All eschatological views are correct?

[stunnedbygrace]

God does not leave us. We leave Him and He casts us out as a result. But He has done so by placing before us life and death, with the instructions to choose life.

But what we decide-- that's forever.

Yes, the second death is forever. It is to be dead, never, ever to rise again. It is not to be alive and tortured forever.

 

[Truth7t7]

Bye.

I agree "Bye"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God does not leave us. We leave Him and He casts us out as a result. But He has done so by placing before us life and death, with the instructions to choose life.

But what we decide-- that's forever.

And “what we decide” would require it’s own conversation.
Doctrines of men have done great harm as regards this also.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claim is "false", found no place in my statement below

Quote Truth7t7:
Your claim of "Accusation" is false, the fact is you and stunnedbygrace promote the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and 7th Day Adventist (Annihilation) yes it's my opinion and that of Millions of others it's a false doctrine

So you have no stronger argument? You can't explain why I am wrong or you are right?

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, you are right, in man's eyes, all eschatological views are correct, that is called political correctness. But in God's eyes that is not so, not everything that man accepts as being true is, and in reality, those views take man far from God. Talk to God and seek what He thinks about our understanding of His salvation.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

I agree, and one more thing. When it says they have no rest day or night, I believe this speaks of their time on this earth, not their time in the lake of fire. I think we are seeing this state of mind today. Some people are never satisfied with the current state of affairs. If a change is made to accommodate them, they want more. And if the change isn't happening quick enough, they get angry and pout. Such people are tormented day and night: never satisfied, never happy, lacking love and peace and solitude.

Have you seen this?

This is the reference to day and night in Revelation 14:9-11:

As it has been foretold since the beginning, the evening is darkness (night) and the times of this world. The morning or light or day refers to the kingdom, to eternity.

But the issue is rather that of understanding eternity. We have no business arguing over what is eternal--it is simply defined as "forever." Thus, whether we discuss eternal life, or eternal death or damnation...we have nothing more to offer, unless it is revealed by God, which He has done already by saying "forever." And, He has already defined it, as "without beginning or end."

So, then, if both life and death share the same "forever" definition--why argue? Do those who mean to say that "forever" is different for the dead than it is for the living; that the blessings of perpetual goodness of heaven are not as promised, but are finished as the punishments of the dead are?

It is a good argument!

But this I will say, whether one hears or believes it--God knows; but we speak of opposites, not similarities. Therefore, death is the end, but life in God is the beginning. The one is death, but the other is birth. But unless we consider Enoch...this too only leads to further misunderstanding.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But the issue is rather that of understanding eternity. We have no business arguing over what is eternal--it is simply defined as "forever." Thus, whether we discuss eternal life, or eternal death or damnation...we have nothing more to offer, unless it is revealed by God, which He has done already by saying "forever." And, He has already defined it, as "without beginning or end."

It’s just ridiculous, really. If live forever means to never die but to live forever, (which they believe will be their fate) then to be dead forever cannot be made to be to live forever also. It’s so absurd. And especially after saying there is only one way to eternal life! They make being given Gods Spirit as one way to eternal life and not having Gods Spirit as another way to eternal life. It’s almost…insane.

And then they also make perish to mean to live eternally and destroy to mean to live eternally. They change the meaning of everything to mean something opposite. And the result is to turn God into a monster who is perfectly fine with eternal torment existing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is the reference to day and night in Revelation 14:9-11:

As it has been foretold since the beginning, the evening is darkness (night) and the times of this world. The morning or light or day refers to the kingdom, to eternity.

But the issue is rather that of understanding eternity. We have no business arguing over what is eternal--it is simply defined as "forever." Thus, whether we discuss eternal life, or eternal death or damnation...we have nothing more to offer, unless it is revealed by God, which He has done already by saying "forever." And, He has already defined it, as "without beginning or end."

So, then, if both life and death share the same "forever" definition--why argue? Do those who mean to say that "forever" is different for the dead than it is for the living; that the blessings of perpetual goodness of heaven are not as promised, but are finished as the punishments of the dead are?

It is a good argument!

But this I will say, whether one hears or believes it--God knows; but we speak of opposites, not similarities. Therefore, death is the end, but life in God is the beginning. The one is death, but the other is birth. But unless we consider Enoch...this too only leads to further misunderstanding.

The concept of "forever" is complicated and nuanced, and depends on the context for clarification. For instance, suppose I have a pocket watch with a broken spring. If I never, ever get the watch repaired, then it will be broken "forever." But the possibility remains that the pocket watch can be fixed if I find the right spring.

But let's say that I am on vacation at a national park. And while looking over the edge of a volcano, I happen to drop my cell phone in the lava. The cell phone is gone. It can never be retrieved, which means it can never be repaired. It is gone forever. And there is no possibility that it can ever come back to me.

In that context, the salient point is that I can't ever retrieve the cell phone. Who knows, it might melt in the lava forever (I doubt it) but that isn't the point.

The Lake of fire isn't a place where people go to be tormented endlessly. People are put into the lake of fire so they never return.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And if you will be judged as you have judged, that’s just darn scary what that means they are doing to themselves.

 

[doxley]

It is correct. To you, all men live eternally. It’s not life or death to you. It’s a good life or a bad life. But in doing that, you present God as a horrible monster who would leave human beings in an eternity of torment rather than ever be merciful enough to put someone out of their misery. Eternity, marks. Never ending torment. As if God would be perfectly fine with eternal suffering. It is to portray Him in a very bad light.

I couldn't have put it better, along with your remarks about eternal life and eternal death. If we all agree that death is actually death, then it answers everything

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I couldn't have put it better, along with your remarks about eternal life and eternal death. If we all agree that death is actually death, then it answers everything

I can’t even determine WHY someone would keep insisting on portraying God that way AND keep changing the meanings of words in many, many verses telling of perishing and destroying in order to continue with the portrayal.
Is it some unforgiveness in them that would make them keep it up…? Is it a strange blindness? What oh what is the reason for it?!

That would be a God one would reject, not one to cling to!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And if you will be judged as you have judged, that’s just darn scary what that means they are doing to themselves.

And when you consider the outer darkness and WHO the parables say will be cast there, it becomes a true horror…I believe the outer darkness is the prison spoke of in the one parable where you will not come out of until you pay the last farthing. It’s too horrifying to comprehend what men do to themselves by judging and pronouncing others to eternal torture. I believe it’s how Jesus could say it would be more tolerable on that day for sodom than for some others, and how there will be more stripes or less stripes.

They pronounce the worst fate for others when the worst fate is reserved for some among US.

 

[doxley]

Statement of faith in what groups, please identify your groups claimed?

Actually the Pope is making statements about hell most recently, POPE JOHN PAUL II this year stated that Hell is not a physical place but “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God.” He denied that Hell is a place of fiery torment and described it rather as “the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God.

The church of England is taking a similar stance saying; CHURCH OF ENGLAND: “The Church of England has redefined hell. Rather than a place of eternal suffering, hell is a state of nothingness. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: “I do not believe in hell as a place of a literal burning fire” (Ebony magazine, January 1961).

Other organisations
United church of God
www.churchathome.org/
That was just after a quick search. I think there is something of a 2nd reformation going on regarding this doctrine.

 

[ScottA]

The concept of "forever" is complicated and nuanced, and depends on the context for clarification. For instance, suppose I have a pocket watch with a broken spring. If I never, ever get the watch repaired, then it will be broken "forever." But the possibility remains that the pocket watch can be fixed if I find the right spring.

But let's say that I am on vacation at a national park. And while looking over the edge of a volcano, I happen to drop my cell phone in the lava. The cell phone is gone. It can never be retrieved, which means it can never be repaired. It is gone forever. And there is no possibility that it can ever come back to me.

In that context, the salient point is that I can't ever retrieve the cell phone. Who knows, it might melt in the lava forever (I doubt it) but that isn't the point.

The Lake of fire isn't a place where people go to be tormented endlessly. People are put into the lake of fire so they never return.

I agree, but there is a great deal of misunderstanding in the logic of times vs. eternity. Thus, the issue.

The problem, our problem, is it takes the renewing of our mind to fully embrace the idea that time is a mere illusion. And as long as we have time, we will likely argue about it.

 

[marks]

I agree, but there is a great deal of misunderstanding in the logic of times vs. eternity. Thus, the issue.

The problem, our problem, is it takes the renewing of our mind to fully embrace the idea that time is a mere illusion. And as long as we have time, we will likely argue about it.

I expect so! Concepts of time, and concepts of life and death . . .

I'm starting to come around more in thinking more of time as you do, It is finished.

Even now . . . I expect some will insist that every walking around on the planet is alive, though the Bible declares those who do not know God to be dead. But is that believed? Or is the "sight" what is believed? The Word of God? Or what things look like?

This is one of the ways I appreciate your posts, you basically always give the call to focus on faith, and not sight.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually the Pope is making statements about hell most recently, POPE JOHN PAUL II this year stated that Hell is not a physical place but “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God.” He denied that Hell is a place of fiery torment and described it rather as “the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God.

The church of England is taking a similar stance saying; CHURCH OF ENGLAND: “The Church of England has redefined hell. Rather than a place of eternal suffering, hell is a state of nothingness. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: “I do not believe in hell as a place of a literal burning fire” (Ebony magazine, January 1961).

Other organisations
United church of God
www.churchathome.org/
That was just after a quick search. I think there is something of a 2nd reformation going on regarding this doctrine.

Thanks for the response, yes we are seeing the great "Apostasy" before our eyes, Adding to many denominational beliefs not believing hell or the lake of fire is eternal torment, also added is the following:

1. Acceptance of same sex marriage, and practicing homosexuals into full membership, including leadership roles such as Bishop/Deacon

2. Women in leadership roles, Bishop/Deacon

3. Adultery, divorce and remarriage while the spouse lives, no questions asked

 

[Truth7t7]

I expect so! Concepts of time, and concepts of life and death . . .

I'm starting to come around more in thinking more of time as you do, It is finished.

Even now . . . I expect some will insist that every walking around on the planet is alive, though the Bible declares those who do not know God to be dead. But is that believed? Or is the "sight" what is believed? The Word of God? Or what things look like?

This is one of the ways I appreciate your posts, you basically always give the call to focus on faith, and not sight.

Much love!

Luke 18:7-8KJV
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[doxley]

Thanks for the response, yes we are seeing the great "Apostasy" before our eyes, Adding to many denominational beliefs not believing hell or the lake of fire is eternal torment, also added is the following:

1. Acceptance of same sex marriage, and practicing homosexuals into full membership, including leadership roles such as Bishop/Deacon

2. Women in leadership roles, Bishop/Deacon

3. Adultery, divorce and remarriage while the spouse lives, no questions asked

I'm only talking about eternal torment, that is completely different to the issues you raised above so there is no point bringing them into the conversation. I kind of knew you would.

 

[ScottA]

Thanks for the response, yes we are seeing the great "Apostasy" before our eyes, Adding to many denominational beliefs not believing hell or the lake of fire is eternal torment, also added is the following:

1. Acceptance of same sex marriage, and practicing homosexuals into full membership, including leadership roles such as Bishop/Deacon

2. Women in leadership roles, Bishop/Deacon

3. Adultery, divorce and remarriage while the spouse lives, no questions asked

These are all real problems for sure, but we should be careful not to lump in those suffering the careless, immature, and elementary nature of children slow to learn, with those who by their craft do wickedness against the word of truth.

As for great apostasy...that is another deep well, including much confusion.

 

[doxley]

Thanks for the response, yes we are seeing the great "Apostasy" before our eyes, Adding to many denominational beliefs not believing hell or the lake of fire is eternal torment, also added is the following:

1. Acceptance of same sex marriage, and practicing homosexuals into full membership, including leadership roles such as Bishop/Deacon

2. Women in leadership roles, Bishop/Deacon

3. Adultery, divorce and remarriage while the spouse lives, no questions asked

Also, the Eastern Orthodox church don't believe in a fiery hell, and they are as old as the Catholics.