the cross.
He will say "well done" only if they placed their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' shed blood on the cross and that is becoming very difficult when those saying they are Christians claim that to be a Christian a person has to overcome their sinful thoughts by their own efforts and become sinless in the flesh and if you don't become sinless then you are not saved.
It was grace from the very beginning, God's grace isn't anything new and it's not just for "us today". To speak of a different gospel like grace didn't exist before Jesus' death is a complete misunderstanding of who God is and what the gospel is about.
The only reason we can do any of what we do as believers is because of Him, He is what it is all about, He paved the way so that those of us who are being saved may conform to His image. You are teaching that it's impossible to do this, yet this is what the Bible has told us to do. Who am I to listen to? We are to "walk as Jesus walked", yet, now you are teaching we aren't really supposed to walk as He walked. Who am I to believe?
The entire Bible points to Jesus - ONE - your teaching of what Paul taught is completely misrepresenting what Paul taught! Here is what he taught:
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises (what God has given to us), dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthliness of the flesh and the spirit; perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (This is what we do).
Christ made us free from sin, so why should we continue in sin? - Romans 6:18,22. We were delivered from the power of darnkess - Colossians 1:13, so reckon yourself dead to sin, but made alive in Christ. Let not sin reign in your mortal body so you should obey the lusts thereof. If you live after the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live, for those following the Spirit of God, these are the Sons of God. For sin shall not be master over you. We can only serve one master.
Paul spent alot of time speaking of longsuffering, perseverance, running the race! Most of his writings were telling us what we need to do! It's these things we do, in the power of the gospel, in Christ, which causes us to overcome. I have been crucified with Christ, He lives in me now - He is the overcomer! If He is in us - we can overcome, through Him. All things are possible with Christ!
Whoa! Just take a breath! When did I ever say that I am attempting, by my own efforts, to become sinless and redeemed? I didn't! Only Jesus can give me salvation. And I thank God for it! I am well aware that anything I could ever serve up would be nothing more than a disgusting joke. But once we have that wonderful gift of salvation...once we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and convicting us of sin, don't you think it behoves us, from gratitude if nothing else, to repent when convicted, to love others when called to, and to always...always, glorify God for what He has done? The more we realise that it's not about us, the more we realise that Jesus is everything, has done everything...the more we become like Him. And we are told, that while not in any way contributing to our salvation, that we are still to live for Jesus, to seek out his holiness and righteousness. To spend our days loving him and others. Is that wrong? The bible tells us it is not. Jesus has saved me...full stop. And I follow Him, doing the works He has set out for me, not because I have to, but because I get to, because I love him.
Prentis
New Member
God saves sinners not by hiding their sins. He will forgive us if we are humble and repentant.
But the power of Christ is not power to hide more sins, that is a powerless gospel, it is the power to overcome sin!
By him, all things are possible. As Jake said, we are to walk as he walked.
We must crucify the old nature, and by walking in the new, overcome.
So a person has to make him/her self perfect in the flesh, right?
Galatians 3:1-3
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
NKJV
Walk with God as He directs but don't get on a forum and claim that you are becoming perfect in the flesh. That is boasting about your self. If you wish to boast then boast of the fact that Jesus saves sinners and we are all sinners.
Galatians 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV
Romans 2:17-24
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
NKJV
Most Christians understand that God wants them to be obedient.
Some mistakenly make obedience a prerequisite for salvation
(justification), and this puts them under the bondage of trying to
be good enough to merit salvation. That view is held by those
who do not know the difference between Passover and Pentecost.
Passover brings us justification by faith, apart from works (Rom. 3:28).
Pentecost, however, brings us into obedience and cannot be
separated from our works.
In Pentecost, we are led by the Spirit to do whatever God leads us
(or tells us) to do each day. That is the meaning of obedience. It
directly affects everything we do. If a person claims to be filled with
the Spirit, but refuses to be obedient, he is not a true Pentecostal.
2 Cor. 10:5 says that we conduct spiritual warfare for this purpose:
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty
thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and
we are taking every thought captive to the obedience
of Christ.
The Apostle Peter confirms this, saying in 1 Peter 1:14 and 15,
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the
former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves
also in all your behavior.
We need not belabor this point, since most people understand that
obedience is a virtue. As I see it, the more important problem is that
people have dissociated obedience from the law. It is not that the first
five books of Moses represent the entire law. It is not. The law is the
entire written word, along with every spoken word that God has ever
said to men on an individual basis. Whatever God tells men to do is
a law, simply because it requires obedience. The only qualifier to this
is that men must also pray to know the will of God in every command.
If we try to obey according to our carnal understanding, we are sure to
fail regardless of our “good intentions.”
Logabe
Some mistakenly make obedience a prerequisite for salvation
(justification), and this puts them under the bondage of trying to
be good enough to merit salvation. That view is held by those
who do not know the difference between Passover and Pentecost.
Passover brings us justification by faith, apart from works (Rom. 3:28).
Pentecost, however, brings us into obedience and cannot be
separated from our works.
In Pentecost, we are led by the Spirit to do whatever God leads us
(or tells us) to do each day. That is the meaning of obedience. It
directly affects everything we do. If a person claims to be filled with
the Spirit, but refuses to be obedient, he is not a true Pentecostal.
2 Cor. 10:5 says that we conduct spiritual warfare for this purpose:
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty
thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and
we are taking every thought captive to the obedience
of Christ.
The Apostle Peter confirms this, saying in 1 Peter 1:14 and 15,
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the
former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves
also in all your behavior.
We need not belabor this point, since most people understand that
obedience is a virtue. As I see it, the more important problem is that
people have dissociated obedience from the law. It is not that the first
five books of Moses represent the entire law. It is not. The law is the
entire written word, along with every spoken word that God has ever
said to men on an individual basis. Whatever God tells men to do is
a law, simply because it requires obedience. The only qualifier to this
is that men must also pray to know the will of God in every command.
If we try to obey according to our carnal understanding, we are sure to
fail regardless of our “good intentions.”
Logabe
Prentis
New Member
You have read this before, and others have told you before, but you are unwilling to hear it :mellow:
Those who walk by the spirit do not fulfill the deeds of the flesh. You have no faith in the power of the new creation. The new creation is Christ in us which empowers us to overcome by the spirit.
Amen brother!
We are warned in the last days, there will be people who deny His power. These are the people who simply believe in God, but that is it, that God does not have supernatural abilities, can not break His own laws of nature and believe He sure can't help His children overcome, which of these is too hard for Him? None! He is God!
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
I don't question the fact that we overcome the deeds of the flesh "in the spirit." What I disagree with is your teaching that we must overcome the deeds of the flesh """by the flesh""" and you are unwilling to hear it. You can't seem to know the difference between flesh and spirit. --- There is no one alive today that does not sin in the flesh so tell me all about this new FLESH man that does not sin?.
Today Jesus is our Ark and it was “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be spiritually (not fleshly) placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them.
Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, are kept from the judgment of the law. ------ If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us. --- This is the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.
Prentis
New Member
So Jesus didn't live in the flesh? Or he wasn't perfect?
We can live fully in the Spirit while having our abode in this earhtly body. The Spirit can overcome the flesh. That is the gospel; behold, all things are new, and by the new we obercome.
We can live fully in the Spirit while having our abode in this earhtly body. The Spirit can overcome the flesh. That is the gospel; behold, all things are new, and by the new we obercome.
You are denying Gods power. God showed His power on the cross; a power that saves sinners who can not save themselves. You don't think He can do that. You think a person has to clean him/her self up by doing works and that is placing man's power above God's power. You claim to be "a new man" in the flesh and yet you still sin. Sorry but the "new man" is a spiritual being, born again. The spiritual man does not sin in his sprit because it is born of God but he still sins in the flesh just like you do (Romans 7).
Have you ever considered that many today have a form of godliness in what they do in the flesh and at the same time have no faith in the power of the blood?
Prentis
New Member
You believe that the very cross you preach has NO power to actually put to death the old man in you. Where as Jake does. the power of the cross is not to hide your sins, but to crucify them.
We are to put to death the deeds of the flesh, how? Through Christ's power.
He has the power to help us overcome all in this life, that is the power you are denying.
To you, the only thing He did was die on the cross. When He died and was resurrected, it paved a way for us, in Him, to be overcomers, with His power.
The Bible says to OBEY His commandments, you teach there is nothing we do, that even if we do continue in our sin, that it's not a big deal, but it is a big deal, otherwise there would be no mention of not sinning in the Bible.
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