All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !

[Heyzeus]

Then you are a unitarian by default since you deny the Deity of Christ. Its as simple as that. The facts are the facts.

And I thought you claimed to understand the trinity(which you do not) and now have no clue what a unitarian is lol.

I love the irony.

I havn't denied anything ... have you nothing but false accusations in your deck ?

Which God do you refer to ? As the answer to the question depends on it ....

or perhaps another way of asking would be .. which part of the godhead are you referring to ? ... and what on earth does this have to do with this label you desperately want to attach to me .. in yet another attempt at Ad Hom demonization ... because your foundation is weak, and your deck is empty .. of anything of value.

OK ... so other than false and/or unsupported accusations - which you refuse to clarify - .. do you have anything else you wanted to contribute ?

 

[Heyzeus]

Sir, "Who cares" shows that you do not.

Right ... because some unrelated passage from another part of scripture - is irrelevant to what Jesus is saying in John - and especially if it is in a desperate attempt to avoid the Teachings "Directly From Jesus" in John .. as opposed to some errant passage from someone who never knew Jesus and never tells us any details of his life nor any of his sayings ?

First address the material in front of us .. then -and only then - ask us to consider other stuff from other areas .. making sure you show how it is related ..

For example .. If I am talking about the Sermon on the Mount - Sermon of Jesus - an entire Sermon - where getting through the pearly gates is the central theme. ..

First line .. Blessed are the "poor" in Spirit .. for Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven Hopefully you know this one ... if you read nothing else in the NT .. Matt 5-7 would suffice on giving one proper instructions through the pearly gates.

and on this topic .. we are discussing Judgement - who does the Judging .. and perhaps more importantly "how" we are judged .. and what we are judged on. As per this Sermon and having only this to go on ... How is this question answered ?

Fortunately for us .. all of these questions are answered in this Sermon .. the question "What is the will of the Father ? is asked .. and answered very directly ... The golden Rule being the top of the Food chain .. as attested to by both Paul and James .. in a rare bout of agreement between the two. The Royal Law ..

"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself"

or "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right"

or "Love Neighbor as Self" - " This rule Sums up the Law and The Prophets"
.
The above is the same thing .. said by 3 different people A) Jesus B) Paul C) James so it is legitimate to bring this in ...

After .. you have first addressed - as in commented on - the Teachings of Jesus as per John 5 in my post ...

The answer to the quiz btw is PjJ had two names starting with (J) Jesus is the Capitalized one ..

 

[justbyfaith]

Hope for me ? - I am not the one who is committing the unforgivable sin - ignoring the Teachings of Jesus in Matt/Mark - the closest we have to the real Jesus in Scripture.

If you don't confess your sin, you won't be forgiven.

Distinct being the operative word = different from - and separate from - the Father and the Spirit.

No, not separate from.

I don't care what others say to you - if you have no understanding of what gnostism is - as you have now stated - you have no business claiming that this or that is "Gnostic" - because you have no clue what you are talking about .. and have admitted this.

I have knowledge of what gnosticism is from Christian sources who have looked into it with the understanding that it is heresy.

I have not read any of the original gnostic documents lest I become deceived by them.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Faith in Jesus is not a "Work" .. sorry.

I agree...and yet Jesus, using a literary tactic, identified it as a work, in John 6:28-29, in order to point out that salvation is by faith alone...by saying that, if you insist on being saved by works, I will call faith a work and say that it is the only work that you will be saved by.

and go running to other parts of the Bible to cherry pick verses that you think will help your case.

Why are you so desperate to ignore scripture ?

First, I am cherry-picking scripture; and then, I am ignoring scripture.

Which one is it?

You pointed to one part of scripture .. making a claim that Jesus was not subordinate to the Father ...

I made no such claim.

You then run from the scripture that you yourself presented and cherry pick from another part of the Bible .. I didn't check but probably again not taking context into consideration .. What is with this behavior ?

In Matthew 2:15, Matthew, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, quotes Hosea 11:1 out of its original context in order to make a point...applying the term "son of God" to Jesus instead of Israel as in the text quoted from.

Also, in 2 Corinthians 9:6, you will come up with health and wealth gospel / word of faith teaching if you read it in its immediate context...while if you use the hermeneutic of topical context found in 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv) and compare it to Luke 8:11, you will come up with a more orthodox interpretation.

Really - is that what God did .. and God told you this over tea did he ... cause it sure as heck is not in scripture.

yes, God gave me the revelation "over tea".

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

"incarnation/emanation" Please explain the difference between these two .. in the context of "The Father stayed behind - but some incarnation of the Father went somewhere else" - and good luck.

First of all, I need you to define what you mean by "emanation"

I will define incarnation for you here...

After one eternal moment, the Father descended into time to become a Man in the hypostatic union,

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary...and the resulting zygote was the Son of God, who would grow up to be Jesus Christ (see Luke 1:35).

The Person who would come to exist would be 100% God and 100% Man.

While the same Spirit who incarnated as the Son also is an eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14, Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and who by nature cannot cease to dwell in eternity since someone who dwells in eternity by definition must be there eternally. That Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24). (Try to wrap your mind around these concepts as they are not too difficult to understand, though a bit esoteric in nature).

You are describing a part of the Godhead going forth ... going somewhere else .. which is exactly the definition of an emanation from God - going forward - while the other stays behind.

Not a part of the Godhead...all of it.

This is not surprising as there nowhere in scripture does Jesus claim to be "the Father"..

He claims that the Father is "Lord of heaven and earth" (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Now scripture says there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, Mark 12:29).

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)), even the Spirit of truth.

And Jesus is the one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

How then is Jesus not the Father?

I havn't denied anything ... have you nothing but false accusations in your deck ?

So you affirm that Jesus is God?

 

[justbyfaith]

Right ... because some unrelated passage from another part of scripture - is irrelevant to what Jesus is saying in John - and especially if it is in a desperate attempt to avoid the Teachings "Directly From Jesus" in John .. as opposed to some errant passage from someone who never knew Jesus and never tells us any details of his life nor any of his sayings ?

First address the material in front of us .. then -and only then - ask us to consider other stuff from other areas .. making sure you show how it is related ..

For example .. If I am talking about the Sermon on the Mount - Sermon of Jesus - an entire Sermon - where getting through the pearly gates is the central theme. ..

First line .. Blessed are the "poor" in Spirit .. for Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven Hopefully you know this one ... if you read nothing else in the NT .. Matt 5-7 would suffice on giving one proper instructions through the pearly gates.

and on this topic .. we are discussing Judgement - who does the Judging .. and perhaps more importantly "how" we are judged .. and what we are judged on. As per this Sermon and having only this to go on ... How is this question answered ?

Fortunately for us .. all of these questions are answered in this Sermon .. the question "What is the will of the Father ? is asked .. and answered very directly ... The golden Rule being the top of the Food chain .. as attested to by both Paul and James .. in a rare bout of agreement between the two. The Royal Law ..

"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself"

or "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right"

or "Love Neighbor as Self" - " This rule Sums up the Law and The Prophets"
.
The above is the same thing .. said by 3 different people A) Jesus B) Paul C) James so it is legitimate to bring this in ...

After .. you have first addressed - as in commented on - the Teachings of Jesus as per John 5 in my post ...

The answer to the quiz btw is PjJ had two names starting with (J) Jesus is the Capitalized one ..

What you are not seeing is that all of mankind is born dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

The only way, therefore, that anyone can truly love another person is through faith in Jesus Christ.

For we receive the Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14).

And the love of God is only given through the Holy Ghost (i.e. the Spirit) (Romans 5:5).

No one can truly love in the way that God requires it apart from the Holy Ghost, is what this means.

So, first things first.

Get saved; and then worry about being obedient to the Sermon on the Mount.

But don't think that you are going to be saved through the keeping of it.

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved (?) through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[kcnalp]

1) Context matters
2) John 14 .. right .. but this does not mean that Jesus is claiming to be the Father.

I repeat: I have never claimed Jesus is the Father. Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God of the Bible. They are distinct!

 

[kcnalp]

Do you believe Jesus is God ? yes or no

Don't expect a clear answer. lol

 

[kcnalp]

What a stupid question ... Which God ?

What a stupid answer. See, I told you not to expect an answer from this person.

 

[justbyfaith]

I repeat: I have never claimed Jesus is the Father. Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God of the Bible. They are distinct!

However, he is not only discussing these issues with you, he is also discussing them with me...

And I do claim that Jesus' Spirit is the same Spirit as the Father; while He is distinct from the Father in that He is come in the flesh (the hypostatic union).

 

[Heyzeus]

What you are not seeing is that all of mankind is born dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

The only way, therefore, that anyone can truly love another person is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Not sure why you are preaching Pauline Scripture .... as if I don't know it much better than you ? but nowhere do I see any comments related to my post... but thank you for the message..

I have actually been posting from Paul Galations 5 .. in a rare bout of agreement between Paul and James - on the Royal Law of Scripture.


Paul - "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself"

James "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right"

Jesus "Love Neighbor as Self" - " This rule Sums up the Law and The Prophets"
.
but on to other matters .. check out this passage from Psalm 82 - properly translated from original text - with modern reading (think it might be KJV) on the side. The Bible being translated is the Westminser Leningrad codex

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

Modern Translation - "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods"

WM Codex "Elohim - one being stationed in the congregation of El - in within of - Elohim - he is Judging"

So we have the "Council of El" and there is no doubt that El - the Most High - is being referred to because the Proper name is used.

So YHWH is standing in a Council of the Gods - and he is Judging.

So who are these God's that YHWH is Judging ? and who is this El Fellow who heads op the Congregation of the Gods .. the Congregation of the Mighty one ..

Sad that modern copyists remove the name of "the Most High" - "God who dwells in the Mountain" - "The Father" "The Creator" and so much more .. from the Text.

but wait there's more a few lines down ! Psalm 82:6 YHWH is speaking ..

"I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High"

"Children of El - those "Sons of God" that keep cropping up in so many places in the OT .. finally you don't have to wonder about their identity. These are the "Children of the Most High" The Sons of El talked about in Deut 32:8 32:43.

We now know who the "US" that created humans is as well - or at least alot better idea...

So The Encyclopedia Britannica now tells us that the God of Abraham was "El" - looks like modern scholarship got one right !

but lets finish the Story

But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

So here we have YHWH conquring the other Gods .. and inheriting their portion of the nations of the Earth .. remember in Deut 32 - The most High (El - Elyon) alots only Israel to YHWH .. and the 70 or so other Gods get the other nations

Now we see how YHWH got all the nations .. El however is still in the background .. not part of the "Son's of God" .. as YHWH is..

Over time the attributes of the Most High were all fused into El-YHWH now using the word El to mean Lord and YHWH became El.

Then . YHWH had a son of his own ... The Son of God -- who became the High God .. has a Son .. who then become that High God.

Seems like one of them History repeating itself type things ..

 

[Truther]

What qualifies Jesus as God is the fact that he was the Father before the beginning of time (Luke 1:35).



To say that the Holy Spirit "fertilized" the egg in Mary's womb is to reduce the Holy Spirit to the level of a sperm.

But He was indeed the "male side" of the zygote that eventually grew up to become the Son of God.

If Jesus was the Father, then he fathered himself, which means the son impregnated the mother, which means we see the Nimrod/Semeramis story with Christian clothes on.
Now you see why the RCC is so closely married to the incarnation idea.

 

[Truther]

To me these are trivial distinctions ... what difference does it make whether or not the word became flesh .. or the word resided in the flesh.

The purpose of the "Logos" either way - was to deliver Gods Word directly to humanity. Your mission - to accept this word - does not change regardless of whether it is one or the other.

Becoming something implies one was something already, then changed into something.

Being made however, means created from scratch.

The word was MADE flesh(KJV), not became(modern versions) flesh.

 

[ChristisGod]

I repeat: I have never claimed Jesus is the Father. Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God of the Bible. They are distinct!

Its his/her go to card falsely accusing trinitarians of saying that Jesus is the Father when Trinitarians deny He is the Father and is the Son. This just proves he/she has no clue regarding The Trinity, modalism and unitarianism.

This is getting really old now so I'm ignoring any posts where he/she plays that game and especially when he/she refuses to answer the direct question:

is Jesus God/Deity ? yes or no

that speaks volumes.

As no one can say Jesus is LORD(YHWH) except by the Spirit.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Heyzeus]

I repeat: I have never claimed Jesus is the Father. Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God of the Bible. They are distinct!

OK ... That is a good start ..

Trinity doctrine states that three personages (emanations/incarnations from the Godhead) of the Trinity are distinct.
I agree that this is how scripture depicts Father, Son and Spirit.

So we have arrived on the same page

 

[Truther]

Jesus didn't say He wasn't good. You did!

He said only God was good, which he excluded himself as.....

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

 

[kcnalp]

OK ... That is a good start ..

Trinity doctrine states that three personages (emanations/incarnations from the Godhead) of the Trinity are distinct.
I agree that this is how scripture depicts Father, Son and Spirit.

So we have arrived on the same page

The Three make up the ONE True God of the Bible.

 

[Truther]

And Jesus is God! So He ALWAYS was good. lol
John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

Was Jesus good when he began as a sperm cell and was mating with Mary's egg?

Or, when was he officially good?

 

[ChristisGod]

He said only God was good, which he excluded himself as.....

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Only God is Good !

 

[Truther]

Yes!

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The verse speaks of the lamb in heaven, known personally to his God, that died before the world began.

God knew him before he was conceived, just like God knew Jeremiah.

God is smart.

 

[justbyfaith]

If Jesus was the Father, then he fathered himself, which means the son impregnated the mother, which means we see the Nimrod/Semeramis story with Christian clothes on.
Now you see why the RCC is so closely married to the incarnation idea.

Our definition of the Son is wrapped up in the hypostatic union. Jesus is "the Son" in that He is come in the flesh.

So no, the Son did not impregnate His mother.

The Spirit of the Father (and the Son) became one with the egg in the womb of Mary to produce a zygote that would grow up to be both God and Man.

 

[kcnalp]

He said only God was good, which he excluded himself as.....

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

He did not exclude Himself! That is a lie of Satan!