Amillennialism

[Marcus O'Reillius]

please explain to me exactly where does it state the great multitude are raptured?

Silly rabbit, the bulk of the Great Multitude are not raptured. So to even say that is not true. Thus you ask the impossible so as only to destroy a whole brand of eschatology. Funny thing is, you cannot succeed; you cannot change people's thinking with just your biting non-sequitur.

In merely asking the question, you demonstrate that you are not here for any illumination, but rather are just sharpening your attack upon those who do look forward to the third instance whereby Jesus can legitimately be said to have "saved" the individual who believes in Him.

As Grudem says in his Systematic Theology, those times are:

1. When Jesus laid His Life down for us on the Cross.
2. When the individual comes to believe.
3. And when Jesus either resurrects them from the grave, or lifts those who are (still) alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation) on the Day of the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

What you do is opposite of what Paul says to do.
And I am opposed to any who would seek to destroy as their motive for posting.

As you cannot legitimately critique Pre-Wrath eschatology, if your eschatology is so attractive, post on how it is substantiated ~ and I will be more than happy to demonstrate all its inconsistencies with Scripture.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I do not buy the proof positive reliance on Rev 4, simlpy because John is taken to heaven, therefore whatever he sees must be in heaven, this is a false assumption,

It is not false which is in Scripture.

It is stated in the fourth and fifth chapters of the book of Revelation.

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

First of all, gentle reader, keras, the self-appointed messenger, misses the break in John's vision - and there are many breaks in the book of Revelation, just as there are many different visions, or views of the multi-faceted action which is accomplished in the end-times among Revelation's many, parallel accounts - is that this vision of the Great Multitude happens AFTER THESE THINGS.

What things? Why the previous vision of the 144,000, which in the detailed, parallel account of the one 'seven' (chps 13-16) we find with Jesus, who is standing ON the earth, before the very Harvest which results in the Great Multitude being arrayed BEFORE the Father. So there is a CHANGE OF VENUE. Now for more on that.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Remember: this vision which happens after the 144,000 are sealed on the earth includes: the throne of God, the Lamb, Angels who encircle the Elders and the Four Living Creatures.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Where have we seen them before?[/SIZE]

CHAPTER 4
Scene in Heaven
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty- four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty- four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

John is IN HEAVEN when he sees the Father upon the Throne. And the 24 Elders.

Rev 4:6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.

Well, lo and behold! The four Living Creatures are also IN HEAVEN!

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

Hallelujah! Jesus is there too - IN HEAVEN - just like He said He'd be in John 7:34 and 14:2-4. What about the Angels? Aren't they only on the earth?

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

SO! The THRONE of GOD, The LAMB, the 24 ELDERS, the FOUR LIVING CREATURES, and ALL the ANGELS in verse 7:9-11 ARE IN HEAVEN!

John's vision of the Great Multitude is IN HEAVEN.

Scripture refutes you.

Your take is no more supported than rabbi keras' mistaken messages.

 

[inchrist]

Silly rabbit, the bulk of the Great Multitude are not raptured. So to even say that is not true. Thus you ask the impossible so as only to destroy a whole brand of eschatology. Funny thing is, you cannot succeed; you cannot change people's thinking with just your biting non-sequitur.

In merely asking the question, you demonstrate that you are not here for any illumination, but rather are just sharpening your attack upon those who do look forward to the third instance whereby Jesus can legitimately be said to have "saved" the individual who believes in Him.

As Grudem says in his Systematic Theology, those times are:

• When Jesus laid His Life down for us on the Cross.
• When the individual comes to believe.
• And when Jesus either resurrects them from the grave, or lifts those who are (still) alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation) on the Day of the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

What you do is opposite of what Paul says to do.
And I am opposed to any who would seek to destroy as their motive for posting.

As you cannot legitimately critique Pre-Wrath eschatology, if your eschatology is so attractive, post on how it is substantiated ~ and I will be more than happy to demonstrate all its inconsistencies with Scripture.

Please spare me your contradictions...you attack others but heaven forbide anyone expose your false antichrist nonsense. Even Christ lost his temper with pharasies.


Now I asked where is your evidence the rapture is in Rev 7:9?

 

[inchrist]

It is not false which is in Scripture.

It is stated in the fourth and fifth chapters of the book of Revelation.




Scripture refutes you.

Your take is no more supported than rabbi keras' mistaken messages.

Again do you not understand the greek proposition?

 

[inchrist]

As you cannot legitimately critique Pre-Wrath eschatology, if your eschatology is so attractive, post on how it is substantiated ~ and I will be more than happy to demonstrate all its inconsistencies with Scripture.

Yes I can its in complete violation of Gods ordained biblical feasts that gives the order of our wedding.

Its also in complete violation of a number not one but a host of prophetic templates given in the OT one of them being the battle of Jericho

Debated with you a number of times you lack any knowledge when it comes to hebrew idionisms found in Revelation, you also seem to lack complete knowledge of christs parables concerning his return.

And more damaging you lack understanding of the mystery of God that is to be completed in the 7th trumpet Rev 10:7

And lastly which is the most obvious neither prewrath and pretribs can actually boast a literal resurrection and rapture in your eschatology

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Again inchrist, your attack style is all bluster and bravado and lacking any substance whatsoever.

When I or Trekson provide Scripture which directly refutes what you allege you neither correct yourself nor lend valid support to your vapid contentions.

You merely play the role of destroyer and will muddy the water with whatever cockamamie theory you believe is true only because you think it.

So you resort to ad hominem attacks, which is as much a fallacy in argument as your non-sequitur inferences.

 

[inchrist]

Again inchrist, your attack style is all bluster and bravado and lacking any substance whatsoever.

When I or Trekson provide Scripture which directly refutes what you allege you neither correct yourself nor lend valid support to your vapid contentions.

You merely play the role of destroyer and will muddy the water with whatever cockamamie theory you believe is true only because you think it.

So you resort to ad hominem attacks, which is as much a fallacy in argument as your non-sequitur inferences.

Please stop trying to play a sweet little victim here...if you cant handle people attacking your doctrine why do you do it to others? See remember this is where I told you...you can dish it out but you cant handle it back...case in point???

Again let me repeat do you not inderstand the greek proposition concerning the souls under the altar?

Further I gave you a whole host of issues you need to get over so ask again where is it illustrated the Rev 7:9 is the rapture?

If my theory is cockamamie ... Then lets start with the easiest, the prophetic template of jericho and rev 10:7 regarding the mystery of God is completed.

Again where is your literal resurrection? Hate to point out the obvious

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

"at-in-christ" is simply not worth the effort with which to respond. He is not a serious scholar, indeed, he is not a scholar at all.

But along with the false messenger keras, at-in-christ completes a great dastardly duo with which to spread the message of destruction against those who hope as Paul says we are to do in the Rapture, which IS in his writing to the Thessalonians.

Seriously folk, you want to know a false test? Try finding the word "rapture" anywhere in the book of Revelation. So to ask for where it is, is actually just a low and mean manner of attack by an inferior trying to bait anyone into his silly little trap.

You simply cannot expect to harvest any serenity throwing pearls to swine. Unfortunately there are lost causes in the world, and you can't fix stupid no matter how much you would want to try.

 

[inchrist]

"at-in-christ" is simply not worth the effort with which to respond. He is not a serious scholar, indeed, he is not a scholar at all.

But along with the false messenger keras, at-in-christ completes a great dastardly duo with which to spread the message of destruction against those who hope as Paul says we are to do in the Rapture, which IS in his writing to the Thessalonians.

Seriously folk, you want to know a false test? Try finding the word "rapture" anywhere in the book of Revelation. So to ask for where it is, is actually just a low and mean manner of attack by an inferior trying to bait anyone into his silly little trap.

You simply cannot expect to harvest any serenity throwing pearls to swine. Unfortunately there are lost causes in the world, and you can't fix stupid no matter how much you would want to try.

Lets see im reading im reading....nope nothing here that refutes my postion...just more antichrist vial....from a Pharisee

As explain neither you nor the pretribs can boast a literal resurrection and rapture in your eschatology....thats a little damning to say the least...

Where as my eschatology does....two witnesses

 

[inchrist]

"at-in-christ" is simply not worth the effort with which to respond. He is not a serious scholar, indeed, he is not a scholar at all.

But along with the false messenger keras, at-in-christ completes a great dastardly duo with which to spread the message of destruction against those who hope as Paul says we are to do in the Rapture, which IS in his writing to the Thessalonians.

Seriously folk, you want to know a false test? Try finding the word "rapture" anywhere in the book of Revelation. So to ask for where it is, is actually just a low and mean manner of attack by an inferior trying to bait anyone into his silly little trap.

You simply cannot expect to harvest any serenity throwing pearls to swine. Unfortunately there are lost causes in the world, and you can't fix stupid no matter how much you would want to try.

By the way Marcus just a little tip...perhaps start learning hebrew eschatology than the western concept of eschatology...hmmm?

Perhaps start with this Tribulation 10 days....this is what is called a Hebrew idionism...

 

[inchrist]

"at-in-christ" is simply not worth the effort with which to respond. He is not a serious scholar, indeed, he is not a scholar at all.

But along with the false messenger keras, at-in-christ completes a great dastardly duo with which to spread the message of destruction against those who hope as Paul says we are to do in the Rapture, which IS in his writing to the Thessalonians.

Seriously folk, you want to know a false test? Try finding the word "rapture" anywhere in the book of Revelation. So to ask for where it is, is actually just a low and mean manner of attack by an inferior trying to bait anyone into his silly little trap.

You simply cannot expect to harvest any serenity throwing pearls to swine. Unfortunately there are lost causes in the world, and you can't fix stupid no matter how much you would want to try.

See marcus here is another hebrew idionism

Let me break it down for you

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Notice the hebrew idionsims:

1. The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord

2. The time has come for judging the dead,

3. for destroying those who destroy the earth

Do you know what feast this hebrew idionisms belong to?

Heres a hint...it involved two witnesses prior.

Do you know what this feast most famous idionism is?

 

[keras]

Hi Keras, Where is John at the point of Rev. 7:9? He is in heaven where he is being shown most of his vision. He went up there in Rev. 4:1.

Rev. 4:1-2 - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is the SAME throne of Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

And Marcus is correct in his interpretation of John 7. They could not come in their unsaved, unredeemed state. Humans can only go to heaven when the requirements of 1 Cor. 15:52-53 occur at the rapture/resurrection.

Correct: John is in heaven, viewing events on earth.
But as I have pointed out before, Heaven is in another dimension and can be anywhere or everywhere to us. Ezekiel saw heaven when he was standing by the river Kebar.
The vast multitude of Rev 7:9-14 are in earthly Jerusalem, holding palm branches grown locally. They are those faithful Christians who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Those Christian believers will see Jesus, just as we are told they would in 2 Thess 1:10. The Return in glory to reign for 1000 years comes at least 10-15 years later.
This fits with all the OT prophesies saying how the Lord will gather His people soon after His Day of wrath and settle them into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31

John 7? I see in verse 34, Jesus says: where I go you cannot come. Humans never go to live in heaven, yes we must eventually get eternal bodies, but they will still be for living on earth, where God will be also. Rev 20:1-4

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, Well, I hope you and Marcus are enjoying yourselves although a little less vitriol on both sides should be considered.

You wrote: “Nowhere does it state they are resurrected or raptured....if that is your resurrection and rapture where is the rest of the church? Since we are told the multitude come out of the great tribulation.”

Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

You are correct in observing that the verse doesn’t state that fact implicitly, however, with the use of the phrase “I beheld and lo” it does seem to imply that they seemed to appear there suddenly as he hadn’t noticed them before. Since the multitude is so great that “no man could could number” what makes you think part of the church is missing? The great trib is simply the last thing they were experiencing before they were raptured. In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

You wrote: “Secondly I do not buy the proof positive reliance on Rev 4, simlpy because John is taken to heaven, therefore whatever he sees must be in heaven, this is a false assumption, example can be given if you examine the souls under the altar, therefore they must be in heaven.
The preposition translated under (Greek hypokato) is a strong one, meaning "below" or "beneath" “

I think John is giving an accurate description. They can still be “in heaven” and below the altar at the same time. Why would you think otherwise?

You also wrote: “Like wise the great multitude in Rev 7, we dont need to be in heaven to be standing before the throne physically.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”

Well, yes, while we can approach the throne of God with faith in the present, that doesn’t mean we won’t stand before the throne in the physical, in the future which this prophecy is depicting. Your Heb. 4 example clarifies this but it certainly does NOT imply that we are approaching the throne “physically”. We would actually have to be in heaven to do this. Remember in this part of Revelation, this isn’t Christ’s throne, He is sitting at the right hand. This is the throne of God the Father!

 

[keras]

In post #93, Marcus quoted Revelation 7:9 After these things......
​​He says the denotes a change in venue from on earth, where the 144,000 are, to heaven, where he wrongly thinks the 'vast multitude' are.

Firstly, his quote is wrong; Rev 7:9 After this, I beheld.....KJV Rev 7:0 After that, I looked....REB NOT After these things !!!
This intro simply denotes the next item John had to write about, if there was a change of location from where the 144,000 were to where the great crowd stood, John would have noted it. Anyway it is obvious that the 144, 000 are selected out of the crowd, who are all the Lord's righteous Christian people.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

In post #93, Marcus quoted Revelation 7:9 After these things......
​​He says the denotes a change in venue from on earth, where the 144,000 are, to heaven, where he wrongly thinks the 'vast multitude' are.

Talk about dense.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God...

In chapters 4 & 5, John is taken up TO HEAVEN, where he sees THE FATHER on the THRONE, the LAMB, the 24 ELDERS, the FOUR LIVING CREATURES, and millions of ANGELS.

John sees the Scroll produced by the FATHER who sits upon the THE THRONE, given to the LAMB.
The LAMB opens up the Scroll by breaking its Seals.
When the sixth Seal is broken - John sees what is happening on the whole earth. John is not ON the earth. However, he sees the whole of it. Only by NOT BEING ON IT, can he see ALL OF IT.

Like what John sees when He is translated TO HEAVEN:
The Great Multitude is BEFORE THE THRONE.
The Great Multitude is BEFORE THE LAMB.
The Angels in the scene are AROUND THE THRONE,
- and AROUND THE ELDERS,
- and AROUND THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES.

JOHN NEVER LEAVES HEAVEN.
The Great Multitude are IN HEAVEN.

I mean to deny this is a fact is to deny Scripture. Now what kind of poor prophet does that?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hi InChrist, Well, I hope you and Marcus are enjoying yourselves although a little less vitriol on both sides should be considered.

Trekson, he's followed me over to here stalking me because he got in trouble at Worthy Christian's website for sending me threatening messages.

 

[Trekson]

Keras, imo, you're wrong about most things but time will tell, Marcus, good job explaining things in your last post. If what you say about InChrist is true ask the powers that be to monitor him for a while and if he holds true to form, it will show.

 

[keras]

Keras, imo, you're wrong about most things but time will tell, Marcus, good job explaining things in your last post..

Just where the multitude of Rev 7:9 are, isn't stated in that verse. The previous verses are describing earthly events and the palm branches those people are holding denotes earthly things. Only those with a pre-trib rapture belief must place them in heaven. This seriously bad false teaching is totally refuted by Jesus. John 3:13, John 8:21 +
But the proof is in other scriptures:
Revelation 5:9-10 ....by Your blood, You bought for God people from every tribe, race, nation and language, [Christians] they will be priests and shall reign on earth.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 I am coming to gather people of every tongue, to My holy mountain: in Jerusalem, [Christians] they will see My glory. [2 Thess 1:10] Some I shall send to the nations to proclaim the coming Kingdom, [the 144,000].....and some I shall take as priests in the Temple.
Never make the mistake of thinking all the amazing prophesies about the restoration of Israel and the Land, applies to the Jews. WE Christians ARE the Israel of God, Gal 6:16, and all the promises to His people are to US.

​Our destiny is not to twiddle our thumbs in heaven, no: all true Christians will go to live in the holy Land, I could post pages of prophesies about that; and we have work to do here.

As for monitoring fellow member InChrist, what about the really disgusting and rude accusations by Marcus?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Just where the multitude of Rev 7:9 are, isn't stated in that verse.

Yes it is.

They are standing before the Throne.

Really now...

 

[inchrist]

Keras, imo, you're wrong about most things but time will tell, Marcus, good job explaining things in your last post. If what you say about InChrist is true ask the powers that be to monitor him for a while and if he holds true to form, it will show.

No Marcus does tend to lie abit, though its true i sent him a private message which stated you can dish it out but you cant handle it back.....is hardly a threatining message...I have issues with false teachers and will expose them...Marcus is one of them