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Featured am I a "false teacher"

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    A brother on this forum is now trying to spread the warning that I'm a "false teacher," a "wolf." And this appears to be because I believe Paul, in Romans 3, declares, hyperbolically, that we all have a sin nature, but that under the Law Israel could still do righteousness. It was not a righteousness that attains to eternal life, but it was a form of righteousness nonetheless.

    Do you believe this belief qualifies as making me a "false teacher?" It doesn't matter to me if you believe one way or another. Does this kind of belief, having a more "positive" view of the Law, qualify as heresy to you? I need to have an answer for this guy! After all, he is spreading what I feel is disinformation about me.

    It is, I feel, an interesting subject because this involves statements from Paul that can easily be misconstrued. When he declares, in Romans 3, that all are wicked, it appears to some to say that nobody could do any good at all under the Law, that everything they did, in obedience under the Law, was actually "wickedness."

    But I believe Paul took a slice out of Israel's history, in a time when they were at their worst, to show that we all, including a godly nation, are guilty of the sin nature, and need atonement by Christ. What do you think: agree or disagree?
     
  2. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    This is yet another example of Paul's "shorthand," in which he says something and expects the reader to know the background of his statements. We, late in history, really have to dig and study to understand Paul, since we are so removed from him today. But he's worth the time and effort, obviously, since he was the great Apostle to the Gentiles.

    Paul was, in Romans 3, speaking to Gentiles, who had to know they were guilty of sin and needed Christ as an atonement for their sin. Paul's background was in Judaism, and he understood how phony the Jews of his day were propping themselves up under the Law, while hiding sins beneath that false religious exterior. Their righteousness was as "filthy rags" (Isa 64).

    What Paul was saying was that if the Jewish People, who were supposed to be made holy under the Law--the "Chosen Nation," were guilty of such atrocious sins, at a time when virtually every man was wicked, then how can anybody in the world claim to be sinless? We all have a sin nature, capable of dropping to great depths of wickedness, and therefore, need to remain covered by the blood of Jesus' atonement.

    Rom 3.9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”
    13 “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”
    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
    14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

    Unless we are to get lost in a hopeless contradiction, we must here understand Paul's "shorthand." When he says we cannot be "declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the Law," he is not saying that nobody under the Law was ever righteous at all!

    Rather, Paul was saying that we cannot be justified for the purpose of receiving eternal life, which has to be understood in the broader context of Paul's arguments. After all, he is speaking of the need of atonement for all peoples, including Israel, arguing for the need for Christ's final atonement. Sacrifices under the Law did not adequately cover sins for the purpose of receiving eternal life. Any sin stood in the way of this inheritance, just like the original sin in the Garden of Eden.

    Sacrifices under the Law could not permanently cover sin because those sacrifices were themselves made by and mediated through people with the sinful condition. They needed a remedy by a perfect Christ. That argument is left for elsewhere, but is implicit in the argument. All are sinners, and therefore all need an atonement. The atonement of the Law was not enough, and so the perfect Christ was needed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Yes.
    Not really.

    On an issue like this it would be months (if not years) before your "answers" would ever settle anything with him, whoever he is.

    Let him ramble.
     
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  4. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Hidden In Him, who cares what other think of us.
    The people who tell us that we are wrong obviously are very confident they 'they' are "right". Pride.
    I know some on here think that I hold doctrine myself which is not sound...I honestly don't care what they think.

    This forum is a broad forum and we have SDA's , JW's, LDS's and many others ...we have odd balls of which I am probably one! :D

    You are free to post what you believe...and the person, whoever he is, can either agree with you or not agree with you.... I'm on here a few times every day , and I haven't noticed anyone spreading anything bad about what you teach. But then again, I'm not 'in' ever thread.

    Don't sweat it :)
     
  5. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    What nation do you think is righteous ? ( "G"odly, not "g"odly with a worldly and false god )
     
  6. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    We are living like they did in Athens , if that good that is, where every religion can and does set up its own idols,
    and eventually
    as Jesus Says, we get persecuted and flee somewhere else.
     
  7. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, Randy are you claiming to be a teacher, or actually functioning as a teacher in your local ekklesia and other congregations that esteem you as such?

    The accountability of such teachers is not to be taken lightly.

    Jas 3:1-2 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (2) For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

    It is one thing to be in error due to some personal consideration of Scripture but it is another thing to teach that error as if it is the only meaning that can apply.

    Secondly Randy, with reference to the righteousness that is of the Law the problem of attaching merit to it is at the heart of the Epistle to the Galatians. Enough said.

    Gal 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (2) This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
     
  8. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    From my own personal experience, a false teacher is one that has not had an anointing from Jesus with the teaching ministry as in Ephesians 4:11. I never had any desire to be a teacher but when given the anointing for it, attested to by four different men in prophecy in four different meetings in four different places at four different times, I was well and truly conscripted. Since that event, the scriptures have come alive in a new and different way and has opened an entirely new vista to me that has enabled me to bypass denominational dictates and learn what the scripture says.
     
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  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    So you believe a self-declaration is the acid test of a true teacher, and not objectively-recognized teaching itself? That's an interesting approach, but not exactly Scriptural, in my view.

    I do agree that ultimately, it is God's calling and anointing that determines who has a teaching gift and who is being led by the Holy Spirit. But I also believe that the apostles called for the Church to test those with a teaching gift to determine if they had gotten off the path with what they taught.

    For example, the Apostle John was very specific about the need to recognize the reality of Christ as a man, along with the reality of his pure human character. The fruit of the Spirit are therefore important to note in what a person teaches and how he lives.

    Paul also made it clear that some legitimate former men of God had turned aside and had begun to teach other teachings. They could've already been determined to be anointed teachers, and then begun to teach things contrary to sound teaching. After all, false teachers are normally people with the gift of teaching who have turned aside from the way.

    So for me, your standard falls short of that which a teacher is called to do in exposing false teaching. It is true in part, but not the whole truth. The word of God is a means of determining whether someone gets out of line, which a genuine gifted teacher can do. In fact, biblically, none of us are perfect, no matter what our gift. John and Paul were not perfect either.

    It is my belief that one labeled as "fallen from orthodoxy" is not just one who has flaws, but much more, one who teaches dangerous things that can subvert the faith and practice of other Christians and lead men astray into ungodliness. Peter called for the Church to be aware of false teachers who taught "dangerous heresies." And the book of Revelation called on the churches to be aware of false teaching within the churches.

    A person may claim to have a teaching gift, and may have had an anointing at one time, and now claims to be anointed by a counterfeit spirit. I have personally seen counterfeit gifts of teaching in operation, with power and signs of prophetic mantles. These are called "cults." And true teachers should be equipped to expose them.

    My complaint here has to do with those maligning legitimate teachers for differences below the standard of orthodoxy out of spite, and not by the true guidance of the Holy Spirit, and not by biblical standards. We must not determine what is doctrinally-orthodox by purely subjective claims that "someone verified that I was an anointed teacher."

    Any anointed teacher may get off course. And that's how Christian cults got started.

    1 Tim 1.3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer.

    2 Pet 3.1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
     
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  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I am not claiming to be a functioning teacher in the church at all, except that the pastor has expressed his gratitude for my contributions in two of his weekly Bible Studies--these have stopped, due to the coronavirus. My brother, a former pastor, also has expressed my value to him in our weekly exchanges on biblical subjects, which also have stopped for the time being.

    No, I am not a professional teacher. But I've long operated in the spirit of a teacher, having shared in various formats on-line and other formats for almost 50 years. My question does not concern, however, my personal experiences, but rather, the standard by which someone may be determined to be a heretic, or false teacher? Professional teaching has been a big part of my family of upbringing, and obviously that DNA is in me.

    This is just a warning to a teacher, with powers of persuasion, to not misuse the gift. The same would apply to the prophet, who can turn aside from what God leads him to prophesy, leading men to what he wants to establish instead. Balaam is an example of that. He knew how to be led by God. But he also knew he could use his powers of persuasion to lead men in the direction of his choice.

    In practical experience I see even genuine teachers make this mistake, and I still would not call them a heretic. For example, David Wilkerson operated, I believe, as a prophet, and still he said he felt convicted by God that Pretribulationism was true. I believe that to be a false doctrine, but I do not thereby condemn D. Wilkerson as a false prophet.

    There are a number on here who regularly say they're absolutely convinced of a particular interpretation of a passage, knowing they're wrong, and yet would not brand them, for this, as a "false teacher." For me, the level of teaching, to be a heresy, has to go beyond personal opinion, even if it is a conviction that something *must be the only truth.* If the teaching actually leads to diversion away from cardinal doctrines, such as the Deity of Christ, then it is a dangerous heresy and renders the teacher of that doctrine a heretic.

    The merit of the Law has nothing to do with what Paul is saying here. As I said in my thread about Paul's teaching, Paul spoke in "shortcut" statements, which are easily misunderstood . He was speaking of "works of the Law" that specifically were intended to achieve Salvation, including the 613 requirements under the Law of Moses. None of those requirements achieved the righteousness of salvation, although I most certainly would attest to the fact that obeying them properly under the Law, by faith, was a true form of righteousness, even if it did not achieve salvation until Christ came.

    Thank you for your thoughts. I do find the answers in this thread interesting, though a little concerning. But generally, I believe the thoughts expressed are honest convictions, and contain something of value that we can all build on.[/QUOTE]
     
  11. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Teaching the Word

    Psalm 78:1-8 My People, mark My Words, I shall tell you a meaningful story, I shall expound the riddle of things past. Things that our forefathers have told us – the wonderful acts of the Lord to His people. The Lord laid upon Jacob a solemn charge to teach his descendants, to repeat through the generations, for them to put their trust in God, to remember His great deeds for them and to keep His commandments. Not to do as their ancestors did – a disobedient and rebellious generation, their hearts not fixed firmly on the Lord.

    Jeremiah 24-26 Your ancestors did not listen to the prophets I sent. Zech 7:12

    Hosea 3:6 Want of knowledge has been the ruin of My people....

    Isaiah 28:9-11 Who is there that can be taught? Who makes sense of what he hears? They are like babes, newly weaned. So now, in another tongue, the Lord will address this people.

    Isaiah 55:1-3 Come for water and food, [the Law and the Commandments] get My instruction at no cost. Listen to Me and you will fare well, you will enjoy the best of food, hear Me and you will have life.

    Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the Lord your redeemer: I will teach you for your own wellbeing and lead you in the way you should go.

    Jeremiah 16:21 Therefore I am teaching My people once and for all, of My power and might and they will learn that My Name is the Lord.

    Psalm 25:8-9 The Lord is good and upright, therefore He teaches sinners the way they should go. He guides the humble in right conduct, teaching them His Laws.

    Psalm 27:11-12 Teach me Your way Lord, do not give me up to the greed of my enemies. Lead me by a level path, so I can escape the troubles that beset me, those liars that threaten harm.

    Psalm 32:8 I shall teach you and guide you the way you should go, I will keep you under My eye.

    Psalm 86:11 Lord teach me Your way, that I may walk in Your truth.

    Isaiah 2:2-3 In days to come the Lord’s House will be raised above the mountains and many people will say: Let us go up to the Lord’s House, that he may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem.

    Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will My people teach one another, they will all know the Lord.

    Matthew 23:10 Do not call yourself ‘Teacher’, for you have one teacher – the Messiah.

    James 3:1 My friends, not many of you should become teachers, because you may be certain that we who teach will ourselves face a severer judgement.

    2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets and now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money, they will trade on peoples credulity with sheer fabrications.

    Isaiah 51:4-8 Listen to Me, My people, My instruction will shine forth from Me and My judgement will dawn upon you. In an instant the sky will be dispersed like smoke, the earth will become tattered and torn and many people will die, but you who keep My Laws – do not fear your enemies, do not let their reviling dismay you. For My saving power is unbroken and My Deliverance will be everlasting. Ref: REB, Some verses abridged


    Only after the Day of the Lord’s wrath, will we receive true instruction. Jeremiah 3:14-18
     
  12. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    There are many who sit and quote the bible and not in agreement with God, so it means nothing, many can read the bible and 5 languages but yet dont know God. So it means nothing.
     
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  13. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Well-Known Member

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    When all they had was the Law of Moses, obedience to it was acceptable to God.

    Act 10:1-2 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
    Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

    But here's where faith gets the better of the Law...

    Galatians 3:22-24 The Purpose of the Law
    22 But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.
    23 Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
    24 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.…
    Berean Study Bible ·

    And even if one is blameless as far as the righteousness of the Law is concerned the result is worthless compared to the righteousness which is through the faith of Christ and is of God by faith.

    Php 3:6-11 Concerning zeal, persecuting the ekklesia; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. (8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; (11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
     
  14. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to Athens (figuratively like or as in the incidents in Scripture).
    As then where there were
    many teachers, few of God, few lessons in truth, many in error opposing the One True God, exposed/revealed by Scripture and by God, condemned for unbelief already today, each judged by their own words, many deceiving many, arm in arm in idolatry, corruption, sinfulness, selfishness, and serving false gods and demons.
     
  15. Adoration

    Adoration Well-Known Member

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    I have met more FALSE TEACHERS in Christian forums... than I have at any other time... It is obviously because these types of VENUES allow people from all faiths and beliefs to share... When we go to a CHURCH... we basically only get ONE point of view... and we have usually done our homework to know WHERE we want to be.

    I have never been a trusting soul... and so I have a difficult time allowing others to teach me... I have been on a journey to seek Christian Unity... and I really do not believe it exists within the church as IS right now... I think UNITY is COMING... it is being prayed about and interceded for.... I think it will BE the CHOSEN and TRUE CHURCH of believers from all the Christian denominations that exist currently. GOD Is calling HIS CHILDREN to rise up and come together as ONE. Many will NOT listen... and continue to cling onto the old.
     
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  16. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    QUOTE=
    "Adoration, post: 781221, member: 8878"]I have met more FALSE TEACHERS in Christian forums... than I have at any other time... It is obviously because these types of VENUES allow people from all faiths and beliefs to share... When we go to a CHURCH... we basically only get ONE point of view... and we have usually done our homework to know WHERE we want to be.

    I have never been a trusting soul... and so I have a difficult time allowing others to teach me... I have been on a journey to seek Christian Unity... and I really do not believe it exists within the church as IS right now... I think UNITY is COMING... it is being prayed about and interceded for.... I think it will BE the CHOSEN and TRUE CHURCH of believers from all the Christian denominations that exist currently. GOD Is calling HIS CHILDREN to rise up and come together as ONE. Many will NOT listen... and continue to cling onto the old.[
    /QUOTE
    ====================================

    I don't think you will find Christian unity in the world. First see it IN SCRIPTURE (as written), to know just what is truth.
    Then, God Willing, God will grant revelation to see true union in Jesus with all who are in Jesus. (few around us)

    Yes, "GOD IS CALLING HIS CHILDREN" , Jesus is leading Jesus' sheep (we hear HIS VOICE, and will not follow another).
    All who thus follow Jesus, who stand up for the truth anywhere, will be persecuted (painfully). The world rejects Jesus. The world rejects truth. The world embraces "its own" (false teachers, idolators, deceivers).

    As written in Scripture, there are many false teachers. Naturally they are in churches, forums, "Christian" forums (so-called), on the news, in schools, etc etc etc
    As written in Scripture, as meant in Scripture (i.e. let the Author of Scripture , the Giver of Life, Reveal the Truth)
    "all men are liars" and "whoever trusts in the flesh" is cursed by the Author of Scripture.

    As written in Scripture, as Jesus says clearly, to the Apostles and His Own Disciples (Pupils, Students),
    "If you trust in the Heavenly Father to accomplish your salvation (in this world and the next),
    Then it is already accomplished"
    "If you (speaking to the Apostles) trust yourselfs to be saved, or think you can make it so, you have already failed"
     
  17. Adoration

    Adoration Well-Known Member

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    As written in Scripture, as Jesus says clearly, to the Apostles and His Own Disciples (Pupils, Students),
    "If you trust in the Heavenly Father to accomplish your salvation (in this world and the next),
    Then it is already accomplished"
    "If you (speaking to the Apostles) trust yourselfs to be saved, or think you can make it so, you have already failed"[/QUOTE]



    This is IT!!!! RIGHT THERE.... YOU nailed it.
     
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  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The Word of God is the only meaning. People's opinions mean nothing.
     
  19. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    They are not false teachers. They are not teachers full stop.

    And one of the most dynamic verses in scripture is...I will build MY church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

    If you are not building His church, you are on shaky ground so don't be surprised when the spiritual earthquake comes you collapse.
     
  20. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Hello, Randy. I am sure it makes you feel good to malign other people and their gifting and setting out all the negatives on the subject of teaching as you see it. But, at the end of the day, what you think is irrelevant as you do not have the spirit of discernment to discern the genuineness of people who say what they say.

    What you have told me is that my gift of teaching attested to by men of worth is rubbish because it does not have your imprimatur on it. It is clear that you have a beef about the subject because you missed what I said that was important and that was I had no desire to be a teacher but God had other ideas. So it was not like I was chaffing at the bit to get some recognition for the ministry of teaching.

    Now that I know I have that gift, I am not shaking in my boots in case I do something wrong. I am rejoicing in God because he has considered me worthy to serve him is this way. The fact that four men were involved in my anointing, means that God did not have any question about my appointment.

    Prophesy once, OK. Prophecy twice, better listen. Prophecy three times, there is something going on here. Prophecy four times, listen up, God is speaking to you.

    And I notice your lengthy attack on stump master.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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