Always Spirit-Filled Or Unsaved?

[marks]

That's the problem of trying to make a universal truth out of one verse...when so many other verses go against that. All this means is that the people Paul is speaking to either have walked in the Spirit or are walking in the Spirit. But this doesn't mean that someone who reads about that in his epistle to the Romans has the Spirit or is walking in the Spirit.Paul exhorts other churches towards a more spiritual walk.
The tiring thing here is the selectivity and wishful thinking that one can derive by ignoring the whole counsel of God in favour of an easy to accept verse...since it's easy. people who do that...are known...not for honest exegesis...but a wishful thinking.

So then look for other verses that speak of being IN the Spirit or walking in the Spirit....and compare. Then you wouldn't be championing one interpretation over another. And people like me wouldn't have to continually correct such a basic blunder ALL the time.

That's the problem of trying to make a universal truth out of one verse...when so many other verses go against that.

I suggest that not being able to reconcile passages shows a lack of understanding of the true meanings of those passages. There is nothing in Scripture which goes against these plainly stated words, rather, the Bible agrees with itself, and, again, in plainly stated words.

These are no different.

You say . . . "make a universal truth out of one verse", and I say, "Accect the truth of God's Word as written." Why should we not do this? Why should we not accept it as true?

You say . . . other verses go against that. Which ones? Let's look at them together.

Let's look at this verse together:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

God tells us a conditional truth, that you are not in the flesh, instead, you are in the spirit IF - here's the condition - the Spirit of God dwell in you.

And He tells us something else also, that if you do not actually have the Spirit of Christ in you, then you are none of His.

Some will say, See, it says, the Spirit of God here, and the Spirit of Christ there, two different Spirits. I don't think that does justice to the Word. Christ is God.

IF the Spirit of God dwell in you. The question then is, Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If He does . . . then you are in fact, not according to me, according to this place in the Bible, in the Spirit.

Do you think this verse actually is saying something different? Can you show that difference from the text? I am always interested in understanding other points of view.

All this means is that the people Paul is speaking to either have walked in the Spirit or are walking in the Spirit.

Look again at what God is teaching here:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you

He is not speaking of "walking in the Spirit" as he does in other places. So we have being "in the Spirit" as he says here, which is conditioned by the Spirit of God being in you. But yes, as you've observed, not all who have the Spirit in them walk in that same Spirit, and instead walking according to the flesh.

And that is why He tells us,

Galatians 5:25 "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

So you can see how God still says to those who live in the Spirit, to also walk in the Spirit. Calling the two one makes for confusion.

But this doesn't mean that someone who reads about that in his epistle to the Romans has the Spirit or is walking in the Spirit.Paul exhorts other churches towards a more spiritual walk.

Yes, I agree with you, that simply being a reader of the Book of Romans, or any book of the Bible, for that matter, that does not mean you are either in the Spirit, or walking in the Spirit, very true! There are the unsaved, and the immature.

Remember . . . Paul likewise exhorts the Christians in Rome towards a more spiritual walk.

In chapter 12 God pleads with them - and us - to offer our bodies living sacrifices, holy, and acceptible. He tells them - and us - to not be conformed (to the same schematic) but be transformed (metamorph) by the renewing of your mind.

We think one way as we learned from our parents, from our own mind, the mind of the flesh, and we need to renew our minds to be conformed to the mind of Christ.

The tiring thing here is the selectivity and wishful thinking that one can derive by ignoring the whole counsel of God in favour of an easy to accept verse...since it's easy. people who do that...are known...not for honest exegesis...but a wishful thinking.

I don't know about all that, I make it a point to find the harmony across all the Scriptures. I do see those who engage in wishful thinking, and those who have seemingly forsaken an honest exegesis and understanding in favor of their own brand.

So then look for other verses that speak of being IN the Spirit or walking in the Spirit....and compare.

Exactly!

:)

Then you wouldn't be championing one interpretation over another. And people like me wouldn't have to continually correct such a basic blunder ALL the time.

Perhaps you misunderstand my intent. It is to bring understanding of God's Word through examining together God's Word, the Bible.

I'm not sure how you mean "people like me", that is, 'people like you', but I invite you to direct your energies towards looking at Scripture rather than just going on about others, and how they all have it all so wrong! I think it would make for a more productive, and more pleasant forum experience, don't you think?

 

[Enow]

I believe that we can be filled afresh for particular works, such as in Acts, when the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, and testified with boldness.

About that incident, do consider this; do we need an infilling every time in order to speak the word in boldness from the Holy Spirit? Imagine believers waiting for some outward manifestation of being infilled by the Holy Spirit to know they can now speak in boldness for the Lord Jesus.

So let us reread that event.

Acts 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Salvation interrupted. The Jews believed, but Peter & John got taken away from their company. We read on when they got released, they went to their own company ( hence the potential converts not saved yet ) and that those potential converts heard what had happened to Peter & John and so it was that company of potential believers waiting to be saved that prayed that prayer that they could speak in the same boldness of speech as Peter & John had done.

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.

So now note the beginning of their prayer of this company of potential believers after hearing what had happened to Peter & John.

24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Now the result of their prayer request, which I point out did not include Peter & John for they were already Spirit-filled. This was the company of potential believers' request.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

How do we know they were a company of potential new believers? By how they changed their lives after that event in selling everything and sharing everything with that company of new believers laying it at the apostles' feet which they were not doing that before because they were not a community of believers, but now they were.

So I took that Jewish company of potential believers were the ones that had gotten saved when they had made that prayer request to be able to speak in the same boldness of speech as Peter & John.

So that means every Spirit-filled believer can speak in boldness like Peter & John. They just have to believe that as also a promise from Jesus Christ at their salvation.

 

[marks]

do we need an infilling every time in order to speak the word in boldness from the Holy Spirit?

2 Peter
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

No we do not.

Much love!

 

[Enow]

Forgive my wording. I know Peter had the Spirit that is sealed in us at our being born anew through Christ. My point is more about following the leading of the Spirit, walking in, and being led by the Spirit, growing through the Spirit by keeping our eyes on Christ and living Christ life. This is the striving that I refer to. I do not believe at all that we need "more" of His Spirit as, we already have His Spirit residing in us. It is still a bit fuzzy to me when speaking of being led and walking in His Spirit as, it is hard to know what the difference is to me. Each day I ask to be sensitive to His leading and guidance...so to "be being filled" was probably not the best way to put it...

I understand. Sometime I have needed to clarify what I have posted.

But be sure to ask Jesus for that guidance. Don't ask the Holy Spirit that, because that would be dishonoring the Son since He is the only Mediator between God and man. The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from Jesus and so our guidance is from the Bridegroom.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Catholics were taught to seek the gifts of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit and they got tongues without interpretation; problem was in spite of that happening in earlier history of the Catholic Church as they taking it as a sign that they were keeping the doctrines within when Paul plainly said tongues do not serve as a signs towards the believers for anything ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ) the RCC has never been reproved by the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, there is such a thing as a Charismatic Catholic Church today and still no reproof from the Holy Spirit from all that tongues for private use.

It is better to know what we had prayed for so we can give the Father thanks in Jesus name for answers to prayers which is the will of God in Christ Jesus for us to do.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Anyway, just making sure your prayers are directed to Christ Jesus rather than asking the Holy Spirit for them which is a Catholic error in origin.

 

[Enoch111]

I've come more and more to think that this lack of understanding of justification cripples so many from actually standing in grace as a way of life.

Correct. Indeed some here literally REJECT justification by grace through faith. But Romans 8:29,30 and Ephesians 2:8-10 lay a solid foundation.

What we are seeing more and more is an abysmal ignorance of Gospel truth among Christians. There are many reasons for that, but there are no excuses.

 

[Enow]

Evidently you are confused about this. It is not an *either/or* proposition.

Come again?

To be able to testify you have been saved by Jesus Christ, you are Spirit-filled.

If you are not sure you are saved yet, then that would be denying we have been Spirit-filled. And for a believer to continue to seek a supernatural infilling of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is to deny that he is a new creature in Christ Jesus and thus hence denying himself as a new wine bottle able to keep the new wine.

 

[Enow]

Nobody is saying the Holy Spirit comes and goes. But we are the ones who come and go. We enter into the Spirit...but only as God permits. We need to be in line with His Spirit.

There can be no entering if you say He does not comes and goes.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

What you are promoting is for believers to focus on the Holy Spirit when scripture and the Holy Spirit would have you focus on the Son in learning of Him in the scripture to grow in the knowledge of Him in resting in all His promises for Him being with us always to walk us thru this valley of death.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..... 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

My former Protestant church used to say this when beginning communion service; "We come into His Presence today.." say what? Are we walking away from His Presence after communion? No. Then we must say what we really mean and not say anything that denies our faith in Jesus Christ.

So to seek after a filling of the Holy Spirit or to enter into His Presence is to deny He has been in us all along since our salvation.

 

[Enow]

Very true, we enter into the Spirit, and that only as God permits. So we need to see what God says about entering into His Holy Spirit.

One place is in Romans 8:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This part here:

ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

There is a simple statement being made here, that you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwell in you.

And then he goes on to write, that if you Don't have the Spirit of Christ, you're not His. Again, a very simple statement.

So then being in the Spirit, and the Spirit being in you, these happen together. And if you don't have the one, you don't have the other.

But these things being true, that if we have His Spirit in us, we are in truth In Christ, in the Spirit, this being true, let us now Walk in the Spirit, and not According to the flesh, not according to what we once were, but in what we are now, the spirit children of God.

We walk in faith, and in love, and in these all is fulfilled by Christ in us.

None of your verses confirms an entering into His Holy Spirit but testify that we are in the Spirit for why we will be held accountable for being carnally minded still.

So for the carnal but yet still Spirit-filled Christian, he should go before that throne of grace for help to lay aside every provision for the flesh and for help to cast down wicked imaginations and youthful lusts and think on good things.

If believers were mindful that Jesus Christ is in us always, they would be more motivated to not sow to the works of the flesh nor play with sinful thoughts in their heads but hoping in Him to help them cast them down and help us turn away from watching nor listening to anything that sows to youthful lusts. It is a daily walk where we pick up that cross daily in trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

 

[marks]

OK I'll do it. Jesus likened the spiritual life to rivers of living water flowing out of the belly. So there is a flow of eternal life in the one who is filled with the Spirit. It is a miraculous provision with outstanding effects on the people all around. When the life of God is flowing out of a person there is NO sin at all...because of the presence of God ON that person as well as in. The anointing is experienced by people around that one. Signs and wonders are a daily occurrence.

So then most definitely the OP meant something of a more dogmatic religious nature that doesn't actually require God's miraculous grace to be present.

And "saved" means to preserve. So a person whose knee is healed can be said to be have been saved...according to the bible. Sodzo...can mean a temporal healing or a deliverance from a temporal evil. In fact...it MAINLY means a temporal solution.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...is about a temporal deliverance in times of trouble.

So then this is your teaching, if you are not daily performing signs and wonders, you do not have life in Christ?

I'm interested . . . what does the Bible have to say about your idea, "the presence of God ON" the born again child of God? I can't think of anywhere, I'm wondering where you get this idea from.

 

[Enow]

This makes sense to you perhaps? But rather than trying to say something FROM your understanding...just lay out what causes you to write such an incoherent statement. THEN we can be constructive.

I find your reasoning so far off...that the radar no longer tracks... ;)

Can you apply this to your ministry or do you find yourself at odds with that as a reproof?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The difference between what you are saying; continual filling or even entering into the Holy Spirit, and what I am saying we are always Spirit-filled, which one of us can be seen as preaching another Jesus or another Holy Spirit to receive and yet not received because you insinuate it is ongoing?

 

[Enow]

That's the problem of trying to make a universal truth out of one verse...when so many other verses go against that. All this means is that the people Paul is speaking to either have walked in the Spirit or are walking in the Spirit. But this doesn't mean that someone who reads about that in his epistle to the Romans has the Spirit or is walking in the Spirit.Paul exhorts other churches towards a more spiritual walk.
The tiring thing here is the selectivity and wishful thinking that one can derive by ignoring the whole counsel of God in favour of an easy to accept verse...since it's easy. people who do that...are known...not for honest exegesis...but a wishful thinking.

So then look for other verses that speak of being IN the Spirit or walking in the Spirit....and compare. Then you wouldn't be championing one interpretation over another. And people like me wouldn't have to continually correct such a basic blunder ALL the time.

Can you list one verse of the many that you say speaks against that since scripture cannot go against scripture; somebody is not rightly dividing the word of truth here; otherwise, your point is not seen here.

 

[Enow]

All this means is that the people Paul is speaking to either have walked in the Spirit or are walking in the Spirit.

Look again at what God is teaching here:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you

He is not speaking of "walking in the Spirit" as he does in other places. So we have being "in the Spirit" as he says here, which is conditioned by the Spirit of God being in you. But yes, as you've observed, not all who have the Spirit in them walk in that same Spirit, and instead walking according to the flesh.

And that is why He tells us,

Galatians 5:25 "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

So you can see how God still says to those who live in the Spirit, to also walk in the Spirit. Calling the two one makes for confusion.

I see that as the same walking in the light in fellowship with the father & the Son. They are still there but walking in darkness is not walking with them just as walking in the flesh is not walking in the Spirit. There is no need to enter into the Spirit or enter into with the Father & the Son; but repentance with the Lord Jesus Christ's help to walk in the Spirit in the light of the fellowship with the Father & the Son as that repentance has His blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness in the same way for asking for forgiveness does.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Enow]

As you say . . . Just Anyone can write stuff on the internet. But this is a problem peculiar to Christian forums. Because anyone has the platform to conduct themself as a teacher, whether or not they actually are intended by God to be a teacher to the church.

Since we prophesy in part and know in part, we should always rely on the Lord Jesus Christ for His ministry on the internet, but as it is, iron sharpens iron when we get into the scripture as I believe He is the One that sharpens as we go along in any discussion for our edification & reproof..

 

[Enow]

Correct. Indeed some here literally REJECT justification by grace through faith. But Romans 8:29,30 and Ephesians 2:8-10 lay a solid foundation.

What we are seeing more and more is an abysmal ignorance of Gospel truth among Christians. There are many reasons for that, but there are no excuses.

I would say not being rooted in His words as His disciples and allowing the cares of this life put their reconciled relationship with the Lord on the backburner where people are just churchgoers follwing the crowd mentality may very well be the signs of the times we are in.

 

[Enow]

The forum allows for people...who have not thought through what they are trying to get across...but rather repeat an idea that has not been fully apprehended...and then try to teach that to others. This would not be permitted in any real life meeting.

But it's a free country. :)

Only because the person on the other side of the conversation is not using scripture to make his point known. So the repeat is necessary because said person is doubting the word as it is plainly written and refuses to explain it away in according to his views.

 

[marks]

None of your verses confirms an entering into His Holy Spirit

We enter into the Spirit when we are born from God a new creation, and that happens the way God says.

I realized that episkopos meant it differently, as if we go in and out of the Spirit, I was trying to use that to segue into the Scriptures themselves.

Perhaps I can give you a better picture of my understanding, which is . . .

By Adam's sin, all humanity fell victim to corruption.
By Jesus' death, all sin is removed from humanity, removing all obstacles to us returning to God.
God desires all to return to Him.
When we believe this, and receive it as truth, receiving Jesus, believing into Him, God adopts us, and births us.
We become new creations. We did not exist before, and are God's spirit children, sharing His nature, holy, and righteous.
Both old and new creatures continue to exist, though the old mind of the flesh is just dead man walking.
As the thoughts leak through from the mind of the flesh, we assert our freedom from sin by looking to Jesus in love, responding to His love for us.
For myself, this is about remembering God's presence with me, His love for me, His acceptance of me, and His power in me, all because of what Jesus Christ accomplished on my behalf.
Having returned our thoughts to God, sin simply fades away, the flesh overcome.
Temptations and trials are "provings" by which our faith is proven and refined. Contrary circumstances of all sorts come against us, and we are to respond in the Spirit, as what would to some be an opportunity or excuse to sin becomes in the child of God an opportunity to grow in God's grace.
In the same way that we trusted Jesus when we were reborn, in that same way we trust Jesus to make our lives what He wants them to be, to stand in grace.

If you have any questions on these, or if you want to look at the Scriptures concerning these things I will be happy to!

Much love!

 

[marks]

My former Protestant church used to say this when beginning communion service; "We come into His Presence today.." say what? Are we walking away from His Presence after communion? No. Then we must say what we really mean and not say anything that denies our faith in Jesus Christ.

This touches on what I have against so much of what passes for Christian music, the pop stuff they play . . . so much poor and downright wrong theology, it's like they plead, save me again, save me again, it's filling up on milk day by day.

 

[marks]

Since we prophesy in part and know in part, we should always rely on the Lord Jesus Christ for His ministry on the internet, but as it is, iron sharpens iron when we get into the scripture as I believe He is the One that sharpens as we go along in any discussion for our edification & reproof..

Amen!

Life in Christ is a constant adventure of discovery and growth and wonder, and He draws these things from all over, I never know where He's going to point my attention, what He's going to do, to lead me the next step of the journey upward!

Much love!

 

[Enow]

This touches on what I have against so much of what passes for Christian music, the pop stuff they play . . . so much poor and downright wrong theology, it's like they plead, save me again, save me again, it's filling up on milk day by day.

I can understand in regards "to save me" when we are saved.

I like this music video below reminding me how much I need Him for in living this life with Him & it does comfort me when I go through trials.

 

[marks]

I can understand in regards "to save me" when we are saved.

I like this music video below reminding me how much I need Him for in living this life with Him & it does comfort me when I go through trials.

I love this!