Amillennialism

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, Thank you for a shorter question as they are much easier to answer with my schedule at the moment. Before I reply to Post #134, I want to respond to your Post #137 to Marcus as they tie in together. You wrote: “you just said after the great tribulation the whole point of your argument is the great tribulation is shortened for the elects so they don’t endure the entire length of the great tribulation....sooooo how is the great tribulation shortened from 1260 days?”

My answer to this would be that the length of the great trib is not provided in the bible so those who consider the latter part of the 70th week to be the great trib, err in my opinion. In fact there isn’t even a passage in the bible that says there is a seven year tribulation period. That idea is man-made. Yes, there is a seven year period coming we know as Daniel’s 70th week but to consider the whole of it to be “tribulation” is a misnomer.

You also said: “By the way 1th 3:13 are angels not dead christians perhaps you need to study Lazarus and the rich man a little bit more.”

Actually, there isn’t a single time in the NT that I can think of where the word ‘saints” refers to angels. It is overwhelmingly used to describe Christians.


Post 134 You asked: using this verse: Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” “Ok....then answer this for me, Pre-wraths have the following order, you have the great tribulation then after that comes the shaken of heaven and stars falling then the sign of the son of man then the son of man appears then the rapture....so where exactly has the great tribulation been shortened? As both you and all other flesh is still here to witness the cosmic signs that occur after the great tribulation before Christ appears?”

I added the emboldened part above to complete the cycle for the question. Marcus and I, although both pre-wrath, don’t agree on everything and that’s ok. The timing of the great trib is one of them. As explained earlier, the word “midst” does not imply the exact middle of the 70th week. That’s why I believe, time-wise, that the abomination of desolation will occur quite early in the time of the 70th week. Most likely within the first year. I also think that whatever prophecies that speak of a 1260 day time period, whatever the last ones are will end at least a few months before the end of the 70th week as there are several other prophecies that must take place before the Second Coming that will take some time to fulfill.


Another factor is that no one knows for sure if ALL of the seven seals are within the context of the 70th week. Most folks just assume they are, mostly because they falsely believe they are part of God’s wrath.

The major thing you need to understand is that in pre-wrath eschatology the great trib consists of one thing and one thing alone and that is the mass murder of Christians on a global scale that will dwarf the Holocaust. That is ALL the great trib is! THAT is why we believe it will be shortened; so that there will be some CHRISTIAN flesh saved to BE raptured per the promises of Thess. and 1 Co. 15. I also believe this will be at the same time as the apostasy as many who call themselves christians will decide that they love their lives more than death instead of the other way around as the bible instructs us. It really has nothing to do with any 70th week context time periods prophesied.

So will non-believers be around to see the signs of the 6th seal? Of course, that’s how they know the wrath of God is about to begin per the last verses of Rev. 6. It’s Luke 21:28 that tells us that after the signs of Luke 21:25, we are to “look up for our redemption (rapture) draweth nigh” So as you see, we believe these signs are at the beginning of the 70th week, give or take, and not the end! You don’t see it that way simply because for some strange reason you don’t believe in the scriptures that speak of this promise of what we call the rapture!

Post 135 – You wrote: “Doesn’t shock me but I am interested to hear who you think the bride is”

Do you want the short version or the long one?

 

[inchrist]

. In fact there isn’t even a passage in the bible that says there is a seven year tribulation period. That idea is man-made.

I agree with this. We have some common ground here.

Actually, there isn’t a single time in the NT that I can think of where the word ‘saints” refers to angels. It is overwhelmingly used to describe Christians.

Well actually the correct wording is holy ones.

In Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians he again refers to the angels as coming with the Lord when Christ is revealed from heaven.

… and give relief to you who are troubled and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7).

So if this is the final advent of Christ then where is the dead in Christ that is meant to be with Christ?

If you look here in 2 Th 1:8 we see Christ has come bent on punshement

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Where is the dead in christ?

The major thing you need to understand is that in pre-wrath eschatology the great trib consists of one thing and one thing alone and that is the mass murder of Christians on a global scale that will dwarf the Holocaust. That is ALL the great trib is! THAT is why we believe it will be shortened; so that there will be some CHRISTIAN flesh saved to BE raptured per the promises of Thess. and 1 Co. 15. I also believe this will be at the same time as the apostasy as many who call themselves christians will decide that they love their lives more than death instead of the other way around as the bible instructs us. It really has nothing to do with any 70th week context time periods prophesied.

Sure, however prewrath is based on speculation and assumptions....instead of recurring patterns in scripture.

Lets ignore the antichrist for a minute and lets rather focus on Christ and his ministery.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off

Christ ministry of a full week is left incomplete

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Christ alone fulfilled the first part of his 1 seven, however there is a latter part that still needs to be completed to his first bride in order to compkete the one 7

Ive already explained a template is found in Jacob and Leah and Rachel, Jacob who is a prophetic type of Christ worked 7 years before marrying Leah. ( a prophetic type of the christian church/ house of Ephraim)

The entire purpose of the 2 witnesses is to complete the latter half of the one seven.

Now we can found common ground, that the great tribulation ends at the cosmic signs....I actually happen to believe prewraths have that bit right atleast.

From the commencement of the cosmic signs, the 2 witnesses begin their 3.5 yr ministry of the latter half of christs ministry of the one seven and effectively ending at the 7th trumpet.

Once Christ ministry is fully completed to his bride, then he can only resurrect and rapture her.

Lot is another prophetic pattern, two angels physically escorted Lot out of Sodom.

If wr look at another prophetic pattern we see it again teo spies physically escorting Rahab out (who herself was a gentile believer) of Jericho.

Not surprising we see this same pattern again with the two witnesses in Rev who must escort the church out of the beast world.

It really comes as no surprise that from the moment the two witnesses are killed we have a literal physical resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses, within a 3 day proximity of the 7th trumpet we have surprise suprise hebrew idioms of Rosh Hashanah.

In order for the church to be resurrected and raptured they must be escoted out by a resurrected and raptured 2 witnesses.

Prewraths do not have an escort for the church, you guys simply do not follow given patterns regarding this nature.

Further prewraths have no understanding on what the mystery of God that is completed at the 7th trumpet.

Yet this mystery is the actual rapture and resurrection.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52).

All the patterns fit. There is no need for assumptions or speculations.

In fact you guys are even going so far as to take the testimonials from the wicked as if they know what the. Day of Lords wrath is? How would they even begin to know?

Back to the great tribulation being shortened

Prewraths have taken an obscure meaning and simply just ran with it...as you said this is the most single important aspect of the prewrath. When 1260 days is the actuall amount shortend if it carried on after 1260 certianly no saint would be alive or any other flesh who have not taken the mark of the beast and all other flesh. Thr impact of this does actually affect both parties involved.

There is no factual evidence the time cut short is intended to be less than 1260 days when the time 1260 is the actual amount it was cut short to.

Prewraths rely on the wicked witnesses for testamonials of the day of Lords wrath....when the wicked themselves dont even know what the day of the Lord is.

Prewraths ignore on given prophetic patterns already established in scripture

. It’s Luke 21:28 that tells us that after the signs of Luke 21:25, we are to “look up for our redemption (rapture) draweth nigh” So as you see, we believe these signs are at the beginning of the 70th week, give or take, and not the end! You don’t see it that way simply because for some strange reason you don’t believe in the scriptures that speak of this promise of what we call the rapture!

Ive mentioned Rosh Hashanah alot.....this tells me prewraths are extremely unfamiliar with Hebrew feasts....I the biggest issues with prewrath is its a western eschatological approach and not a hebrew eschatological approach....its like taking the american civil war and interpreting it with the African contianent


Luke 21:25 - 28 fits exactly from the sixth seal all the way to the 7th trumpet.....cosmic signs are still active during that entire length. In fact the 2 witnesses play a huge part with all of that.

Do you want the short version or the long one?

Im cool with whatever you are comfortable with

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, First we have to clarify something regarding this passage. Dan. 9:26-27: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ( this was the crucifixion and ends Christ as a topic in this passage) and the people of the prince ( these are the conscripted soldiers in the Roman army that were from lands surrounding Jerusalem in 70 ad) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he (now we are leaping to the latter days and it is speaking of a future prince that will become the a/c, NOT Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (Israel, the 70th week) and in the midst of the week (sometime within the context of that 70th week) he (the antichrist) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (something that the aforementioned covenant re-instated) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (words in parenthesis mine)

You said: "Christ alone fulfilled the first part of his 1 seven, however there is a latter part that still needs to be completed to his first bride in order to complete the one 7"

Christ did not complete any part of that one 70th week because the prophecy was NOT about Him!

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, You wrote: "In Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians he again refers to the angels as coming with the Lord when Christ is revealed from heaven.… and give relief to you who are troubled and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7).

So of this is the final advent of Christ then where is the dead in Christ that is meant to be with Christ?

If you look here in 2 Th 1:8 we see Christ has come bent on punishment."

Well, yes, here the word "angels" is used and not saints, however this may not be what you're thinking of. Prewrath doesn't believe in a "secret" rapture. We believe that the world will see the signs of His coming, that is why the evil ones in Rev. 6:17, know what is coming. But the a/c deceives them with a lie. He will have several lies, not just one, or they just plain go into denial and further rebellion as Rev. 9:20-21 shows.

The word above is "revealed" not coming. I believe this is the picture we are given in Matt. 24:30. The angels being spoken of are those with the seven trumpets and seven vials. This is not the final advent, this is His coming for the church both the dead and living members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, You wrote: "If we look at another prophetic pattern we see it again the spies physically escorting Rahab out (who herself was a gentile believer) of Jericho."

I'm sorry but the OT examples you offer are NOT patterns of anything prophetic, they are just truthful stories.

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, You wrote: "In Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians he again refers to the angels as coming with the Lord when Christ is revealed from heaven.… and give relief to you who are troubled and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7).
So of this is the final advent of Christ then where is the dead in Christ that is meant to be with Christ?
If you look here in 2 Th 1:8 we see Christ has come bent on punishment."

Well, yes, here the word "angels" is used and not saints, however this may not be what you're thinking of. Prewrath doesn't believe in a "secret" rapture. We believe that the world will see the signs of His coming, that is why the evil ones in Rev. 6:17, know what is coming. But the a/c deceives them with a lie. He will have several lies, not just one, or they just plain go into denial and further rebellion as Rev. 9:20-21 shows.

Yes I have no doubt the world will see and feel the signs of his coming, however they do not know the signs of his coming, how cpuld they possibly know they dont have the holy spirit indwelt in them to even understand.

The phrase " your wrath has come" is also found in Rev 11:18 aka the 7th trumpet


Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Prewraths are relying to much on the testimonials of sinners to know the difference between the wrath of God and God being slow to anger.

Where as in Rev 11:18 we have the witness of an angel declaring the wrath of God has come.

Prewraths credibility rests on sinners to define Gods wrath for them, where as the angel in Rev 11:18 credibility far out weighs that of sinners to know the time of Gods wrath has come yo be the bowls of wrath.

Further complications arise for 1 Th 4:16 states unequivocally the dead in christ will rise first. There will be no ressurection until the full number of the dead in christ is reached and that includes the two witnesses who died in christ are raised first along with the rest of the dead in christ and only after that, those who are alive will be raptured.

You can not have a resurrection of the dead in christ then later for another group of dead chrisrians and then later another group of dead christians, just so pre tribs and prewraths can have a rapture amongst the dead in christ resurrection. That is not the sequence. Further we place an unfair disadvantage to the dead ( 2 witnesses and other martyers) to the advantage of the living, simply because pretribs and prewrath refuse to wait for all the dead in christ to be ressurected first.

The word above is "revealed" not coming. I believe this is the picture we are given in Matt. 24:30. The angels being spoken of are those with the seven trumpets and seven vials. This is not the final advent, this is His coming for the church both the dead and living members of the Body of Christ.

The Greek language of the New Testament uses three words to describe the return of Christ:
parousia,epiphaneia, and apokalupsis.

Each of these words discribes a slightly different angle of the manner, purpose, beauty, and awe of His coming and Paul used these three words interchangeably in his two epistles.


Here is another example of the word apokalupsis

2 Th 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

At the coming of the lawless one, Lord Jesus will overthrow.

At the appearence of the lawless one.....

At the revealing, unvailing of the lawless one.....

All three greek words describing the same thing, they are interchangeable words.

In all of Christs parousia,epiphaneia, and apokalupsis he comes with angels.

Mark 13:36 &37
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

No where does it say that Christ appears with the dead in Christ, let alone comes with him.

Your self and marcus have taken the orginal word Holy ones in 1Th 3:13 to refer only to saints. Which is not the case. There is no evidence Christ returns with dead saints other than His angels.

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, First we have to clarify something regarding this passage. Dan. 9:26-27: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ( this was the crucifixion and ends Christ as a topic in this passage) and the people of the prince ( these are the conscripted soldiers in the Roman army that were from lands surrounding Jerusalem in 70 ad) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he (now we are leaping to the latter days and it is speaking of a future prince that will become the a/c, NOT Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (Israel, the 70th week) and in the midst of the week (sometime within the context of that 70th week) he (the antichrist) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (something that the aforementioned covenant re-instated) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (words in parenthesis mine)

You said: "Christ alone fulfilled the first part of his 1 seven, however there is a latter part that still needs to be completed to his first bride in order to complete the one 7"

Christ did not complete any part of that one 70th week because the prophecy was NOT about Him!

Daniel 9:26-27 is written in a poetic form, and the way Hebrew poems are written is as follows

Section A (Messiah)
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

Section B (Antichrist)
The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Section A (Messiah)
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

Section B (Antichrist)
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Christ in his 3.5 years ministry fulfilled section A

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, You wrote: "If we look at another prophetic pattern we see it again the spies physically escorting Rahab out (who herself was a gentile believer) of Jericho."

I'm sorry but the OT examples you offer are NOT patterns of anything prophetic, they are just truthful stories.

Not true, in order to understand Gods chosen people (Im refering to believers in Christ here) to inherite the promise kingdom...we need to look at how God promised and dealt with a chosen people (Israelites) inherited the promised land, Israel.

Kingdom of Jericho is a "picture" of the Kingdoms of Earth. Jericho is a beast kingdom. Jericho was not a city it was an actual kingdom, with a king and an army.

The seven marches of the battle of Jericho picture the seven seals described in Revelation. Just as Jericho is encircled seven times on the seventh day, with seven trumpets sounded each time, seven trumpets will sound during the Seventh Seal of the Tribulation. When the Seventh and last Trumpet is sounded, the kingdom of the world will become the Kingdom of the Lord and His Christ (Revelation 11:15).

Which is exactly what happened in the battle if Jericho. Before Joshua and the Israelites go UP into the promised land the beast kingdom of Jericho's wall needed to be destroyed.

Before we can go "UP" into the promised kingdom the beast kingdom of this worlds walls needs to be destroyed.

Infact if I dont put the name of the scriputre here, one can easily think paul stated this

It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up. (Joshua 6:5)

Joshua is a prophetic type of the Messiah.

Rahab is a prophetic type of believers, which is a gentile woman in Israel’s history who comes to faith in the one true God of Israel.

Rahab is not taken out until after the seventh trumpet on the seventh day. By two spies/ two witnesses

 

[Trekson]

Good Morning, InChrist, You wrote: “Yes I have no doubt the world will see and feel the signs of his coming, however they do not know the signs of his coming, how could they possibly know they don’t have the holy spirit indwelt in them to even understand.”

If the church is doing its job they won’t need to have the HS within them to know. The signs will be quite visible. Until the rapture the church is the witness to the world. It is up to us to warn them of these dangers, explain to them the signs and what they mean and to show them the way to salvation. That’s why there is no reason for the church and the two witnesses to be here at the same time!

Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

You wrote: “Prewraths are relying to much on the testimonials of sinners to know the difference between the wrath of God and God being slow to anger. Whereas in Rev 11:18 we have the witness of an angel declaring the wrath of God has come.

Prewraths credibility rests on sinners to define Gods wrath for them, whereas the angel in Rev 11:18 credibility far outweighs that of sinners to know the time of Gods wrath has come yo be the bowls of wrath.”

That’s just not true. We rely upon the word of God. It’s Christ Himself who is telling us that the unsaved world is bearing witness to the knowledge of the coming wrath. The bible is just reporting the facts of the prophesied events. The credibility of the world isn’t a factor in this knowledge at all. All we need to rely on is the credibility of Jesus and the angels tasked to show John the events as they will unfold. BTW, Rev. 11:18 is speaking of the wrath of 'God" that starts in Rev. 16:1. This is separate from the wrath of the "Lamb", which are the trumpet judgments.

You wrote: “Further complications arise for 1 Th 4:16 states unequivocally the dead in christ will rise first. There will be no ressurection until the full number of the dead in christ is reached and that includes the two witnesses who died in christ are raised first along with the rest of the dead in christ and only after that, those who are alive will be raptured.”

All the dead in Christ will be raptured at the same time before the two witnesses arrive on the scene. If you want to be technical, the two witnesses won’t be “in Christ”. Whether you believe them to be Elijah and Enoch, Enoch and Moses or Moses and Elijah, they are all OT figures, (I lean towards the first pairing as they were the only two reportedly not to have died a physical death). Their mission is separate from that of the church as they will be mainly focusing on Israel and the surrounding nations. If there are people who acknowledge Christ because of their ministry, they will either be resurrected for the sheep and goat judgment or because of their delay they may have to wait for the Great White Throne Judgment. Those who think that judgment is ONLY for the unsaved are mistaken.

You wrote: “All three Greek words describing the same thing, they are interchangeable words.”

While they may have similar meanings that doesn’t make them “interchangeable”. Most times biblical words have multiple meanings. That’s where being a Berean and “rightly dividing the word of truth” comes in. We need to study the words and figure out which aspect of its meaning makes the most sense in any given passage. Can Christ “appear” yet not “physically come”? Yes, the scriptures do show that to be true.

Mark 13:36 &37
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

You wrote: “Nowhere does it say that Christ appears with the dead in Christ, let alone comes with him. You and Marcus have taken the original word Holy ones in 1Th 3:13 to refer only to saints. Which is not the case. There is no evidence Christ returns with dead saints other than His angels.”

I know this may be hard for you to understand but there are two aspects to Christ’s return. The one above is referring to His return for the resurrection/rapture. He will NOT set foot on the earth at this time. This description of His return is the same as the one pictured in Acts 1:9-11: “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” It’s possible that Paul didn’t recognize the difference in timing as that is something that has been revealed to the church in the latter days per Dan. 12:4 regarding knowledge of end-time events.

Now when Christ returns to physically touch the earth the description of His arrival is quite different. Rev. 19:11-15: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

Now this is NOT the same description given in the Acts reference. We believe it is this “coming” that Paul is referencing in 1Thess. 3:13, not the “coming” for the rapture. The “armies” and the ‘saints” are both the church.

 

[Trekson]

InChrist, You wrote: “Daniel 9:26-27 is written in a poetic form, and the way Hebrew poems are written is as follows

Section A (Messiah)
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

Section B (Antichrist) Sentence A not a/c but Rome, Sentence B, the a/c
The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Section A (Messiah)
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

Section B (Antichrist)
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Christ in his 3.5 years ministry fulfilled section A.”

I know you want to believe this but it simply doesn’t add up. Your first ‘A” is the END of the 69th week, when Christ is crucified! The second “A” is the 70th week! Christ DID NOT continue ministering for 3 ½ years AFTER His crucifixion. The fact is there is no ABAB, its AbcCC!
[SIZE=12pt]Christ did not fulfill the prophecy of His coming as Messiah at the beginning of His ministry! It was fulfilled at the end just before the crucifixion when He fulfilled Zech.9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.”[/SIZE]

 

[Trekson]

InChrist, You wrote: “Not true, in order to understand Gods chosen people (I’m referring to believers in Christ here) to inherit the promise kingdom...we need to look at how God promised and dealt with a chosen people (Israelites) inherited the promised land, Israel.”

First of all, I do NOT believe in replacement theology. The earthly kingdom is for Israel (the 144,000+) who are just who the bible says they are in Rev. 7 and those who in their human form pass muster during the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25! We have a heavenly kingdom to look forward to. Sure, we’ll be here at various times with many from the church having leadership positions but we will NO LONGER be earth bound creatures.

The author of Hebrews explains it this way: Heb. 10:34 – “For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.” He is speaking of believers here.

Speaking of OT saints, it says this Heb. 11:16 – “But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” The city is of course the NJ, again for the dead or raptured, not an “earthly” kingdom!

The next verse I’ll list shows the combination of OT saints with the church which is the purpose of the NJ and what the groom and bride aspects are all about. Heb. 11:40 – “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

I’m sorry but the rest of your “example” is just pure fantasy.

 

[Wormwood]

I think it is very evident that the NT writers spoke of the early church as true Israel. This is not "replacement" theology. It is fulfillment theology. The church did not "replace" Israel so much as it consisted of true believing Israelites who accepted their Messiah and God's plan to make His people righteous as the Law and Prophets indicated. Gentiles who accepted the Messiah were grafted into this remnant of faithful Israelite believers (and continue to be grafted in by faith today). Paul makes this very clear in Romans 9-11. God's promises have never applied to the faithless and unbelieving. To suggest that God favors a national people apart from faith or submission to the Messiah and King is to undermine everything taught in the NT. In fact, this kind of thinking is the very thing that the Pharisees promoted and the reason they hated Jesus and Paul and ultimately had them killed. They wanted a religion of flesh, not faith. For them, it was about physical circumcision and an earthly throne, not the circumcision of the heart through faith and a heavenly kingdom.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Wormwood, I agree that the faithless and unbelieving will have no part of God's promises but there is no reason not to believe that there will come a time when all that is left of the nation of Israel will be made up of believers to inherit the kingdom. I believe the 144,000 is who will come to their senses to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 12:8-10 - "In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

There are many prophecies about God redeeming Israel and the millennial future they will have. God will arrange things so that the nation He created will one day worship and adore Him as a nation. Yes, we are grafted in but only for while. This opportunity will last only until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. The latter part of Rom. 11 speaks of the restoration of the nation of Israel and no that is not code for the church. The nation of Israel still has a God appointed destiny to fulfill and when it is fulfilled they will all be followers of Christ.

 

[keras]

I think it is very evident that the NT writers spoke of the early church as true Israel. This is not "replacement" theology. It is fulfillment theology. The church did not "replace" Israel so much as it consisted of true believing Israelites who accepted their Messiah and God's plan to make His people righteous as the Law and Prophets indicated. Gentiles who accepted the Messiah were grafted into this remnant of faithful Israelite believers (and continue to be grafted in by faith today). Paul makes this very clear in Romans 9-11. God's promises have never applied to the faithless and unbelieving. To suggest that God favors a national people apart from faith or submission to the Messiah and King is to undermine everything taught in the NT. In fact, this kind of thinking is the very thing that the Pharisees promoted and the reason they hated Jesus and Paul and ultimately had them killed. They wanted a religion of flesh, not faith. For them, it was about physical circumcision and an earthly throne, not the circumcision of the heart through faith and a heavenly kingdom.

This is absolutely correct. There is only one people of God, consisting of event true Christian believer, including Messianic Jews.
The ethnic State of Israel has no further part in the last days, after the Lord's Day of wrath that will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18

This truth makes the 'rapture to heaven" theory impossible and it also means that Christians are the inheritors of all of God's promises to Israel. It is righteous Christians who will live in all of the Promised Land. Psalm 37:29 Some will be there to welcome Jesus back to earth and the rest will be gathered as Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 describe.

 

[inchrist]

That’s just not true. We rely upon the word of God. It’s Christ Himself who is telling us that the unsaved world is bearing witness to the knowledge of the coming wrath. The bible is just reporting the facts of the prophesied events..

Yes & No, look at the opening statement of seal 6 and notice the greek word horaó --- means to see, either physically or spiritually. So John is certainly seeing what Christ wants him to see....however the witness accounts of the sinners is not a statement made by Christ himself.

Let me give you perfect example.

Matthew 16:22
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

Now is that the word of God?

No its not

Matthew 16:22
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

Matthew by the way bearing witness to this event wrote what the holy spirit needed him to write concerning this event.

Its rather fitting, considering you are basing your eschatology on human concerns and not in mind the concerns of God as declared by the angel when the timing of the wrath actually occurs.

Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

All the dead in Christ will be raptured at the same time before the two witnesses arrive on the scene. If you want to be technical,

Im sorry but that is not the case. Rosh Hashanah needed by the two witnesses does not occur in the 6th seal. Nor does this fit with jewish wedding ceremonies where the two witnesses escorts the bride to the groom. Nor does this fit with prophetic templates with Lot being escorted out of Sodom, nor does this fit for with the prophetic template of the Battle of Jericho where Rahab was escorted out of Jericho by two spies. Nor does this fit that the two witnesses died in Christ as they were ressurected for belief in Christ.

The two witnesses are the first not the last to be resurrected. This is the only place of a literal resurrection and rapture, there is non other before this in Revelation.

While they may have similar meanings that doesn’t make them “interchangeable”. Most times biblical words have multiple meanings. That’s where being a Berean and “rightly dividing the word of truth” comes in. We need to study the words and figure out which aspect of its meaning makes the most sense in any given passage. Can Christ “appear” yet not “physically come”? Yes, the scriptures do show that to be true

Context is also key and Paul used all three words interchangeably.

Now this is NOT the same description given in the Acts reference. We believe it is this “coming” that Paul is referencing in 1Thess. 3:13, not the “coming” for the rapture. The “armies” and the ‘saints” are both the church.

Then you have a problem as Paul is borrowing from the prophecy of Zechariah 14: as Holy ones refer to angels or the heavenly assembly ps 89:5,7

What you have done is extended the orginal meaning to dead christians only.

Section B (Antichrist) Sentence A not a/c but Rome, Sentence B, the a/c

Sorry my mistake that actually belongs to section A as Daniel 9:26 still has the prince Messiah in view as per Daniel 9:25

Daniel 9:26 & 27 is written in Hebrew parallelism which is a style of poetic poem's to convey a thought with great force. Daniel 9:27 is a parallel to Daniel 9:26

I know you want to believe this but it simply doesn’t add up. Your first ‘A” is the END of the 69th week, when Christ is crucified! The second “A” is the 70th week! Christ DID NOT continue ministering for 3 ½ years AFTER His crucifixion.

Thats right I dont believe it because its wrong, the 69th week was ended by Christ's baptizm.

Daniel 9:25

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.


The words “unto the Messiah” reveal to us with absolute clarity and certainty to what point in the life-time of Yeshua the Messiah the measure of 69 sevens (483 years) must reach.

The very word Messiah -- means the Anointed

Now when, during the Messiah’s life-time, was he anointed?

It was at the river Jordan where Christ was baptized -- where the holy spirit descended upon him in the shape of a dove. And it was at this time that John the Baptist bore witness to him as the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

As the apostle Peter declared in Acts 10:38: “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and with power.” And from this time on Christ gave himself to his public Messianic ministry.

The 69 of the 70 prophetic weeks were completed at the baptism of Yeshua the Messiah and his manifestation to Israel through the testimony of John the Baptist.

Christ ministry begins the 70th week

First of all, I do NOT believe in replacement theology.

No Trekson its called engrafting theology.

Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.'

I’m sorry but the rest of your “example” is just pure fantasy.

Tell me, is there anything in Prewrath that has the remotest grounding in hebrewism and follows any patterns of God?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Christ ministry begins the 70th week

This is an example of Partial Preterism.

Jesus did not "force" or "prevail by might" ANY limited-time covenant.

The subject of gabar, is determined by the third person singular conjugation of the verb which can be rendered as the pronoun: he.

The pronoun in Hebrew grammar, like English grammar, reverts to the antecedent actor, which in this case is not the Messiah, but the prince who shall come - who is determined in turn by his origin in the people who will destroy the city and the sanctuary: the Romans.

 

[inchrist]

who is determined in turn by his origin in the people who will destroy the city and the sanctuary: the Romans.

Right and this isnt partial preterism?

By the way the pronoun “he” cannot find its antecedent in the noun “people” because it is a plural neuter noun and “he” is a masculine singular pronoun. We find a grammatical dead end

As a historical correction.....the Legions who attacked the jewish temple were of Syrian stock assembled from proxy tribes who had their own kings. So this roman prince could hardly be his people....further your roman prince never gave the order for the destruction of the Temple

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

By the way the pronoun “he” cannot find its antecedent in the noun “people” because it is a plural neuter noun and “he” is a masculine singular pronoun. We find a grammatical dead end

I'm sorry but your error does not dead end what I said.

The "he" implicit in the third person singular finds its source in the antecedent "prince who shall come." Not people... Your lack of understanding and intelligence prevents you from seeing simple facts and has you spinning others in all sorts of directions.

Titus led the attack not Malchus. His six legions were joined by auxiliaries from Malchus. The auxiliary component does not determine the main body, nor does it change history. Those conscripted by Rome to be in her legions were, in the larger part, not from Italy, but from Roman provinces. Still, they were fully Roman just as Americans can be of various hues, nationalities, and ethnic origins.

The King of the North comes from a sea of peoples, and the last fourth component of man's rule over Israel is the iron legs of Rome.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

.further your roman prince never gave the order for the destruction of the Temple

Again this is rather ridiculous: neither I nor Gabriel's prophecy said the "prince who shall come" issues the order to destroy the city and the Sanctuary. I'm not sure with your limited capacity you can read what either I or the Bible says.

It says in simple sentence structural form: "...and the people will destroy the city and the Sanctuary." The prepositional clause modifies those people as being: "of the prince who is to come." Thus, the Romans are the source for the "prince who is to come." The arabs did not destroy the city. That was done on order by Titus over a long time.

It was a Roman soldier who first set fire to the Temple. Despite Titus' orders to the contrary, it was Roman soldiers who, in their blind anger and blood-lust, continued to feed the fire which destroyed the Temple.

The King of the North comes from the fourth terrible beast, and that comes again from the sea. The "sea" points to the Mediterranean and in figurative Biblical form also reverts to Europe as a "sea of peoples."

To try to say the anti-Christ is muslim or arab does not fit other prophecies, and any "spin" some advocate cannot override companion and related verses concerning this end-time figure.

And partial preterism falls flat on its face anytime someone says Jesus is the one who starts the one 'seven' in Daniel 9:27.

 

[inchrist]

I'm sorry but your error does not dead end what I said.

The "he" implicit in the third person singular finds its source in the antecedent "prince who shall come." Not people... Your lack of understanding and intelligence prevents you from seeing simple facts and has you spinning others in all sorts of directions.

My word.....

You stated the following
(who is determined in turn by his origin in the people)

I was addressing that section first of your complaint.
He” is a pronoun which must refer to a specific preceding noun, Prince simply informs us about the “peoples” relationship with him. Not his origins. The prince is not the subject to the sentence.

Now im addressing the second part of your complaint

The word “prince” is an improper antecedent for the pronoun “he” in verse 27.


Traditional grammatical analysis within Daniel 9:26-27 does not unseal the “he” of verse 27. You have no grounds grammatically to dismiss the "he" is not the Messiah nor do I have grounds to prove grammatically the "he" is the Messiah.

This is all a dead end.

So we look at the entire context of Daniels prophecy as well as the poetic style it is written in, as well as scripture with scripture analyses.

Now lets look at Daniel 9:25

Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens

Now pay attention, see im even going to highlight this for you: until the Anointed One, comes , there will be seven sevens and sixth- two sevens.

Notice that 69 is to be completed at the arrival of the anointed one. Because thats exactly what it says.

See from the degree of Cyrus all the way until, now that word until: means as far as, even to, up to, until the messiah comes, that completes the 69, that is the entire measure of the 69.

The very word Messiah -- means the Anointed

Now when, during the Messiah’s life-time, was he anointed and then presented himself to Israel?

The first proclamation of the Messiah, recorded in Mark 1:14-15, -- the 70th week of the prophecy. There can be little doubt about it because it was right at the beginning of that 70th week that the Messiah “came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the gospel.”

What time was fulfilled?

Clearly, the 70th week had now come, for the 69th week had only brought us “until" the Messiah.” That week is the only “time” whose measure had been given in the unfulfilled prophetic scriptures.

Titus led the attack not Malchus.

Still a proxy tribe, there were more
So Vespasian sent his son Titus [who], came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood" (Flavius Josephus, The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars of the Jews or The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem, Book III, Chapter 1, Paragraph 3).

Still, they were fully Roman just as Americans can be of various hues, nationalities, and ethnic origins.

Well lets look at the word people in the verse.
The word people used in Daniel is the Hebrew (am), which is an ethnic denotation. It does not refer to the kingdom or empire that the “people” lived under.



The Strong’s Lexicon lists the meaning of am as: “nation, people or kindred”.

Wilhelm Gesenius, the Hebrew lexiconographer, lists the primary meaning of the word as “single races or tribes, race or family, the kindred, relatives”.

Hebrew scholar Arnold Fruchtenbaum states, “We are dealing here with a bloodline, and not a country”

1900 times the Hebrew word am appears in the King James Version, over 99% of the time, it is translated as “people”.

Only seventeen times is the word translated as “nation”.

If Daniel's purpose of the verse were to highlight the the Roman empire or the nation to which the peoples were under, it could have used several other Hebrew words such as mamlakah (kingdom or empire) or goy (nation).

Then you would have case, but that is not the case, the original meaning of the verse does not allow us to look to the leaders of the peoples, but rather the peoples themselves.

That was done on order by Titus over a long time.

"Titus supposing what the fact was, that the house itself might yet he saved, he came in haste and endeavored to persuade the soldiers to quench the fire…yet were their passions too hard for the regards they had for Caesar, and the dread they had of him who forbade them, as was their hatred of the Jews, and a certain vehement inclination to fight them, too hard for them also…And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar’s approbation" (Josephus, Wars of the Jews)

And partial preterism falls flat on its face anytime someone says Jesus is the one who starts the one 'seven' in Daniel 9:27.

Your lack of reading scripture falls flat, so Im led to ask you the same question I posed to Trekson

is there anything in Prewrath that has the remotest grounding in hebrewism and follows any patterns of God?

I have no doubt you will respond in your morally degenerated fashion, thinking truth comes packaged in such an brankrupt manner.