"All things are lawful..."

[marks]

Maybe we could chat tomorrow, its late here and I have to get up early. But enjoyed chatting with you
BTW
I would agree with a lot of what you have written, but I do believe sin is spoken of in two different ways in scripture. Goodnight

Looking forward to it!

Much love!

 

[Daydreamer]

We can go deep if you like, trying to ignore those who would distract us, while including those who would join us.

I've heard numbers like 85% of men who identify as Christian have problems abstaining from pornography, and that was years ago. Given what's happening in the world today, and the influences people are growing up in, I expect there is a very high incidence of sex addiction, to go along with so many other addictions and compulsions and obsessions. I think all of these things describe the corruption of our flesh, how the brain is broken, malformed, how our thoughts and feelings and perceptions are skewwed towards darkness.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this.

If we are in Christ we have the power to be free from our sin.
Whether we will be free from our sin depends on if we truly want to be free from our sin.
The process of coming to experience freedom from our sin is called "the renewing of the mind", as we are trained to live our new lives.
Sometimes God grants immediate freedom, sometimes we have to wait, while we continue to struggle, knowing His intent for us.
The struggle is a demonstration within ourselves that we are His. If indeed we are.
Experiencing freedom from sin is the result of a more mature faith.

There's a lot to be said on this. I'm interested in what direction you are thinking.

Much love!

In relation to why people end up as christian counsellors informed me often happened. You correctly stated:

''The requirement demanding good behavior provokes bad behavior in the flesh''

What is the requirement in actuality? Do not commit sin/bring forth good behaviour.

Lets take the ten commandments. Would thou shalt not murder provoke a person to go out and commit the act of murder? Not likely is it, that can be controlled. How about: Thou shalt not steal?'' No,that can easily be controlled, as with the act of physical adultery, and taking the Lord's name in vain. The problem comes on the inside of man if you like. His thoughts, they are different. Supposing I said to you, ''If you think of a pink elephant God will condemn you to hell'' What's the first thing that would come into your head if you believed me? However hard you tried to avoid thoughts of the absurd creature you would never succeed. It wouldn’t be long, before you were consumed with thoughts of it. That's how the human mind works isn't it. Why would this happen? Because heaven or hell hinged on obeying such a command, it would be inflexible. Your fear of thinking about it, would simply increase your thoughts of it.

Imagine a new convert to the faith. They are told they must obey the ten commandments, otherwise they cannot be in a saved state, they will end up in hell. The convert is sincere, trusting and believes the statement they have been told. They understand what obedience to the ten commandments entails(as should everyone as the law is now in the heart and mind of believers). And remember the wording of those commands: ‘’Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error. The convert understands what obeying thou shalt not covet entails. Thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire, thou shalt not have impure thoughts, thou shalt not lust. They are convinced they must obey the ten commandments to remain saved, heaven or hell depends on it. ‘Thou shalt not lust’. Your going to get the pink elephant syndrome. Paul explained it well in Rom7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment(thou shalt not covet), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

Hence, many people end up seeking help from Christian counsellors.

 

[marks]

In relation to why people end up as christian counsellors informed me often happened. You correctly stated:

''The requirement demanding good behavior provokes bad behavior in the flesh''

What is the requirement in actuality? Do not commit sin/bring forth good behaviour.

Lets take the ten commandments. Would thou shalt not murder provoke a person to go out and commit the act of murder? Not likely is it, that can be controlled. How about: Thou shalt not steal?'' No,that can easily be controlled, as with the act of physical adultery, and taking the Lord's name in vain. The problem comes on the inside of man if you like. His thoughts, they are different. Supposing I said to you, ''If you think of a pink elephant God will condemn you to hell'' What's the first thing that would come into your head if you believed me? However hard you tried to avoid thoughts of the absurd creature you would never succeed. It wouldn’t be long, before you were consumed with thoughts of it. That's how the human mind works isn't it. Why would this happen? Because heaven or hell hinged on obeying such a command, it would be inflexible. Your fear of thinking about it, would simply increase your thoughts of it.

Imagine a new convert to the faith. They are told they must obey the ten commandments, otherwise they cannot be in a saved state, they will end up in hell. The convert is sincere, trusting and believes the statement they have been told. They understand what obedience to the ten commandments entails(as should everyone as the law is now in the heart and mind of believers). And remember the wording of those commands: ‘’Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error. The convert understands what obeying thou shalt not covet entails. Thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire, thou shalt not have impure thoughts, thou shalt not lust. They are convinced they must obey the ten commandments to remain saved, heaven or hell depends on it. ‘Thou shalt not lust’. Your going to get the pink elephant syndrome. Paul explained it well in Rom7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment(thou shalt not covet), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

Hence, many people end up seeking help from Christian counsellors.

I think of this as like returning the battle to be fought by yourself, as though you must keep yourself acceptible to keep being saved. It's fighting the wrong fight.

Much love!

 

[WalkInLight]

Well now OSAS has moved to a semantical argument. People call all sorts of biblical truths based on how they were taught. I call OSAS you may call it eternal security and someone else may call a third thing.

As the saying goes: " A Rose by any other name still smells just a sweet."

The problem here is simple. Jesus warned about the problem of faith and then abuse or laziness.
The pharisees called themselves the descendants of Israel, special, chosen.
The problem was they rejected Jesus and so were not of the Lord.

If any doctrine, no matter how based in scripture causes people to reject following Jesus and walking in His ways, that emphasis is heretical.
It is no surprise to me that those who wish to emphasis God ignores who they are, and just forgives is appealing. It plays to a lack of self worth and recognising the important work God does in the believers life. In a christian community justifying sin is poison. And those who defend sinful behaviour do not know Jesus.

Trust, love, patience, endurance, faithfulness are the bedrock of our walk and the fruit of the Spirit.
Our emotional motivations and backgrounds are complex, but the bedrock of life is staying true to love and Jesus's words and way.
Our impulses are often linked to our self worth, frustrations, hurts, deep pain and anguish.
It takes courage to see the truth of our inner contradictions, and to start to see the truth.

I know three individuals who over threw their long marriages for other women, not seeing the delusion and lack of reality in the love they had for their wives and the deception of a better relationship with someone else. One fellow had 3 successive marriages and failures, and when I knew him was on his 4th affair. He did not recognise he had a personality flaw, and was in this cycle of self and other peoples destruction.

The point of carrying our cross, is the pain of discipline and walking through love, is it brings reality in where there is self delusion, light where there is darkness, love and security where there is just emotional highs in the moment without consideration of life long pain and harm.
OSAS preaches none of this walk matters and is preached by those who have never found victory or the path of resolution.

God bless you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If any doctrine, no matter how based in scripture causes people to reject following Jesus and walking in His ways, that emphasis is heretical.
It is no surprise to me that those who wish to emphasis God ignores who they are, and just forgives is appealing. It plays to a lack of self worth and recognising the important work God does in the believers life. In a christian community justifying sin is poison. And those who defend sinful behaviour do not know Jesus.

Sorry, but any doctrine based in Scripture will lead one to Jesus and cause one to desire and learn to walk in His ways.

It is the abuse of doctrine or adding to or taking away from biblical doctrine that causes one to reject Christ. David in Psalm 119 showed the greatness of Gods Word (doctrine) in causing one ot follow the Lord.

I agree that justifying sin is poison. Defending sinful behavior may be out of ignorance or trying to hide from the conviction God puts on HIs children!

Example: Aperson gets unjustifed angry and says: "Well I can't help it. they make me so mad". That is defending sinful behavior. They are still a child of God, just immature or not well taught.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Trust, love, patience, endurance, faithfulness are the bedrock of our walk and the fruit of the Spirit.
Our emotional motivations and backgrounds are complex, but the bedrock of life is staying true to love and Jesus's words and way.
Our impulses are often linked to our self worth, frustrations, hurts, deep pain and anguish.
It takes courage to see the truth of our inner contradictions, and to start to see the truth.

Yes it does and it also takes patience and grant forgiveness to ourselves for learning how to walk a deeper life in Christ. Not justifying sin, but forgiving us as God has forgiven us--completely! We belong to Christ and we do not even have the right to judge ourselves!

And staying true also involves acknowledging our sin when we stray- not justifying it, or covering it up or defending it but practicing 1 John 1:9

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The point of carrying our cross, is the pain of discipline and walking through love, is it brings reality in where there is self delusion, light where there is darkness, love and security where there is just emotional highs in the moment without consideration of life long pain and harm.
OSAS preaches none of this walk matters and is preached by those who have never found victory or the path of resolution.

The point of carrying our cross is to recognize we are dead and Christ is alive in me- IOW learning how to get ourselves out of the way to let Jesus live through us!

And you are a liar when you falsely accuse OSAS preachers saying this doesn't matter. Maybe to some, but all the preachers and authors who hold to OSAS that I know (and it is large) preach holy living with a passion. Holiness is a natural result of the new birth!

Matthew 11:28-30
King James Version

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


If there is pain and hardship in the walk of Jesus- it is because we are resisting HIm and are seeking self instead of Him. When our focus is on Him- nothing seems painful! Love does that. If you have ever been in love with a person you know that! When we are wooing them and courting them and seeking them, there is no sacrifice that is a sacrifice for them.

 

[WalkInLight]

Sorry, but any doctrine based in Scripture will lead one to Jesus and cause one to desire and learn to walk in His ways.

It is the abuse of doctrine or adding to or taking away from biblical doctrine that causes one to reject Christ. David in Psalm 119 showed the greatness of Gods Word (doctrine) in causing one ot follow the Lord.

I agree that justifying sin is poison. Defending sinful behavior may be out of ignorance or trying to hide from the conviction God puts on HIs children!

Example: Aperson gets unjustifed angry and says: "Well I can't help it. they make me so mad". That is defending sinful behavior. They are still a child of God, just immature or not well taught.

Amen. My friend not all people who say they are one thing actually own it.
I believe in security in Jesus, but not in free gift sinners made saints while remaining sinners.
Jesus said something profound about the teachers of the law. They could not understand Him because they did not love God.
I know what He means now. I fell in love with my wife, as I had never loved anyone before. Others can share only if they themselves have gone through this experience, else it is just a description. I am no judge, but when I share about seeing need and weeping to meet it, if someone responds with a hard heart, it is plain they do not know what I mean, and we have not connected.

Jesus wept for Lazarus because He loved him, and Mary and Martha, and empathised with their grief. This was even though He knew He would raise Lazarus. We are called to be like Jesus, with this level of empathy.

On the other side I have seen someone who was told they did not weep enough for someones passing, as if their passing was the end of the world. They lived a co-dependant relationship with this individual and their passing was their own death and meaning of life. There is no empathy enough here because this is unhealthy involvement with another.

These things a subtle, but in Christ and the cross part of our walk in the Spirit. God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

The point of carrying our cross is to recognize we are dead and Christ is alive in me- IOW learning how to get ourselves out of the way to let Jesus live through us!

And you are a liar when you falsely accuse OSAS preachers saying this doesn't matter. Maybe to some, but all the preachers and authors who hold to OSAS that I know (and it is large) preach holy living with a passion. Holiness is a natural result of the new birth!

Matthew 11:28-30
King James Version

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


If there is pain and hardship in the walk of Jesus- it is because we are resisting HIm and are seeking self instead of Him. When our focus is on Him- nothing seems painful! Love does that. If you have ever been in love with a person you know that! When we are wooing them and courting them and seeking them, there is no sacrifice that is a sacrifice for them.

I wonder if the problem is a label. I have seen in many discussions people using the same words to actually mean different things and emphasis.
When I share some people who hold to the words OSAS also support it is impossible to resolve sin, or we are changed from glory unto glory, I am just sharing what has happened to me. So this is the problem with generalisations, when I am just being specific.

I one real sense if you meet Jesus, these things fall away in importance.
One very assertive person intended me to buckle under their accusations. I simply asked if the loved me.
They refused to answer, because for them loving was not part of their gospel, and I was certainly not going to be given such a thing.
I truly loved them, because that is what I was sharing. Their combative attitude spoke to me harm was their intent.

After a year, they admitted they felt hurt by my observations of their style of taking people down.
I apologised in regard to hurt I may have caused. I pray they understood better Jesus and His way.

When I was called satanic and an enemy of Jesus for being like this, it is hard not to conclude their hearts are dark and lost, because at the simplest level loving another is not an evil or sinful act. If you end up condemning loving people, one is not in the Lord.

God bless you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen. My friend not all people who say they are one thing actually own it.
I believe in security in Jesus, but not in free gift sinners made saints while remaining sinners.
Jesus said something profound about the teachers of the law. They could not understand Him because they did not love God.
I know what He means now. I fell in love with my wife, as I had never loved anyone before. Others can share only if they themselves have gone through this experience, else it is just a description. I am no judge, but when I share about seeing need and weeping to meet it, if someone responds with a hard heart, it is plain they do not know what I mean, and we have not connected.

Jesus wept for Lazarus because He loved him, and Mary and Martha, and empathised with their grief. This was even though He knew He would raise Lazarus. We are called to be like Jesus, with this level of empathy.

On the other side I have seen someone who was told they did not weep enough for someones passing, as if their passing was the end of the world. They lived a co-dependant relationship with this individual and their passing was their own death and meaning of life. There is no empathy enough here because this is unhealthy involvement with another.

These things a subtle, but in Christ and the cross part of our walk in the Spirit. God bless you

I fully believe that every one who is born again begins a brand new life. There may be many areas where they walk in unrepentant sin, merely because they are still babes and growing and learning! Even today, mature saints live in unrepentant sin, but these sins are rooted deep in attitude . Things at teh core of our being that take time to get to.

I also fully believe that if one is born again, they may resisit repenting of their "favorite sins" but they will come to acknowledge them and turn from them. I just know God is patinet and He knows His children and how best to deal with each of us as individuals. That is not to justify sin, or use grace as a license, but just the reality of being a believer and growing in grace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I wonder if the problem is a label. I have seen in many discussions people using the same words to actually mean different things and emphasis.
When I share some people who hold to the words OSAS also support it is impossible to resolve sin, or we are changed from glory unto glory, I am just sharing what has happened to me. So this is the problem with generalisations, when I am just being specific.

I one real sense if you meet Jesus, these things fall away in importance.
One very assertive person intended me to buckle under their accusations. I simply asked if the loved me.
They refused to answer, because for them loving was not part of their gospel, and I was certainly not going to be given such a thing.
I truly loved them, because that is what I was sharing. Their combative attitude spoke to me harm was their intent.

After a year, they admitted they felt hurt by my observations of their style of taking people down.
I apologised in regard to hurt I may have caused. I pray they understood better Jesus and His way.

When I was called satanic and an enemy of Jesus for being like this, it is hard not to conclude their hearts are dark and lost, because at the simplest level loving another is not an evil or sinful act. If you end up condemning loving people, one is not in the Lord.

God bless you

Many believers are under bondage to terrible teaching. They got saved, sealed and hid in christ, but got hooked up in bad churches and now labor under the strain of bad doctrine and conviction of the Holy Spirit without knowing full well why they have no peace!

also many wolves in sheeps clothing!

I learned long time ago- Love em all and let God sort them out!

 

[WalkInLight]

I fully believe that every one who is born again begins a brand new life. There may be many areas where they walk in unrepentant sin, merely because they are still babes and growing and learning! Even today, mature saints live in unrepentant sin, but these sins are rooted deep in attitude . Things at teh core of our being that take time to get to.

I also fully believe that if one is born again, they may resisit repenting of their "favorite sins" but they will come to acknowledge them and turn from them. I just know God is patinet and He knows His children and how best to deal with each of us as individuals. That is not to justify sin, or use grace as a license, but just the reality of being a believer and growing in grace.

We basically agree, I know. This is what made me wonder, a few basic sentences from some was like a fire they had to run from.
I grew up very emotionally repressed, to survive. I am a very open sharing person, who just likes things to be as is obvious and fairly clear. Jesus spoke like this, and I followed Him, not a denomination or group.

I was inquisitive about muslim countries and the insanity expressed on youtube video and started discussions with muslims about love, family, care and how these folk could justify what looked like abuse as something to approve of. After being a light there, I felt I should go on christian forums, to see how the believers were fairing. So what I have learnt is you only understand Jesus when your heart is changed, when repentance and love break free, when simple clarity of being straight is obvious.

I used to think dedicated believers could transform everything, by just being open. I now see, unless Jesus comes in to an open door, nothing makes sense or will work. Yes we need to learn how to trust, how to care, how to be supported, but it is very emotional and fundamental. The same folk who condemned me have been conspiracy junkies, anti-vaccers, ready for a theocracy etc. their way of course. Now if I can be worse than a murderer, if they were in charge things would go badly wrong.

Discipleship is a long slow road, especially if walked alone, which is quite ironically wrong. But how real are many in western society, and how deeply are any friendships? I have two good friends in certain regards, who were happy to cut me out for no apparent reason, and when asked, simply could not respond. How are friends like this friends? I offered support and help, interest etc. yet it was not good enough. Is faith so personal it stops outside the believer, and its all just show? If folk are this difficult with a friend they know, imagine how they are with the Lord who they claim to follow?

On a positive note, our house group has grown, with openness and support over really difficult issues, not solving them, but sharing and praying and just being there. Some think the Lord should just heal, not that everything is a journey, and we need to listen, share and support along the way in the Lords will,

God bless you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Discipleship is a long slow road, especially if walked alone, which is quite ironically wrong. But how real are many in western society, and how deeply are any friendships? I have two good friends in certain regards, who were happy to cut me out for no apparent reason, and when asked, simply could not respond. How are friends like this friends? I offered support and help, interest etc. yet it was not good enough. Is faith so personal it stops outside the believer, and its all just show? If folk are this difficult with a friend they know, imagine how they are with the Lord who they claim to follow?

On a positive note, our house group has grown, with openness and support over really difficult issues, not solving them, but sharing and praying and just being there. Some think the Lord should just heal, not that everything is a journey, and we need to listen, share and support along the way in the Lords will,

I am sorry, you have been betrayed by people you called good friends. Western Society is fallen like all other societies. Different sins that are in focus, but all the world lies in the lap of the evil one.

If a person has one true friend in every age of their life- they are truly blessed.

There are many believers who are walking in discipleship! In my church most people really love and respect me for the teacher I am and the honesty I try to live in. som e people hate me as well, but I cannot carry their burden or them.

House groups are wonderful. but I hope you have a pastor teacher you submit to! These are gifts from God to mature us! Without a pastor teacher, we are subjected to succumbing to very grave error.

There are thousands of sincere Pastors who love the Lord, imperfect as they are.