Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

[Daniel L.]

scriptures say that Jesus was tempted

Yes it also says, "without sin", which is why you can't have the abomination of desolation standing in the "Holy Place" of the temple of His Human Body, and why the temple in Matthew 24 is not the temple of His Body as you try to defend:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[ScottA]

Yes it also says, "without sin", which is why you can't have the abomination of desolation standing in the "Holy Place" of the temple of His Human Body, and why the temple in Matthew 24 is not the temple of His Body as you try to defend:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Yes, that is correct. But then you cannot say that Jesus did not take sin upon Himself, for which he died on the cross.

Both are true, showing that He was both fully man and fully God and qualified in both to be counted as righteous, without which there is no salvation.

 

[Daniel L.]

But then you cannot say that He did not take sin upon Himself

He took sin upon Himself, not inside the "Holy Place" of His Body. He carried the sins of many, as one carries a cross on the outside of Himself. As a circle of Light, even tho it is surrounded by darkness, the darkness does not come into the circle of Light.

So, you can't say sin came into the "Holy Place" of His Body, not even His Human Body.

 

[ScottA]

He took sin upon Himself, not inside the "Holy Place" of His Body. He carried the sins of many, as one carries a cross on the outside of Himself. As a circle of Light, even tho it is surrounded by darkness, the darkness does not come into the circle of Light.

So, you can't say sin came into the "Holy Place" of His Body, not even His Human Body.

We have already had this conversation, and I know you would like to believe that no sin entered into Jesus, and you do, and it is even good that you do. But that would mean there is no abomination that makes desolation and that the word is not true. Yet these things cannot be said of the foreshadowing only, of the temple that is made with hands. If it were only that, it is not an abomination, but is forgivable. This Christ spoke of, saying:

"No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— Mark 3:27-29
​

Which is to say, that Christ was indeed fully bound, fully man. But as the Firstfruits of the Holy Spirit--it is unforgiveable, from which comes our salvation. Therefore, He said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Amillenialism, Covenant theology, dispensational theology et. al. are all man made constructs to try to understand Gods Word. After 47 1/2 years of walking with the Lord and study I have found that dispensationalism, though imperfect does the least harm to scripture than all the rest and relies the least on reinterpretations than do all the other major hermeneutics.

Now I too know everything that is <dispensational theology>, thanks.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok so you didn't mention the land promises to Israel, which I know for a fact is a big deal to Dispensationalists. I guess you didn't want to bring it up because there's been so much evidence presented against it lately. All good.

No, because the land promises are EVERLASTING! and Israel has not been living in the land it was promised as the maps on another thread showed clearly.

If you wish I can give you all the promises that have yet to be fulfilled that must still be fulfilled.

So when is it that you believe Jesus will establish His kingdom? Because 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 clearly shows Christ returning v. 23, then the end of the world in v. 24 where He delivers up the 'ended' kingdom to His Father and puts down all rule, authority and power.

Well you seem to neglect Jesus returning to earth, to establish HIs kingdom as clearly shown in Matt. 24&25 as well as numerous OT prophecies.

When you add all this with REv. 19-21 Y9ou see Jesus return to earth, battle the antichrist and overthrow HIm. then there is a first resurrection of the righteous (OT promise) and a 1,000 year gap. Then God destroys the universe, and sets up "eternity". The bible fills in the events of those 1,000 years!

See, this is why I don't agree with this doctrine because plain scripture refutes it completely. The only way this can be explained away is for somebody to say "Well, those verses don't mean what they say."

YOur problem is that you demand these be strictly in near proximation which they are not!

1. Jesus is resurrected. Now 1992w years ago.
2. Then those who belong to HIm at His return. Hasn't happened yet 1992 years later.
3. Then the end (cometh is not in the Greek). This happens 1,000 years after He physically returns to earth!

When the bible has many many passages on a subject, you just cannot take one and make it all powerful. You have to look at all verses in light of teh subject (here eschatology) to learn if there are other factors one writer did nnot include

That's literally the ONLY way it can be argued against.

If that were the only verse on the issue, I would agree, but it isn't so your point is irrelavent.

V. 25-26 state that He's put all enemies under His feet. So how's the devil gonna be released at the end of 1,000 years after that?

Quite simply because when Jesus returns to earth as prophesied, it is not the end of time, but the onset of the millenial kingdom. Jesus is not reigning yet though He is king of kings. The earth is not under His control-YET. god is still allowing Satan temproary rule. God the Father reigns in Heaven not Jesus. Jesus returns at the end of the campaign of Armageddon and establishes His kingdom after 75 days.

 

[Daniel L.]

there is no abomination that makes desolation and that the word is not true.

Believing the Human Jesus had no sin in Him, just means the abomination of desolation has to stand in the wordly temple. Not the temple of His Body.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now I too know everything that is <dispensational theology>, thanks.

Don't know if you are being sarcastic or serious, but if you have not study Scripture with an understanding of what dispensationalism teaches about the time periods and covenants and the hermeneutic used by dispensational believers, then you do not know much of dispensational theology.

 

[Daniel L.]

then there is a first resurrection of the righteous (OT promise) and a 1,000 year gap. Then God destroys the universe, and sets up "eternity".

After the 1000 year Reign, there is a "little season" with the devil on the loose:

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

After the 1000 year Reign, there is a "little season" with the devil on the loose:

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Yes then comes the great white throne judgment .

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Don't know if you are being sarcastic or serious, but if you have not study Scripture with an understanding of what dispensationalism teaches about the time periods and covenants and the hermeneutic used by dispensational believers, then you do not know much of dispensational theology.

When ignorance is bliss it's folly to be informed

 

[ScottA]

Believing the Human Jesus had no sin in Him, just means the abomination of desolation has to stand in the wordly temple. Not the temple of His Body.

You are mixing what is only manifest, only made with hands, only flesh, only a likeness--with those things of God.

But no, there can be no offence or abomination only in likeness. Those things are forgivable. But the abomination that makes desolation, is not forgivable. As I have already pointed out, as Jesus said:

"No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— Mark 3:27-29​

 

[GEN2REV]

the land promises are EVERLASTING! and Israel has not been living in the land it was promised as the maps on another thread showed clearly.

If you wish I can give you all the promises that have yet to be fulfilled that must still be fulfilled.

You're welcome to do that. It helps a bit to address all the verses that you claim God promises land to the Israelites. Joshua clears it up nicely so if there are others we need to address, that'd be a good idea.

I saw those maps and they didn't show anything clearly at all. It was an image of Isreal/Palestine area in green and you stated that there was a large area on it that was not occupied, etc. Nothing in the image corroborated your statement. You can re-post the image if you like, but not for my sake.

Well you seem to neglect Jesus returning to earth, to establish HIs kingdom as clearly shown in Matt. 24&25 as well as numerous OT prophecies.

Yeah all those OT prophecies corroborate Matthew 24's return of Jesus as the world falls apart and is destroyed while His saints are gathered and all sinners destroyed. Who would live upon the "desolated" earth at that time? The next event is the New Heaven and New Earth because the old has passed away.
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11

When you add all this with REv. 19-21 You see Jesus return to earth, battle the antichrist and overthrow HIm. then there is a first resurrection of the righteous (OT promise) and a 1,000 year gap. Then God destroys the universe, and sets up "eternity". The bible fills in the events of those 1,000 years!

Actually the only place that even speaks of a "1,000" year period of time is in a small passage in Rev. 20:1-7. Nowhere else in scripture is that corroborated at all; and you all have been challenged repeatedly to produce anything that contradicts that with no success on your part.

All these verses coincide perfectly with Christ returning after the Tribulation, gathering His saints, destroying all sinners and wickedness, including the devil and death, and handing over His rule to the Father for the completion of all time upon the physical earth.
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11
1 Corinthians 15:22-26

YOur problem is that you demand these be strictly in near proximation which they are not!

I don't demand it at all. The Bible makes it plainly clear. I don't need the Bible to say anything, the Truth always speaks for itself. Unlike so many of you, I don't have any agenda that I need to twist scripture to corroborate.

If it supported your position plainly, I'd be 100% on your side. It does not.

When the bible has many many passages on a subject, you just cannot take one and make it all powerful. You have to look at all verses in light of teh subject (here eschatology) to learn if there are other factors one writer did nnot include

You're absolutely right and your belief in a 1,000 year time period after Christ's return is only touched on in one ... tiny ... little passage in Rev. 20:1-7. There is no other scripture that corroborates that 1,000 years from Genesis to Jude.

... when Jesus returns to earth as prophesied, it is not the end of time, but the onset of the millenial kingdom. Jesus is not reigning yet though He is king of kings. The earth is not under His control-YET. god is still allowing Satan temproary rule. God the Father reigns in Heaven not Jesus. Jesus returns at the end of the campaign of Armageddon and establishes His kingdom after 75 days.

Nope. Jesus' kingdom was christened when He defeated the enemy on the Cross and successfully lived a life free from all sin. He has been ruling in heaven ever since. When He returns, just as scripture makes clear, He will destroy everything unholy and hand over all rule and authority to His Father. Just as all those with no agenda cannot help but plainly see here in scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:22-26

 

[Daniel L.]

But no

There is no other option, only the wordly temple, call it what you like, having the abomination standing in the temple of His Body is not an option.

likeness

Not "likeness", but fullness or in total:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness

The man who blasphemed had no forgiveness, and he was flesh.

 

[ScottA]

There is no other option, only the wordly temple, call it what you like, having the abomination standing in the temple of His Body is not an option.


Not "likeness", but fullness or in total:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


The man who blasphemed had no forgiveness, and he was flesh.

Yes, although I have shown you your error and also explained the truth, you have made it quite clear that for you there is no other option than to accredit the stone temple with glory rather than Christ, the only true "holy place."

It is enough. So be it.

As for me, it is my witness that Jesus has not only come in the flesh, but also in the Spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When ignorance is bliss it's folly to be informed

whatever floats your boat !

 

[Daniel L.]

there is no other option than to accredit the stone temple with glory rather than Christ, the only true "holy place."

You just can't have sin in the "Holy Place" of the Temple of the Body of Jesus. I much rather place it in the wordly stone temple than inside my LORD and Saviour. All Scripture testifies of the Holiness of Christ. You just can't do it.

Jesus has not only come in the flesh, but also in the Spirit.

The Spirit of Truth and Christ are distinct Divine Persons, The Father will send the Spirit in Jesus Name, not send Jesus in Jesus Name:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is not the second coming of Christ. It is prophecy of Pentecost.

 

[farouk]

Yes then comes the great white throne judgment .

The great white throne in the NT seems to be distinct from the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yeah all those OT prophecies corroborate Matthew 24's return of Jesus as the world falls apart and is destroyed while His saints are gathered and all sinners destroyed. Who would live upon the "desolated" earth at that time? The next event is the New Heaven and New Earth because the old has passed away.
Matthew 24:29-31
Isaiah 13:9-11

You over read the passage. Yes there will be destruction. Nearly all of it from the 70 th week of Daniel events described in the trumpets and bowls.
But the earth is to be restored to a near edenic state as declared in Scripture.

Nope. Jesus' kingdom was christened when He defeated the enemy on the Cross and successfully lived a life free from all sin. He has been ruling in heaven ever since. When He returns, just as scripture makes clear, He will destroy everything unholy and hand over all rule and authority to His Father. Just as all those with no agenda cannot help but plainly see here in scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:22-26

It doesn't say He started reigning at His death. It just says He must reign. And He does not reign from Heaven where the Father reigns above the Son! And if this is how Jesus rules His kingdom for 2,000 years- you are looking at the false Jesus, because Gods Word says He will rule with a rod of iron! Not like the sta-puff marshmallow man if He was ruling earth now!

All these verses coincide perfectly with Christ returning after the Tribulation, gathering His saints, destroying all sinners and wickedness, including the devil and death, and handing over His rule to the Father for the completion of all time upon the physical earth.

If these were the only three verses I would agree! But there are numerous verses describing life on earth after Jesus returns and it isn't eternity.

I don't demand it at all. The Bible makes it plainly clear. I don't need the Bible to say anything, the Truth always speaks for itself. Unlike so many of you, I don't have any agenda that I need to twist scripture to corroborate.

If it supported your position plainly, I'd be 100% on your side. It does not.

Spiritual sounding statements that say nothing! The verse in Corinthians by itself does not support my position. But taken with the numerous other passages describing Jesus return and what happens afterwards it does perfectly!

You're absolutely right and your belief in a 1,000 year time period after Christ's return is only touched on in one ... tiny ... little passage in Rev. 20:1-7. There is no other scripture that corroborates that 1,000 years from Genesis to Jude.

AND???? Your point? Are you implying because it is not strewn about the rest of Scripture we should not take it seriously or literally?

When I get time, I will post the numerous verses that show life in the 1,000 year kingdom on earth that takes place between Revelation 19:11 and REv. 20: 10 or 11.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The great white throne in the NY seems to be distinct from the judgment seat of Christ.

they are totally different.! The judgment seat of Christ is when He returns and decides who enters the kingdom on earth or not! The lost are cast into the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. Teh righteous OT dead are physically raised and given access. But the lost are not raised here. This is the first resurrection described in REv. 20.

The great white throne is the final judgment. Teh dead are raised here to be cast into the lake of fire! All the righteous have been reaised or are alive!