"All things are lawful..."

[Phoneman777]

No! A believer does not have license to sin- that is ridiculous.

The OSAS License to Sins allows the "believer" to escape the same punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the Unlicensed sinner will be punished.

but a believer will sin, because though saved they still live in a body of sin and death. that does not excuse it, condone it, encourage it or just say Oh well! It means that His sins are already forgiven- even the ones they haven't committed!

You, like Behold, grant to the Presumptuous Sinner promises reserved only for the Just Man - why? Proverbs 28:13 KJV is clear that "...whoso confesseth AND FORSAKETH them (sin) shall have mercy." Does the Presumptuous Man forsake his sin or impenitently indulge it? Sadly, the answer is obvious to all except the OSAS crowd.

that is because you do not understand salvation. You have a type of works mentality!

Works neither redeem or condemn us: they are merely the outward evidence of our inward choice to accept/abide in Jesus or reject Him. I defy anyone to deny this after reading 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, 1 John 5:2-3 KJV, Revelation 22:11-14 KJV.

sin is not the issue whether someone goes to the lake of fire or not. As Jesus said- it depends on whether one believes on Jesus or not!

Amen! Now, stay with me...what is the outward evidence of our inward choice to believe or disbelieve?

Jesus paid for the sins of the world! so sin no longer sends a person to hell. Jesus paid the tab so to speak. One goes to hell because they reject Jesus' death and physical resurrection as the full and only satisfactory offering for their sin. they therefore are condemned and must pay the tab themseleves.

Agreed! 100%! Now...(cue Jeopardy theme) What...is...the...outward...evidence...of...our...inward...choice...to...accept...or...reject...Jesus?

 

[WalkInLight]

Where? I know we would all be in teh smoking section of eternity !!!!

I know this feeling. Emotion and acceptance are difficult things. "I have tried so hard to be good and am still rejected, I give up"

This is a classic I am terrible but I will be something I am not to try and get what I think I want.
How long does it take for someone to learn they need to become something different from within, in their hearts, to rebuild that which is broken on a new foundation? To do this though means giving up on who we are and what we feel is our significance.

In Jesus we become something new, like a child learning it all again. I find it hard to think of what and how I used to be.
It is hard because I am not that person any more. In families we often end up trying for the love of our parents, getting their approval, doing things because we must. I learnt many years ago my parents could not see me and were not interested, though I deeply wanted to help and touch them, in a way they would always be distant, defended, far away.

When Jesus becomes our friend, our Lord, our Saviour, it all shifts. There is not objectivity, but there is transformation. A blind man in a city just stumbles around, but once you can see it is harder because you know many problems, but much better because you can avoid them.

I talked to some leaders about being true to themselves, finding out what was within. I did not know they might leave their wives and find other partners, with the excuse their original partners were not their true choice. It was sad because they got the first part right, they got involved with someone in a confused state, but if they had really been able to see, they would have then stated that now they knew how they could make it work.

This is the classical dilemma. Carrying our cross of sacrifice and honouring those we are committed to changes us, because the problem has always been we saw things wrongly, not our commitments were wrong. When we walk with Jesus we gain brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, because we are speaking words of the heart, emotions and reality. And this language speaks the same no matter the context.

God bless you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The OSAS License to Sins allows the "believer" to escape the same punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the Unlicensed sinner will be punished.

Except OSAS teaching does not grant a license to sin. You continue to lie abou tthis. I know of no OSAS churches or sects that teach OSAS is a license to sin in any way. Stop lying or cite a specific teaching.

You, like Behold, grant to the Presumptuous Sinner promises reserved only for the Just Man - why? Proverbs 28:13 KJV is clear that "...whoso confesseth AND FORSAKETH them (sin) shall have mercy." Does the Presumptuous Man forsake his sin or impenitently indulge it? Sadly, the answer is obvious to all except the OSAS crowd.

And you forget sadly that a believer is justified because of Jesus not because of good deeds! Once again that does not grant yo0ur lie that OSAS is a license to sin, but to live holy!

And you in quoting prov. forget the teaching of Jesus Himself!

Matthew 18:21-22
King James Version

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Jesus is filled with forgiveness! And you need to understand the difference between grace and mercy. I agree if we do not forsake a sin- god will allow us to experience the consequence of our sin. But we are still HIs children.

Works neither redeem or condemn us: they are merely the outward evidence of our inward choice to accept/abide in Jesus or reject Him. I defy anyone to deny this after reading 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, 1 John 5:2-3 KJV, Revelation 22:11-14 KJV.

No. works are the evidence that God abides in us! The good works are the external evidence that we are saved! Do you expect a baby christian newly saved, to do the works someone who has been walking with the Lord for 50 years? I hop enot. I expect them to mess up lots more because they are new to teh faith and need time to grow and learn.

Amen! Now, stay with me...what is the outward evidence of our inward choice to believe or disbelieve?

Well your problem is you have subtly attached works to salvation and to not do good works is to not believe thereby losing your salvation.

But the salvation given us by faith is a once for all time act! Just like being born- we can only be born once and only be born again once. But once we become children of God, we are His forever, just like we are children of our parents forever. We may be disobedient children at times, but children nonetheless.

Psalm 37:23-25
King James Version

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

Agreed! 100%! Now...(cue Jeopardy theme) What...is...the...outward...evidence...of...our...inward...choice...to...accept...or...reject...Jesus?

And I have answered! We are saved to do good works. But that does not mean sinlessness though that is our goal. That is not a license to sin, though a believer still lives in a body of sin and death.

Good works are not the outward evidence. They are the evidence of obedience to God!

Believers will stand before God at teh Bema seat, no the great white throne.

At the great white throne- it is the lost that are judged.

At the Bema seat every one who appears there is saved! They are there to have there works judged! Whether they are gold, silver, precious stones, or wood, hay, stubble. Even "apparent" good works can be wood hay and stubble that will be burned up. that is not a loss of salvation, but a loss of rewards.

Once again OSAS does not teach a license to sin, but the freedom in christ to grow in holiness and grace!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know this feeling. Emotion and acceptance are difficult things. "I have tried so hard to be good and am still rejected, I give up"

This is a classic I am terrible but I will be something I am not to try and get what I think I want.
How long does it take for someone to learn they need to become something different from within, in their hearts, to rebuild that which is broken on a new foundation? To do this though means giving up on who we are and what we feel is our significance.

In Jesus we become something new, like a child learning it all again. I find it hard to think of what and how I used to be.
It is hard because I am not that person any more. In families we often end up trying for the love of our parents, getting their approval, doing things because we must. I learnt many years ago my parents could not see me and were not interested, though I deeply wanted to help and touch them, in a way they would always be distant, defended, far away.

When Jesus becomes our friend, our Lord, our Saviour, it all shifts. There is not objectivity, but there is transformation. A blind man in a city just stumbles around, but once you can see it is harder because you know many problems, but much better because you can avoid them.

I talked to some leaders about being true to themselves, finding out what was within. I did not know they might leave their wives and find other partners, with the excuse their original partners were not their true choice. It was sad because they got the first part right, they got involved with someone in a confused state, but if they had really been able to see, they would have then stated that now they knew how they could make it work.

This is the classical dilemma. Carrying our cross of sacrifice and honouring those we are committed to changes us, because the problem has always been we saw things wrongly, not our commitments were wrong. When we walk with Jesus we gain brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, because we are speaking words of the heart, emotions and reality. And this language speaks the same no matter the context.

God bless you

It saddens my heart so deeply that the people who believe that if they don't "toe the line" can lose their salvation! They have been taught a totally false concept of God! God is not on the throne casting people He saved out of the kingdom, but training us to be better citizens of the kingdom!

they have a God of conditional love and limited patience which is the opposite of who God is!

 

[WalkInLight]

It saddens my heart so deeply that the people who believe that if they don't "toe the line" can lose their salvation! They have been taught a totally false concept of God! God is not on the throne casting people He saved out of the kingdom, but training us to be better citizens of the kingdom!

they have a God of conditional love and limited patience which is the opposite of who God is!

In part I agree with you in terms of tendency, but as with all parents, there are limits.
David and Bathsheba was over a period of months, a one night stand, a pregnancy, a cover up, then an assassination, and finally a confrontation. David when confronted, repented, and hoped in humbling himself the young baby would live.

Judas was warned about the path he was on, and how it would end. Peter similarly was told he would deny Jesus, the very evening after he said he would die for Jesus. The difference was Peter wanted to follow but had a wrong vision as to how, while Judas had given up and just wanted the best financial outcome he could get from a lost cause.

So there are conditions, but on such an emotional engaged way, it is not like a legalistic exchange, but rather, Do you love me?
Peter had to face this 3 times, and was hurt. Ironic that, considering what Jesus was pointing out, with life and death implications.
Paul talked of handing a believer over to satan for a rebuke, to help him return. Paul also avoid judging people, even himself.

Gods calling is to the willing. If someone responds and then walk away, Jesus does not stop them. If you say these folk will come to the truth, the problem is amen, except those who chose to stay away are among the lost. We are in a kingdom with an open door, because that is always the nature of love. Some find the idea there is possible rejection miss-understand. There is no rejection from those who desire to follow.

God bless you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In part I agree with you in terms of tendency, but as with all parents, there are limits.
David and Bathsheba was over a period of months, a one night stand, a pregnancy, a cover up, then an assassination, and finally a confrontation. David when confronted, repented, and hoped in humbling himself the young baby would live.

Judas was warned about the path he was on, and how it would end. Peter similarly was told he would deny Jesus, the very evening after he said he would die for Jesus. The difference was Peter wanted to follow but had a wrong vision as to how, while Judas had given up and just wanted the best financial outcome he could get from a lost cause.

So there are conditions, but on such an emotional engaged way, it is not like a legalistic exchange, but rather, Do you love me?
Peter had to face this 3 times, and was hurt. Ironic that, considering what Jesus was pointing out, with life and death implications.
Paul talked of handing a believer over to satan for a rebuke, to help him return. Paul also avoid judging people, even himself.

Gods calling is to the willing. If someone responds and then walk away, Jesus does not stop them. If you say these folk will come to the truth, the problem is amen, except those who chose to stay away are among the lost. We are in a kingdom with an open door, because that is always the nature of love. Some find the idea there is possible rejection miss-understand. There is no rejection from those who desire to follow.

God bless you

And as it says in Philippians it is God who makes us willing!

Youand others are looking at made up examples and trying to concot an answer based on teh made up examples.

But the bible teaches sheep are sheep and goates are goats.

and it also teaches that people go back and leave because they were never a believer even if they looked it for a while . Jesus even said to teh religious crowd - He NEVER knew them, not known them once and didn't know them later-but not at any time was jesus intimate!

 

[farouk]

It saddens my heart so deeply that the people who believe that if they don't "toe the line" can lose their salvation! They have been taught a totally false concept of God! God is not on the throne casting people He saved out of the kingdom, but training us to be better citizens of the kingdom!

they have a God of conditional love and limited patience which is the opposite of who God is!

@Ronald Nolette I am reminded of Romans 8.38-39.....

 

[Carl Emerson]

There are a couple of factors left out of the discussion.

First, in the true believer, the indwelling Holy Spirit constrains us to His purpose in righteousness. (Acts 20:22)

Second the indwelling 'Spirit of the fear of the Lord' is given to seal us to righteousness so we wont fall away. (Jer 32:40)

Those truely born again have relinquished the right to be sinful to the point of condemnation.

This passage sums the situation up.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The conclusion is that those truely born again are subject to the inner Fear and Love of God and are prevented from sin to the point of falling away eternally.

All saints should rest in this assurance - the burning question is ARE YOU BORN AGAIN ???

 

[WalkInLight]

And as it says in Philippians it is God who makes us willing!

Youand others are looking at made up examples and trying to concot an answer based on teh made up examples.

But the bible teaches sheep are sheep and goates are goats.

and it also teaches that people go back and leave because they were never a believer even if they looked it for a while . Jesus even said to teh religious crowd - He NEVER knew them, not known them once and didn't know them later-but not at any time was jesus intimate!

Jesus saying "I never knew you" He is rejecting them because He never knew them. Their approach was to claim communion with the Lord through miracles, casting out demons, prophecy. This was said after a sermon on how to follow, attitudes emotionally and of the heart which determine who Jesus is, and who His people are.

I have to say my interactions with certain folk, has led me to see where Jesus is on these words. If you have met love and know its power working through your heart, there is no mistaking this apparent show of spirituality but with no reality.

Jesus with Judas passed no judgement but warned him along the way. We are called to encourage all the same, and show all love. Part of this is to keep the door open to repentance and faith along the way.

Jesus talks about good and false teachers. A simple difference is their heart attitude, gentle and upbuilding or aggressive and tearing others down. From this it appears a teacher cannot go from being false to real. This makes sense if our foundations are emotional, set in who we are and how we approach things. Unless a false teacher is remade from the heart up, it is not a matter of correction, they are truly lost. I know in myself a lot of things spoken by various folk I could never say because it is not the way of Jesus.

OSAS is only meaningful to the lost. If people want to let go of Jesus, amen, Jesus never asked them to be bound to Him because He forces them. So many believe in Jesus because it is their culture, and they are scared to find themselves, as if this will not lead them deeper into Jesus. It is like a marriage is dead if the participants hate each other because they are not free. You have to choose to be where you are to find true reality. We are so emotional the lie we are forced to do something good destroys its value.

I love the nicene creed because it summarises some real truths of God, who I love deeply. One brother had gone so far away, he thought I only said this because I was brainwashed by repetition. He was the brainwashed rebel who had spoken truths so often while in his heart denying them, the words became a lie to him emotionally. Was he lost or saved or just confused? The Lord knows. He has passed away now.

God bless you

 

[Daydreamer]

A man dreaded leaving his family to go away on business trips. Every time he did he watched porn on his laptop. He was a slave to it you could say. One day, he went to a church, where the minister preached that all your sins are forgiven, past, present and future. The man dared to believe it. A short time later, he was completely delivered form watching internet porn. I would say there's no better example of Paul's core message than that

 

[Ronald Nolette]

OSAS is only meaningful to the lost. If people want to let go of Jesus, amen, Jesus never asked them to be bound to Him because He forces them. So many believe in Jesus because it is their culture, and they are scared to find themselves, as if this will not lead them deeper into Jesus. It is like a marriage is dead if the participants hate each other because they are not free. You have to choose to be where you are to find true reality. We are so emotional the lie we are forced to do something good destroys its value.

The reality is OSAS is only meaningful to the saved! It is knowing He will NEVER leave me or NEVER forsake me, that keeps me going forward!

YOu are confusing practicing religion with a saving relationship with Jesus! One can be a very religious person and still be just as lost as the most spiteful hate filled sinner!

I love the nicene creed because it summarises some real truths of God, who I love deeply. One brother had gone so far away, he thought I only said this because I was brainwashed by repetition. He was the brainwashed rebel who had spoken truths so often while in his heart denying them, the words became a lie to him emotionally. Was he lost or saved or just confused? The Lord knows. He has passed away now.

and what is so biblical is the bible has an answer to this.

If this person died unsaved- it meant they were never among the believers :

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jesus compared them to the tares among the wheat! Teh tares look just like wheat until near harvest time and then their true character becomes visible. they may have looked like Christians, talked like Christians, and even superficially acted like Christians, but they never were Chrsitians.

there are many possibilities as to why these people hung around. The most popular in America are these two.

They had a real religious (emotional) experience and started walking without committing.
As you said, they grew up in a religion and simply practiced religion in stead of having a living relationship with their Savior.

 

[WalkInLight]

The reality is OSAS is only meaningful to the saved! It is knowing He will NEVER leave me or NEVER forsake me, that keeps me going forward!

YOu are confusing practicing religion with a saving relationship with Jesus! One can be a very religious person and still be just as lost as the most spiteful hate filled sinner!



and what is so biblical is the bible has an answer to this.

If this person died unsaved- it meant they were never among the believers :

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jesus compared them to the tares among the wheat! Teh tares look just like wheat until near harvest time and then their true character becomes visible. they may have looked like Christians, talked like Christians, and even superficially acted like Christians, but they never were Chrsitians.

there are many possibilities as to why these people hung around. The most popular in America are these two.

They had a real religious (emotional) experience and started walking without committing.
As you said, they grew up in a religion and simply practiced religion in stead of having a living relationship with their Savior.

Imagine this. The elect are locked into Jesus. They can never be lost. They are faithful and follow, their hearts pulling them round empowered by the Holy Spirit. It is not a belief or type of position they have, it is who they are. OSAS is just stating what is so has no actual value and is not scriptural. What is scriptural is the Lord encouraging His children with love and support, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

Jesus said though the enemy sows weeds we must leave them alone, because rooting them out will damage the elect.
So there are those around who do not understand but come close. The apostles were simple about their faith. They obeyed God showing their hearts were right with Him. To those caught in sin and who they are, this is a very hard statement. To them they feel cast out, rather than their sensitivity declares God is working and they are changing. OSAS becomes poisonous to these folk because the struggle and working issues through becomes pointless because in their view they can walk with Jesus in open rebellion and sin without repentance. I know this is true because such folk argued that is was the meaning of the gospel of grace, and that I was evil to suggest sin needed resolving and working through.

I know they are wrong, and because of their position which they are happy with, do not know either Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
One cannot be deaf to the pain you give another and then turn round and say you love really...it does not work like that.

God bless you

 

[Carl Emerson]

Imagine this. The elect are locked into Jesus. They can never be lost. They are faithful and follow, their hearts pulling them round empowered by the Holy Spirit. It is not a belief or type of position they have, it is who they are. OSAS is just stating what is so has no actual value and is not scriptural.

This definition shows lack of understanding and appreciation of what is being claimed.

This definition presents the OSAS position as being 'Robotic'.

When you experience the awesome presence of God to the point you are speechless for some hours as the Holy Fear of God reduces you to zero (think Isaiah 6:5) You have a God given respect for His Word - This 'Fear' of Him is given to seal your salvation (Jer 32:40)

From thence you walk in deep respect never considering a return to Egypt.

 

[marks]

A man dreaded leaving his family to go away on business trips. Every time he did he watched porn on his laptop. He was a slave to it you could say. One day, he went to a church, where the minister preached that all your sins are forgiven, past, present and future. The man dared to believe it. A short time later, he was completely delivered form watching internet porn. I would say there's no better example of Paul's core message than that

The requirement demanding good behavior provokes bad behavior in the flesh. Grace releases us from Law and it's condemnation, which removes that provocation.

Romans 7:4-6 KJV
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Much love!

 

[Daydreamer]

The requirement demanding good behavior provokes bad behavior in the flesh. Grace releases us from Law and it's condemnation, which removes that provocation.

Romans 7:4-6 KJV
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Much love!

Excellent post, that goes to the heart of Paul's core message. Here's the quandary if you like. We would all agree, a christian is called to live a holy life, we all know that. But if a new convert concentrates on the fact change must come, how are they at the same time going to avoid falling into the trap of believing good behaviour is demanded and avoid finding bad behaviour then being provoked?

 

[marks]

Absolutely

Excellent post, that goes to the heart of Paul's core message. Here's the quandary if you like. We would all agree, a christian is called to live a holy life, we all know that. But if a new convert concentrates on the fact change must come, how are they at the same time going to avoid falling into the trap of believing good behaviour is demanded and avoid finding bad behaviour then being provoked?

"Be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ."
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you both to will and to do what pleases Him."

We have the target, Paul, how he showed himself, and Jesus, how He showed, and shows Himself.
We have the means, God is working in us, changing our will, and changing our ability.
Our part is to do what we know to do, what we are able to do.
We trust that Jesus is saving us, has saved us, will save us.
We look for change in ourselves, our hearts and minds, our actions, as a demonstration that we know God.
If we think we are born again, but don't find ourselves to be any different, that would be good reason to examine ourselves, to see if we really are "in the faith".

To directly answer your question, trust in Jesus first, knowing that in Him we are not condemned. Period. And then do your level best to live the better life God is revealing inside you.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Imagine this. The elect are locked into Jesus. They can never be lost. They are faithful and follow, their hearts pulling them round empowered by the Holy Spirit. It is not a belief or type of position they have, it is who they are. OSAS is just stating what is so has no actual value and is not scriptural. What is scriptural is the Lord encouraging His children with love and support, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

Jesus said though the enemy sows weeds we must leave them alone, because rooting them out will damage the elect.
So there are those around who do not understand but come close. The apostles were simple about their faith. They obeyed God showing their hearts were right with Him. To those caught in sin and who they are, this is a very hard statement. To them they feel cast out, rather than their sensitivity declares God is working and they are changing. OSAS becomes poisonous to these folk because the struggle and working issues through becomes pointless because in their view they can walk with Jesus in open rebellion and sin without repentance. I know this is true because such folk argued that is was the meaning of the gospel of grace, and that I was evil to suggest sin needed resolving and working through.

I know they are wrong, and because of their position which they are happy with, do not know either Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
One cannot be deaf to the pain you give another and then turn round and say you love really...it does not work like that.

God bless you

Well now OSAS has moved to a semantical argument. People call all sorts of biblical truths based on how they were taught. I call OSAS you may call it eternal security and someone else may call a third thing.

As the saying goes: " A Rose by any other name still smells just a sweet."

 

[Daydreamer]

"Be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ."
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you both to will and to do what pleases Him."

We have the target, Paul, how he showed himself, and Jesus, how He showed, and shows Himself.
We have the means, God is working in us, changing our will, and changing our ability.
Our part is to do what we know to do, what we are able to do.
We trust that Jesus is saving us, has saved us, will save us.
We look for change in ourselves, our hearts and minds, our actions, as a demonstration that we know God.
If we think we are born again, but don't find ourselves to be any different, that would be good reason to examine ourselves, to see if we really are "in the faith".

To directly answer your question, trust in Jesus first, knowing that in Him we are not condemned. Period. And then do your level best to live the better life God is revealing inside you.

Much love!

The reason I asked, is because I know of Christian counsellors who spend much time with people who joined churches and ended up totally corrupted by sin. They went to seek help. Actually, one Christian counsellor in the states told me half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to churches he described as ‘’holiness’’ churches. I’m only stating what he told me.

I do have my own opinions on this, but am reluctant to get drawn into another never ending debate on the subject

 

[marks]

The reason I asked, is because I know of Christian counsellors who spend much time with people who joined churches and ended up totally corrupted by sin. They went to seek help. Actually, one Christian counsellor in the states told me half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to churches he described as ‘’holiness’’ churches. I’m only stating what he told me.

I do have my own opinions on this, but am reluctant to get drawn into another never ending debate on the subject

We can go deep if you like, trying to ignore those who would distract us, while including those who would join us.

I've heard numbers like 85% of men who identify as Christian have problems abstaining from pornography, and that was years ago. Given what's happening in the world today, and the influences people are growing up in, I expect there is a very high incidence of sex addiction, to go along with so many other addictions and compulsions and obsessions. I think all of these things describe the corruption of our flesh, how the brain is broken, malformed, how our thoughts and feelings and perceptions are skewwed towards darkness.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this.

If we are in Christ we have the power to be free from our sin.
Whether we will be free from our sin depends on if we truly want to be free from our sin.
The process of coming to experience freedom from our sin is called "the renewing of the mind", as we are trained to live our new lives.
Sometimes God grants immediate freedom, sometimes we have to wait, while we continue to struggle, knowing His intent for us.
The struggle is a demonstration within ourselves that we are His. If indeed we are.
Experiencing freedom from sin is the result of a more mature faith.

There's a lot to be said on this. I'm interested in what direction you are thinking.

Much love!

 

[Daydreamer]

We can go deep if you like, trying to ignore those who would distract us, while including those who would join us.

I've heard numbers like 85% of men who identify as Christian have problems abstaining from pornography, and that was years ago. Given what's happening in the world today, and the influences people are growing up in, I expect there is a very high incidence of sex addiction, to go along with so many other addictions and compulsions and obsessions. I think all of these things describe the corruption of our flesh, how the brain is broken, malformed, how our thoughts and feelings and perceptions are skewwed towards darkness.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this.

If we are in Christ we have the power to be free from our sin.
Whether we will be free from our sin depends on if we truly want to be free from our sin.
The process of coming to experience freedom from our sin is called "the renewing of the mind", as we are trained to live our new lives.
Sometimes God grants immediate freedom, sometimes we have to wait, while we continue to struggle, knowing His intent for us.
The struggle is a demonstration within ourselves that we are His. If indeed we are.
Experiencing freedom from sin is the result of a more mature faith.

There's a lot to be said on this. I'm interested in what direction you are thinking.

Much love!

Maybe we could chat tomorrow, its late here and I have to get up early. But enjoyed chatting with you
BTW
I would agree with a lot of what you have written, but I do believe sin is spoken of in two different ways in scripture. Goodnight