Am so naughty!!
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I was once a person who had a hard time obeying the Word of God. So now I can make righteous observations when I see a person not obeying the Word. One way to know a person doesn't trust God and obey what God says, they say things like "I can't imagine my God putting someone in hell," or, "I can't see my God hardening pharaoh's heart," when the scriptures plainly say what God has said.
Catholics have a very hard time following God's Word. You show them scriptures where God says do not make an idol and bow to it, or show them scripture and explain there is only one mediator between God and man, etc.; but then you have the Catholic who can go on and on about how God doesn't really mean it like that for them, or Catholics taking objects and bowing to them isn't really what it looks like. It's excuses and excuses to not obeying God.
So straight out about the OP.... We have choices. We can either obey Jesus' teachings and remain in his and God's love, or we can live by a stubborn and rebellious heart and suffer for it.
Catholics have a very hard time following God's Word. You show them scriptures where God says do not make an idol and bow to it, or show them scripture and explain there is only one mediator between God and man, etc.; but then you have the Catholic who can go on and on about how God doesn't really mean it like that for them, or Catholics taking objects and bowing to them isn't really what it looks like. It's excuses and excuses to not obeying God.
So straight out about the OP.... We have choices. We can either obey Jesus' teachings and remain in his and God's love, or we can live by a stubborn and rebellious heart and suffer for it.
Do you?Them are all English words. Do you know the difference between English and Greek???
aiónios
Translated eternal, 66 times, eternity, 1 time, forever, 1 time.
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[font="Arial][color="#001320"]You're desperate. [/color][/font]aiónios means eternal. PERIOD. END OF STORY.
Live with it. Reform your view, or answer to God for intentionally ignoring Scripture to preach a false gospel.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
(A hint: those that God curses never see heaven)
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
If you believe we have to be "worthy" to receive Him then you've totally missed the point of the gospel.
Actually TexUs, this is Anastacia's position - I am arguing the opposite point of view.
Surely you realize it's an analogy, right?
Why is it so important for you to attempt to discredit me by asking a question like this?
When God is the potter, he doesn't use clay. He can freaking SPEAK into BEING what he wants to happen.
Yep. And He still operates within the limitations of creation and His own ethics. If He didn't operate within the natural limitation of creation, we would not even recognize the miracle. If He didn't operate within His own ethical guidelines, He would cease to be good. It really is amazing to me that you are willing to worship a God who cannot even follow His own ethics! Sorry, but I am one of the sheep who knows His master's voice - it is an ethical voice.
You can, again, whine and cry about God being God, but it won't change that God is God and can do what he wants to do.
Another cheap attempt to discredit what I am saying - I am not sure why I am still surprised when I see a statement like this in your post. Lesson 101 from Ann Coulter / James White - if your opponent disagrees with you, call him a baby - lol.
Then you need to read the Bible more about the nature and character of God.
Right - since disagreeing with you means the same thing as ignorance, I must need to study more of the Bible.
God doesn't "want" anyone to perish. Just like you don't "want" to spank your child. But he's holy and just. He has ordained and declared death to those who disobey him.
1. I do not hit my children
2. Claiming that God is Holy and Just in the same statement as declaring His disobedient children "dead" to Him is a ghastly contradiction. It seems as if you are limiting God (He cannot help damning His children) in order to preserve a literal translation of scripture. I am not willing to sacrifice God's character to make it fit into a literal reading of scripture written by people with a limited understanding of God.
3. Instead, God is offering His justification and sanctification to His sick children, in order to teach us how to love like we once did. If we refuse, we choose to be separated from Him.
He would be a liar if he didn't follow through with what he said.
Yes! In the same way, He would be a liar if He demanded His children to be more ethical than Himself.
You are also TOTALLY IGNORING the part that says, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". Either reconcile it or come to grips with the fact God had a hand in it.
Again, if you must ignore scripture, then 100% of the time, your position is wrong.
How am I ignoring scripture? I am interpreting scripture differently than you are - that is all. If I was ignoring scripture I would refuse to acknowledge it. The only difference between my interpretation of this passage and yours is that I choose to understand it from the point of view of the human being who wrote it, rather than believing the human who wrote it was copying a word for word revelation from God. God used people to reveal His Word to the world - and just like the analogy of the clay - we have limitations.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font] You apparently don't know what glory is by your bastardization of the term, here.
Actually, I think is an accurate comparison. My friend, who was about 6 years old at the time, justified his actions because the tomato worms were eating his tomatoes. It was the "just" thing to do in his mind to get rid of the problem. The tomato worms had personally offended him and he was going to have his vengeance. Yes it was a cruel act, but at least it didn't last for eternity.
So God's power in the situation would not have happened. No plagues. No display of power to the people.
Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
The need for miracles reflected the lack of faith of the Jewish people not a need for God to display His power. The fact is, despite the miracles in Egypt and in the desert, the Jewish people of that generation refused to listen, anyway; and they perished because if their lack of faith.
Instead, the people would have credited Moses for getting Pharaoh to let them go.
Many of the people still credited Moses, despite the miracles that God produced. The miracles did nothing to convince them.
It's perfectly clear why God did it the way he did it. To let his glory, his name, and his power be known.
Matthew 12:39
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Exactly right. If it's restricted it's not free.
Then you believe that God is not all powerful?
Actually TexUs, this is Anastacia's position - I am arguing the opposite point of view.
Surely you realize it's an analogy, right?
Why is it so important for you to attempt to discredit me by asking a question like this?
When God is the potter, he doesn't use clay. He can freaking SPEAK into BEING what he wants to happen.
Yep. And He still operates within the limitations of creation and His own ethics. If He didn't operate within the natural limitation of creation, we would not even recognize the miracle. If He didn't operate within His own ethical guidelines, He would cease to be good. It really is amazing to me that you are willing to worship a God who cannot even follow His own ethics! Sorry, but I am one of the sheep who knows His master's voice - it is an ethical voice.
You can, again, whine and cry about God being God, but it won't change that God is God and can do what he wants to do.
Another cheap attempt to discredit what I am saying - I am not sure why I am still surprised when I see a statement like this in your post. Lesson 101 from Ann Coulter / James White - if your opponent disagrees with you, call him a baby - lol.
Then you need to read the Bible more about the nature and character of God.
Right - since disagreeing with you means the same thing as ignorance, I must need to study more of the Bible.
God doesn't "want" anyone to perish. Just like you don't "want" to spank your child. But he's holy and just. He has ordained and declared death to those who disobey him.
1. I do not hit my children
2. Claiming that God is Holy and Just in the same statement as declaring His disobedient children "dead" to Him is a ghastly contradiction. It seems as if you are limiting God (He cannot help damning His children) in order to preserve a literal translation of scripture. I am not willing to sacrifice God's character to make it fit into a literal reading of scripture written by people with a limited understanding of God.
3. Instead, God is offering His justification and sanctification to His sick children, in order to teach us how to love like we once did. If we refuse, we choose to be separated from Him.
He would be a liar if he didn't follow through with what he said.
Yes! In the same way, He would be a liar if He demanded His children to be more ethical than Himself.
You are also TOTALLY IGNORING the part that says, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". Either reconcile it or come to grips with the fact God had a hand in it.
Again, if you must ignore scripture, then 100% of the time, your position is wrong.
How am I ignoring scripture? I am interpreting scripture differently than you are - that is all. If I was ignoring scripture I would refuse to acknowledge it. The only difference between my interpretation of this passage and yours is that I choose to understand it from the point of view of the human being who wrote it, rather than believing the human who wrote it was copying a word for word revelation from God. God used people to reveal His Word to the world - and just like the analogy of the clay - we have limitations.
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[/font] You apparently don't know what glory is by your bastardization of the term, here.
Actually, I think is an accurate comparison. My friend, who was about 6 years old at the time, justified his actions because the tomato worms were eating his tomatoes. It was the "just" thing to do in his mind to get rid of the problem. The tomato worms had personally offended him and he was going to have his vengeance. Yes it was a cruel act, but at least it didn't last for eternity.
So God's power in the situation would not have happened. No plagues. No display of power to the people.
Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
The need for miracles reflected the lack of faith of the Jewish people not a need for God to display His power. The fact is, despite the miracles in Egypt and in the desert, the Jewish people of that generation refused to listen, anyway; and they perished because if their lack of faith.
Instead, the people would have credited Moses for getting Pharaoh to let them go.
Many of the people still credited Moses, despite the miracles that God produced. The miracles did nothing to convince them.
It's perfectly clear why God did it the way he did it. To let his glory, his name, and his power be known.
Matthew 12:39
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Exactly right. If it's restricted it's not free.
Then you believe that God is not all powerful?
Where do you see that I'm saying he's not following his own ethics?
He can use the clay how he wants to use it. How in the hell do you get "he doesn't have ethics" from that?
Part if his ethics, by the way, are punishing people he says he will punish. If he didn't do that, he would lie.
Only because you don't understand that if God says, "I will punish those who do wrong to me" and doesn't do it- he'd be a LIAR.
He is not a liar. He will do what he promises to do: punish people.
Does God lie, aspen? It seems that you're arguing he does.
Wow, that's a big pot, kettle. You said above that God is limited and now you say he's not. LOL...
And how is saying that God keeps his word "limiting God"?
I'm saying he's not a liar. You're arguing that he is.
I read this as, "blah blah blah".
I challenged you to address the part about Pharaoh instead of ignoring it. You then say you aren't ignoring it and... get this... you still end up ignoring it and don't address it.
You even bastardized what just means.
Do you want me to explain these terms to you?
ah ha!!!!!
So there was a NEED for Miracles! You said it would have been the same regardless of what happened but now you admit there was a NEED!
This is why it's hard to take you seriously. You can't keep your beliefs straight and they change depending on the argument of the day.
I'm the one that believes in an all powerful and Sovereign God.
You're the one that seeks to place limitations on him.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Where do you see that I'm saying he's not following his own ethics?
God tells us not to murder - yet, you seem to have no problem with your God murdering thousands of people. God tells us to forgive our enemies - yet you seem to have no problem with God sending people to Hell for eternity. We are all sinful, yet God decides to justify and sanctify us, but hardens Pharaoh's heart as a means to an end.
He can use the clay how he wants to use it. How in the hell do you get "he doesn't have ethics" from that?
I think you need to calm down. He cannot use the clay anyway He wants to because at some point it would cease to be clay by definition.
Part if his ethics, by the way, are punishing people he says he will punish. If he didn't do that, he would lie.
Unless the people who wrote the OT gave meaning to natural disasters by calling them "God's punishment". Or mixed up their own nationalism with God's will. It is very possible - America did it with the idea of "Manifest Destiny".
Only because you don't understand that if God says, "I will punish those who do wrong to me" and doesn't do it- he'd be a LIAR.
He is not a liar. He will do what he promises to do: punish people.
Punishment requires a learning component. Is Hell really going to teach anyone, anything? Hell will be God's mercy for the unredeemed.
Does God lie, aspen? It seems that you're arguing he does.
Nope. But His authors are bound by culture and nationalism and the scientific progress of the time they were living in when they wrote the scriptures.
Wow, that's a big pot, kettle. You said above that God is limited and now you say he's not. LOL...
And how is saying that God keeps his word "limiting God"?
I'm saying he's not a liar. You're arguing that he is.
God is limited, by His own will. Therefore He remains all-powerful, yet limited by choice.
I read this as, "blah blah blah".
How flattering....
I see I am engaged in a respectful dialog with a person who really wants to understand me....
I challenged you to address the part about Pharaoh instead of ignoring it. You then say you aren't ignoring it and... get this... you still end up ignoring it and don't address it.
I cannot force you to read/understand my interpretation. My statement is perfectly clear and reasonable.
You even bastardized what just means.
Do you want me to explain these terms to you?
Actually, my use of the term "just" in my story is misused - that is the point! God is not a 6 year old with a magnifying glass, torching his children.
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font] ah ha!!!!!
So there was a NEED for Miracles! You said it would have been the same regardless of what happened but now you admit there was a NEED!
This is why it's hard to take you seriously. You can't keep your beliefs straight and they change depending on the argument of the day.
Incredible......
I bet that really felt good to zing me like that, didn't it? Now finally, you are on solid ground!!! You can dismiss me completely on the basis of being inconsistent....
Oh wait...
I never said miracles were not necessary - that was just your strawman......
I said that Pharaoh's heart did not need to harden by God. God provided miracles that were separate from that event. Splitting of the Red Sea, pillar of fire, manna.
Oh and in your zeal to pantse me....you missed my point completely. Even with the miracles, the Jewish people refused to believe - so they really didn't make any difference in the long term. That was my purpose of including the quote from Jesus.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font] I'm the one that believes in an all powerful and Sovereign God.
You're the one that seeks to place limitations on him.
Indeed. He is limited by His own will.
God tells us not to murder - yet, you seem to have no problem with your God murdering thousands of people. God tells us to forgive our enemies - yet you seem to have no problem with God sending people to Hell for eternity. We are all sinful, yet God decides to justify and sanctify us, but hardens Pharaoh's heart as a means to an end.
He can use the clay how he wants to use it. How in the hell do you get "he doesn't have ethics" from that?
I think you need to calm down. He cannot use the clay anyway He wants to because at some point it would cease to be clay by definition.
Part if his ethics, by the way, are punishing people he says he will punish. If he didn't do that, he would lie.
Unless the people who wrote the OT gave meaning to natural disasters by calling them "God's punishment". Or mixed up their own nationalism with God's will. It is very possible - America did it with the idea of "Manifest Destiny".
Only because you don't understand that if God says, "I will punish those who do wrong to me" and doesn't do it- he'd be a LIAR.
He is not a liar. He will do what he promises to do: punish people.
Punishment requires a learning component. Is Hell really going to teach anyone, anything? Hell will be God's mercy for the unredeemed.
Does God lie, aspen? It seems that you're arguing he does.
Nope. But His authors are bound by culture and nationalism and the scientific progress of the time they were living in when they wrote the scriptures.
Wow, that's a big pot, kettle. You said above that God is limited and now you say he's not. LOL...
And how is saying that God keeps his word "limiting God"?
I'm saying he's not a liar. You're arguing that he is.
God is limited, by His own will. Therefore He remains all-powerful, yet limited by choice.
I read this as, "blah blah blah".
How flattering....
I see I am engaged in a respectful dialog with a person who really wants to understand me....
I challenged you to address the part about Pharaoh instead of ignoring it. You then say you aren't ignoring it and... get this... you still end up ignoring it and don't address it.
I cannot force you to read/understand my interpretation. My statement is perfectly clear and reasonable.
You even bastardized what just means.
Do you want me to explain these terms to you?
Actually, my use of the term "just" in my story is misused - that is the point! God is not a 6 year old with a magnifying glass, torching his children.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font]
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font] ah ha!!!!!
So there was a NEED for Miracles! You said it would have been the same regardless of what happened but now you admit there was a NEED!
This is why it's hard to take you seriously. You can't keep your beliefs straight and they change depending on the argument of the day.
Incredible......
I bet that really felt good to zing me like that, didn't it? Now finally, you are on solid ground!!! You can dismiss me completely on the basis of being inconsistent....
Oh wait...
I never said miracles were not necessary - that was just your strawman......
I said that Pharaoh's heart did not need to harden by God. God provided miracles that were separate from that event. Splitting of the Red Sea, pillar of fire, manna.
Oh and in your zeal to pantse me....you missed my point completely. Even with the miracles, the Jewish people refused to believe - so they really didn't make any difference in the long term. That was my purpose of including the quote from Jesus.
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font] I'm the one that believes in an all powerful and Sovereign God.
You're the one that seeks to place limitations on him.
Indeed. He is limited by His own will.
Murder is different than justly killing people because of their sin.
God said he would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. The only condition was, unless he found 10 righteous people. He did not.
Your god would lie and not do what he said he would do. My God is not a liar. My God did what he said, and destroyed the cities:
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
When you read that, do you think "God and man are the same"??????
Or do you think, "There are different roles for God and man", that... Vengeance is God's and not ours? There are different roles?
The point being, vengeance, judgement, wrath: those are things reserved for God. WE ARE NOT to do those to our enemies, God can.
You can whine and cry about that, but it's right there in the Bible.
God choses to justify and sanctify only a FEW. For NARROW is the gate.
Pharaoh is not one of the few.
Yes, that they were wrong.
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
I haven't had to describe the difference between just and glory in a long time, probably since I was involved in teaching high schoolers. But here we go.
Being just means doing what is right by God's law.
A child burning up worms is not something "just"... The child never made it clear (nor could he), that the worms should not eat his plants. Therefore, any actions against them are not going to fall under the category of "just".
On the other hand, God has made his law clear to us (see the last quote above). We are without excuse. We have the Bible on top of that. We know what God's law is. And again, WE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. The Bible freaking says it.
Only God can be just. Only he can do what is right. God being just means he must do right by his law. This means OBEYING THE LAW HE CREATED: "The penalty of sin is death".
If he did not follow his law, he would be a liar, and not just. Since he does, he is just: he follows what is right by the law he created.
God's glory is his qualities that we see, that make us go "wow!". This is his beauty, perfection, holiness, righteousness, love, goodness, and power.
The kid magnifying the worms again fails because the worms can never even understand those attributes of the kid with the magnifying glass. Nor can other worms that were spared understand it. They lack the mental capacity. Again- the analogy utterly fails.
We, as humans, can see in creation God's attributes (again- see the last quote above). We can get a sense of his beauty, perfection, holiness, righteousness, love, goodness, and power. Therefore, whatever God does- he does it to reveal this glory to us! Anything he does is for his glory. When God hardens the heart of Pharaoh- he does it to bring Glory unto himself. How? By his display of power, perfection, holiness... Pharaoh was acting against God's will: God showcased his power and just nature by punishing him for that. It made known his power. It made known his holiness because God punished that which was not holy: showing people the standard of holiness he desires. It showcased his love for his people.
If God were to show amazing miracles, one after the other, to most people: would they become believers? Yes.... Why would Pharaoh be any different? God hardened his heart so the people would get a chance to see his power, his glory, at work.
jacobtaylor
New Member
- Feb 11, 2011
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I have not read threw this post but you have a very different view of God than I do.
Hell will be Gods mercy?
It looks like you do this all by yourself, then become offended when its pointed out. Just where did you learn this stuff from?
Hell will be Gods mercy?
God is a murder?
Is this a denial of scripture?
Now you seem to understand God, but the above statements indicate you don't. Is murder one of those limited choices as you said above?
It looks like you do this all by yourself, then become offended when its pointed out. Just where did you learn this stuff from?
Have to agree with Jacob on the murder part.
Murder means essentially plotting to kill someone - in the American system you have first and second degree, but both are characterized by the intent. Then you have (in our system) manslaughter which is without the intent; IE: vehicular manslaughter by driving a car beyond in a dangerous manner. Legally speaking, this is very important. The Hebrew from the OT bears this out when it comes to murder - it literally means to lay in wait and kill. If we expand murder to mean killing, then the hypothetical situation of a someone intending to kill or maim a child, spouse, parent, or other loved one becomes murder.
God clearly never plotted to kill any person when it comes to hell. I understand that you do not make the distinction between killing and murder, but legal systems do.
However, it could be argued that the God of the Old Testament commit murder in a sense of the word. (That's where I fail to see the reconciliation perspective.) God has killed before (always carrying out a just sentence), but even in that case it's the result of a crime (sin or many sins) and not specifically a murder. He did not lay in wait for a specific person or group, he pronounced a righteous judgment.
Murder means essentially plotting to kill someone - in the American system you have first and second degree, but both are characterized by the intent. Then you have (in our system) manslaughter which is without the intent; IE: vehicular manslaughter by driving a car beyond in a dangerous manner. Legally speaking, this is very important. The Hebrew from the OT bears this out when it comes to murder - it literally means to lay in wait and kill. If we expand murder to mean killing, then the hypothetical situation of a someone intending to kill or maim a child, spouse, parent, or other loved one becomes murder.
God clearly never plotted to kill any person when it comes to hell. I understand that you do not make the distinction between killing and murder, but legal systems do.
However, it could be argued that the God of the Old Testament commit murder in a sense of the word. (That's where I fail to see the reconciliation perspective.) God has killed before (always carrying out a just sentence), but even in that case it's the result of a crime (sin or many sins) and not specifically a murder. He did not lay in wait for a specific person or group, he pronounced a righteous judgment.
Exactly, just because it was translated by men doesn't mean that it's accurate. How long was Jonah in the fish's belly? Is the Old covenant with Israel still binding?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Hi Jacob - I think you would benefit from reading the entire thread. The original conversation was between Anastacia and myself - TexUs joined in later and certain ideas were lost in the dialog.
Here is a summary of my posts:
1. God is ethical - he would never ask His creation to have a higher ethical standard than He has. This includes forgiving our enemies, refusing the flawed ethical standard of 'ends justifying the means', and not murdering people because they disobey you.
It seems to me that TexUs believes that God's acts define His ethics - He is above the law. So, anything God does is justified by His very being; not only is He allowed to do anything He wants, while remaining good and just, He can also hold us to a different standard of ethics.
2. As bad as Hell is going to be - I believe like CS Lewis and Augustine that Hell will be a mercy compared to spending eternity with a Holy God in an unredeemed condition. People will choose Hell.
Here is an idea that people simply detest - as if the thought of sinners burning in Hell for eternity is part of the sweetness of Heaven for them.
3. Authors of the OT were bound by their culture, scientific advancement, and strong nationalism and it is reflected in their writings. Although I believe every word of the OT is supposed to be included in the text, I also believe that the text is exaggerated and contains a great deal of misdirected blame - 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' is a perfect example. On one hand it is correct (yet almost meaningless) to make this statement about every action a person makes 'God provided me with the energy to run a marathon' - one the other hand, the other reason I was able to run a marathon was because of training and diet. Therefore, giving the glory to God is good, but if a person 2000 years in the future was looking at my diary, they may think that God made a direct intervention, rather than simply reading it as a casual description.
Many Christians believe in a literal translation of the Bible - as if God dictated direct revelation to people in a word by word message. Nothing human is included in the scriptures only direct revelation. I do not believe this idea - although I do have a high regard for scripture.
4. God is not a murderer. I made that statement to TexUs in order to make a point. If you sacrifice God's character in order to uphold an ultra-literal translation of scripture - God ends up looking like a murderer or a God that orchestrate's all kinds of evil means in order to let us know how powerful He is.
Some Christians believe that the ethics of many of the characters in the OT are good and should be followed today. Abram lying about his wife - calling her his sister, Lot's daughter sleeping with him, Lot giving away his daughter to a mob at his door. All of these actions are horrific - the point of the OT is that God is all-powerful; it is NOT a book on ethical behavior, but rather a cautionary tale of how humans failed to respond to an all powerful God. If you were to follow the ethics of the main characters in the OT, you would have to adopt an ends to means philosophy. Only God is able to respond appropriately to His own Sovereignty - and He did - Jesus is our example of how to respond to God.
5. I am reacting to offensive language (aspen, you can cry and whine all you want), rather than ideas or when TexUs or others disagree with my understanding of scripture. As much as people would like to believe I am a person who knows nothing about scripture or God; I have actually studied the Bible quite a bit and have been in a deep relationship with God for 25 years.
I think it would be easier for some people on this board if I was a person who hated the Bible or denied the Trinity or adopted some other obvious heresy because than they could dismiss me outright. Instead, my interpretation of the scriptures is merely different and I think people like TexUs and Anastacia can't stand it. And since I am not a literalist, I have a hard time understanding how they must feel.
Hope that clears up a few things for you, Jacob.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]Exodus 4:24
At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him.[/font]
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]Exodus 13:15
When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed the firstborn of both people and animals in Egypt. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’[/font]
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]These examples look premeditated to me. The Egyptian children did not deserve to die for the sins of their fathers. Also, if we carried out these sentences for the same offenses - it would be viewed as harsh and unjust - murder.[/font]
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]This is why I have a hard time reconciling the God I know with these actions. Based on what I know about God, and what I know about the Israelites and their need for a powerful understanding of God; the point of both stories is the Sovereignty of God, not ethics.[/font]
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[font="'Book Antiqua"]blessings[/font]
jacobtaylor
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I really don't need to read the entire post, you reiterated your position very well. In your first sentence you question Gods sovereignty. In the second you do it again by dismissing God as being non- ethical. I can only guess your definition of Gods sovereignty is unethical. I hate to ask what you think about Job, you sound just like him. Lamenting about how God is unjust. Maybe you should stomp your feet and remind God it all about you. See where that gets you. :unsure:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
If you believe I am questioning God's sovereignty in any of my points, you must not have read any of them. I am truly mystified!
Can you give me an example?
As far as the book of Job is concerned, if God decided to allow a satan to murder my family simply to prove a point - I would be justifiably pissed. It is a good thing that the Book of Job is just a story about the Sovereignty of God, rather than a description of God's character.
God not only allowed Satan to destroy Job's family He pointed Job out to Satan. God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family. God can do that. He doesn't answer to anyone. If you choose to be angry with God, pity you!
Job 1:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
Job 1:12 (NKJV)
[sup]12 [/sup]And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I am not angry with God at all. If you believe the story of Job is about God's character, I pity you. A god with the character of the god of Job is not worthy to be worshiped. Thankfully, Job is just a story about the Sovereignty of God, not His character.
It must be really rough trying to change the God of the Bible into a god who pleases you.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Not as tough as preforming the mental gymnastics necessary to call a bad god good - by worshiping a god without enough integrity to follow his own ethical standards, yet arrogant enough to demand his puny creation do so - and torturing them for eternity if they fail.
jacobtaylor
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One example is below the question you asked for an example. Their are a couple other quotes from you in my last post.
Are you saying you don't believe the OT? Looks like you claim to have a better understanding of Gods character than Moses. So tell me just how much of the OT should we disregard as fictitious? Heres your words.
I think I understand your position now. The bible is in error so you pick and choose verses then apply your own reasoning. I think you need to spend some time reflecting on whether you are born of God or not. Its clear you have issues with the God that reveled Himself to Abraham and Moses or the Bible. So was Jesus teaching fairy tails when He quoted from the books of Moses as well? I don't remember reading about him confessing the Torah was fictional or a misrepresentation of the Fathers character. In the end I think you will find your the one mistaken. Many of your statements could even be considered blasphemous by many Christians.
Why do you even bother to call yourself a christian? Why identify yourself with something you so venomly disagree with?
If your god isn't the God of the Bible then who is he? The God of the Bible is ALWAYS right in what He does, including drowning everyone on Earth but 8. Who is your god? Do you know?
jacobtaylor
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I don't see much that can be gained from this conversation. In my opinion aspen is simply being blasphemous in more than one instance.
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