Amillennialism

[Marcus O'Reillius]

So how would you explain this continual, repetitive acts of worldwide judgment on the wicked and glorifying the faithful over and over and over and over again in Revelation if it is chronological?

I would offer my explanation, and my admonishment not to read the book of Revelation through as a novel, by demonstrating that the book of Revelation is composed of a series of ofttimes overlapping parallel accounts.

In each account, some information is divulged. We can recognize the overlapping of such accounts by the repetition of specific and unique events.

One of these is the five-fold repetition between chapters 11, 12, and 13 of one-half of the one 'seven' as first split in half and prophesied by Gabriel in Daniel 9:27.
Now there are not 17 and 1/2 years to the one 'seven', but looking at these two halves from different angles relating to different subjects, causes the repetition.

A second repetition is four times the "end" comes to the one 'seven' found twice in chapter 11, and chapters 16, and imputed in 19 with the end of the battle at Armageddon first referenced in Rev 16.

I look for the division of these parallel accounts by a change of both scene and focus.

Thus, I divide:
2&3 - The Churches.
4-11 exclusive of the sidebar account of 11:1-13 - the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology.
11:1-13 - the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses.
12 - the dual parallel accounts of the Woman Israel and the Dragon Satan.
13-16 - the detailed parallel account to the broad overview which concerns just the one 'seven', i.e., the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ.
17&18 - explanatory in nature, and not containing a linear narrative per se.
19-22 - the Epilogue showing the end of the one 'seven', the Millennium, and the hereafter.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, nice to see you're still around.

 

[keras]

He was until he reverted to form and made his usual disgusting and quite unchristian comments against those who challenged his beliefs. Marcus was told his remarks were unacceptable and my hope is the mods have banned him.

Like you, Trekson, his view of the last days is totally colored by a belief in a pre-trib rapture to heaven.
It is evident that no amount of proof against such an unbiblical theory can change the minds of those locked into that belief. And that must be how God wants it and you will be covered in shame and embarrassment when we all stand before the Throne, Luke 21:27-28, and Jesus asks all those who chose false teachings why they didn't read and understand the truth of His prophetic Word.

 

[Trekson]

Your memory is getting away from you, Keras. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.

 

[ezekiel]

This is the count down

Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

When the army's are ready they will attack.


Revelation 9:14
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The bottomless pit in route. Earths crust will move and slide into new places. Ancient one's will come to earth( figs ). Great understanding will happen at this point the books will be rolled up. This is what I call escape from planet x .

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

This is where satan is revealed. The man of lawlessness as talk about from Paul many will fall from the truth. He will stop this war and claim himself as God. But it was satan the pited the nations against each other. It is he that taught all the wrong that's here on Earth. It is satan children fail in the flood of Noa and returned. And now today returns again.

 

[keras]

Your memory is getting away from you, Keras. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.

My apologies.
I am thankful that you aren't trapped in that false belief. I note that a few are changing their belief. For many; a pre-trib rapture and a return with Jesus, is the only end time event they have been taught. But it only takes a prayerful study of the scriptures to see such a thing isn't there.

As this thread is about amillennialism, Revelation 20 says Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years, so that is what I believe. And His people, all true Christians will be here to greet Him with the shout: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

​Sorry Ezekiel, your posts are too confused and your ideas too radical, to discuss rationally.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hi Marcus, nice to see you're still around.

Good to be around.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hi Keras, I believe the signs of the 6th seal will herald His return for the rapture per Luke 21:28. I believe our arrival in heaven is depicted in Rev. 7:9. I don't believe the 6th seal is part of the wrath just the final warning that the wrath of the Lamb is about to begin with the trumpets and will conclude with the wrath of God with the vials.

And I agree with you that the Great Multitude is before the Father in Heaven.

 

[keras]

And I agree with you that the Great Multitude is before the Father in Heaven.

But Revelation 7 is prophesying about events on earth, the first 3 verses set the location and there is no change of venue anywhere. Even Rev 7:15-17 that describe eternity, Rev 21:1-4, is still an earthly scene. Going to heaven is an impossible dream for humans; Jesus said so. John 7:34
No, the vast multitude of Rev 7:9, are all the Lord's Christian people, who were kept safe during the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. All gathered into the holy Land as prophesied soon after the Day of cloud and darkness, Ezekiel 34:11-13

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hey! Let's trust the guy who can't figure out that the sun shines seven times brighter when God heals the wounds He has caused to the Meek and Remnant survivors of the one 'seven' to tell us what Revelation means.

I mean, you really can't trust a self-proclaimed prophet who misconstrues Scripture to tell what Scripture means in other places either.

Going to heaven is an impossible dream for humans; Jesus said so. John 7:34

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus never said it was an impossible dream for humans to go to Heaven.

Jn 7:32 The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering these things about Him, and the chief priests and the Pharisees sent officers to seize Him. 33 Therefore Jesus said, "For a little while longer I am with you, then I go to Him who sent Me. 34 You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come." 35 The Jews then said to one another, " Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He? 36 What is this statement that He said, 'You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come'?"

He said to the crowd of people, living in their flesh, earth-bound even because they couldn't even fathom flying, that they could not "follow" Him. Jesus' forecast that they would not be able to follow Him is true. They could only look upon the earth for Him, and soon, He would not be there. Their confusion is not quite as bad as rabbi keras who teaches this means there is no heaven for us. However, we can see that Jesus' words do confuse them, and hearing they do not understand.

Now in John 14:2-4 Jesus says this:

2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going."

Jesus says that we CAN be where He is going - IF He takes us there - AND we "know" the way! Salvation through faith!

And after being on the island of Patmos, and seeing Jesus there, and having the vision of the Churches ~ how is it that John is translated to the Third Heaven of the Presence of the Father? God says this:

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Did Jesus really say NO HUMAN BEING could EVER go to Heaven? HA! Mercy NO!

You really can't trust this rabbi fellow to teach Scripture at all.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Well let's see what this false prophet says about Revelation; it should be good...

But Revelation 7 is prophesying about events on earth, the first 3 verses set the location and there is no change of venue anywhere.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

[SIZE=10.5pt]IF John were standing ON the earth, he would only be able to see to the horizon, and not the "corners" of the earth... SO ~ his view is NOT ON the earth, in an "earthly scene" but a view OF the earth. That's different! But someone who confuses the positive light of the sun shining brightly on a day of healing for an interpretation of death and destruction by a blowtorch sun-blast can't possibly have any degree of discernment which could allow a level of intelligence to differentiate from being able to see all the earth to being on the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]

The only perspective which would allow a view of the four Angels standing at the four "corners" of the earth must by necessity be away from the earth. And since we know that even if we were to see Angels standing at NE Asia, NW North America, SW South America, and SE Asia - that view would have to rotate from any distant point of perspective in order to "see" all four corners - with Jerusalem in the center.

Can we trust rabbi keras to relate what is in Scripture? Hardly. While what is described is on the earth - at no time does this place John ON the earth! Indeed! If he were on the earth, John could not have seen all that God showed him.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

And remember the self-proclaimed angel keras said there was NO change of venue, ANYWHERE.

...and there is no change of venue anywhere.

Can we trust him when John says this?

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked,

John switches from the distant vision OF the earth to ANOTHER VISION!

But wait... rabbi keras said there was NO change in "venue", the scene or locale of any action or event. Yet there is! And we will explore that change in venue in the next post...

I absolutely, 110% endorse anything the false prophet says is true about Scripture - even the sun burning everyone to a crisp on the Day God heals...

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I really liked it when keras said his name meant messenger... We just have to thank God at how special we are to be in his presence.

But Revelation 7 is prophesying about events on earth,

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

First of all, gentle reader, keras, the self-appointed messenger, misses the break in John's vision - and there are many breaks in the book of Revelation, just as there are many different visions, or views of the multi-faceted action which is accomplished in the end-times among Revelation's many, parallel accounts - is that this vision of the Great Multitude happens AFTER THESE THINGS.

What things? Why the previous vision of the 144,000, which in the detailed, parallel account of the one 'seven' (chps 13-16) we find with Jesus, who is standing ON the earth, before the very Harvest which results in the Great Multitude being arrayed BEFORE the Father. So there is a CHANGE OF VENUE. Now for more on that.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Remember: this vision which happens after the 144,000 are sealed on the earth includes: the throne of God, the Lamb, Angels who encircle the Elders and the Four Living Creatures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Where have we seen them before?[/SIZE]

CHAPTER 4
Scene in Heaven
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty- four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty- four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

John is IN HEAVEN when he sees the Father upon the Throne. And the 24 Elders.

Rev 4:6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.

Well, lo and behold! The four Living Creatures are also IN HEAVEN!

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

Hallelujah! Jesus is there too - IN HEAVEN - just like He said He'd be in John 7:34 and 14:2-4. What about the Angels? Aren't they only on the earth?

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

SO! The THRONE of GOD, The LAMB, the 24 ELDERS, the FOUR LIVING CREATURES, and ALL the ANGELS in verse 7:9-11 ARE IN HEAVEN!

So when the false messenger says that there is NO CHANGE IN VENUE - you can absolutely believe EVERYTHING he says...

...Not.

John's vision of the whole earth with the 12 tribes is not on the earth.
And John's vision of the Great Multitude is IN HEAVEN.
[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

the vast multitude of Rev 7:9, are all the Lord's Christian people, who were kept safe during the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. All gathered into the holy Land as prophesied soon after the Day of cloud and darkness, Ezekiel 34:11-13

Is this even worth looking at?

I mean, he's been wrong on everything he's said so far ~ what reason has he given us to be qualified to teach us what these passages have to say?

 

[keras]

Y'know Marcus, I don't mind your scathing and vitriolic outbursts.
The reality is that everyone who has an interest in the subjects discussed, will look up the scriptures themselves, we are merely bringing them to their attention. And a factor in deciding who of us is correct, is in the presentation. Yours are aimed at denigrating and vilifying the character of anyone who challenges your beliefs, with wild and inaccurate accusations.
In my posts, I aim to present the scriptures in an easy read way, with other scripture to support it and using modern knowledge along with logic and common sense.

You are basically saying the Prophets are wrong when you rudely say I'm wrong for pointing out unfulfilled prophesies. They are unfulfilled, that is why we should know about them.
Why do you care, anyway? You will be outta here at the first sign of anything nasty happening! Just what direction you will go is debatable.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Please notice the cognitive disconnect which must exist for rabbi keras to say that I say the Prophets are wrong when I say he is wrong.

What must he think of himself?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Y'know Marcus, I don't mind your scathing and vitriolic outbursts.
The reality is that everyone who has an interest in the subjects discussed, will look up the scriptures themselves, we are merely bringing them to their attention. And a factor in deciding who of us is correct, is in the presentation. Yours are aimed at denigrating and vilifying the character of anyone who challenges your beliefs, with wild and inaccurate accusations.
In my posts, I aim to present the scriptures in an easy read way, with other scripture to support it and using modern knowledge along with logic and common sense.

You are basically saying the Prophets are wrong when you rudely say I'm wrong for pointing out unfulfilled prophesies. They are unfulfilled, that is why we should know about them.
Why do you care, anyway? You will be outta here at the first sign of anything nasty happening! Just what direction you will go is debatable.

Please notice the complete lack of substance in rabbi kera's rebuttal to the charges that his interpretations of Scripture are incorrect, totally wrong, and completely devoid of any wisdom.

 

[inchrist]

Please notice the complete lack of substance in rabbi kera's rebuttal to the charges that his interpretations of Scripture are incorrect, totally wrong, and completely devoid of any wisdom.

This is calling the kettle black.....Marcus since you alone are the greatest biblical scholar than the apostles...please explain to me exactly where does it state the great multitude are raptured?

Please dont be simple by stating they are standing before the thrown as proof.....the souls under the altar are also before the throne

Prewrath doctrine has got to be one of the worest theological nonsense to come out of modern theology that should be binned with pretrib in thebtrash can it belongs

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Where is John at the point of Rev. 7:9? He is in heaven where he is being shown most of his vision. He went up there in Rev. 4:1.

Rev. 4:1-2 - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the SAME throne of Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

And Marcus is correct in his interpretation of John 7. They could not come in their unsaved, unredeemed state. Humans can only go to heaven when the requirements of 1 Cor. 15:52-53 occur at the rapture/resurrection.

 

[inchrist]

Hi Keras, Where is John at the point of Rev. 7:9? He is in heaven where he is being shown most of his vision. He went up there in Rev. 4:1.

Rev. 4:1-2 - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the SAME throne of Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

And Marcus is correct in his interpretation of John 7. They could not come in their unsaved, unredeemed state. Humans can only go to heaven when the requirements of 1 Cor. 15:52-53 occur at the rapture/resurrection.

No where does it state they are resurrected or raptured....if that is your resurrection and rapture where is the rest of the church? Since we are told the multitude come out of the great tribulation.

Secondly I do not buy the proof positive reliance on Rev 4, simlpy because John is taken to heaven, therefore whatever he sees must be in heaven, this is a false assumption, example can be given if you examine the souls under the altar, therefore they must be in heaven.

The preposition translated under (Greek hypokato) is a strong one, meaning "below" or "beneath" (compare the phrase "under the earth," in distinction from "in heaven" or "on earth," in 5:3, 13

John's choice of words raises sees that the souls he saw under the altar were not in heaven at all, but far below it on earth.

Like wise the great multitude in Rev 7, we dont need to be in heaven to be standing before the throne physically.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.