An article of faith

[Brakelite]

Complete and utter lie. Not logical. Historically not true and can't be proven via Scripture or any historical Christian writing.

What man taught you this?

So who started the Celtic church in Britain? Patrick's grandfather was a presbyter in
that Church. The Celtic church is renowned for converting the pagan tribes of Britain and Ireland, Patrick later playing a major role in that. Who would you like to give the glory to other than Jesus?

 

[Marymog]

First among those who protested against heathen practices in the church was Helvidius I (c. A.D. 250-420 [sic]). It is interesting to note that three of the outstanding opponents of the papal innovations in Latin Christianity were from northern Italy. These were Helvidius, Jovinian, and Vigilantius. As for Helvidius, all that was written by him and for him has been destroyed. Though he lived a century and a half after Justin Martyr and more than a century after Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, and Clement, their writings have been preserved, while his were destroyed. Helvidius belonged to the church which strove to hand down the doctrines of the Bible in the pure form. He is famous for his exposure of Jerome for using corrupted Greek manuscripts in bringing out the Vulgate, the Latin Bible of the Papacy. If the thunders of Jerome had not been turned against Helvidius, we would know less concerning him. “Helvidius, a so-called heresiarch of the fourth century, a layman who opposed the growing superstitions of the church... He was a pupil of Auxentius, bishop of Milan, and the precursor of Jovinian.”
Duchesne points out that Auxentius, for twenty years at the head of the diocese of Milan, was from Asia Minor and impressed on those regions the Syrian leadership in Christianity. Daring in his scholarship, Helvidius accused Jerome, as Jerome himself admits, of using corrupt Greek manuscripts. ⁷That part of the ecclesiastical system of the fourth century, which was peculiarly ascetic and rigid, found an impersonation in Jerome, who exhibited its worst and most repulsive traits in the whole tenor of his life and conversation. Sourness, bitterness, envy, intolerance, and dissatisfaction with every manifestation of sanctity which did not come up to his own standard, had become habitual to him, and were betrayed in almost everything that he wrote, said, or did. Censoriousness, and the spirit of invective, were amongst his most strongly marked failings, and the very best men of the age did not escape his censure.”
The second renowned reformer in north Italy and forerunner of Vigilantius was Jovinian (A.D. 330-390). He was so superior in scholarship that the united attempts of such learned advocates of the Papacy as Jerome, Augustine, and Ambrose failed to overthrow his scriptural and historical arguments. Of him Albert H. Newman says: That the protest of Jovinianus awakened great interest and received influential support is evident from the excited polemics of Jerome, and from the public proceedings that were instituted against him in Rome and Milan.... The persistence of the influence of Jovinianus is seen in the movement led by Vigilantius. It is not unlikely that followers of Jovinianus took refuge in the Alpine valleys, and there kept alive the evangelical teaching that was to reappear with vigor in the twelfth century.” Beuzart relates how a learned French historian speaks of the relentless persecution carried on as late as 1215 by monks against so-called heretics named Jovinianists, Patarines, and Albigenses. Jovinian drew the wrath of Jerome because he taught that the lives of married people, all other things being equal, are fully as acceptable in the sight of God as those who are not married; that eating with thanksgiving is as commendable with God as abstemiousness; and that all who are faithful to their baptismal vows will be equally rewarded at the day of judgment. Because of this, Jerome said that Jovinian had “the hissing of the old serpent,” “nauseating trash,” and “the devil’s poisonous concoction.” Vigilantius was convinced that the new system (as opposed to the diastolic system) of austerities, processions, and sacraments did not result in making men preeminently happy and holy. Vigilantins witnessed too many of the ecclesiastical riots of the day.
When Damasus was elected pope, A.D. 366, the dissentions in Rome were so violent that the gates of the basilica, where his rival was consecrated, were broken open, the roof was torn off, the building was set on fire, and one hundred and thirty-seven persons were killed.” Similar ecclesiastical riots were seen at this time in Palestine. Jerome, in one of his epistles, declares that their private quarrels were as furious as were those of the barbarians.

Clearly neither Helvidius or Jovinian were leading The Church after the last Apostle died which is historically believed to have been John who died around 100AD.

Try again....

 

[Brakelite]

Why did I bring up the fact that you Protestants are still protesting?

No. Why did you bring up the subject of protestant failure... quote...You revolutionaries have recently decided that gay marriage is God approved according to Scripture but abortion isn't. Then the revolutionaries inside that cult broke away and said gay marriage AND abortion is God

I stated I would be honest about protestant failures and you then retorted...

I do not know or care if you will be honest about Protestant failure. That is not what we are discussing.

I thought we were going to be friends. Looks to me like you are only interested in creating controversy and dissembling.

Complete and utter lie. You don't even know Christian history or world history; do you?

I'm lying regarding the Papacy's war against the Bible? Even the most ardent Catholic historians admit this to be true. You really do need to read some wider literature.

 

[Marymog]

So who started the Celtic church in Britain? Patrick's grandfather was a presbyter in
that Church. The Celtic church is renowned for converting the pagan tribes of Britain and Ireland, Patrick later playing a major role in that. Who would you like to give the glory to other than Jesus?

I give the glory to no one for starting a denomination in the 3rd century that deviates from the teachings of The Church.

 

[Marymog]

No. Why did you bring up the subject of protestant failure... quote...You revolutionaries have recently decided that gay marriage is God approved according to Scripture but abortion isn't. Then the revolutionaries inside that cult broke away and said gay marriage AND abortion is God

I stated I would be honest about protestant failures and you then retorted...

I thought we were going to be friends. Looks to me like you are only interested in creating controversy and dissembling.

I'm lying regarding the Papacy's war against the Bible? Even the most ardent Catholic historians admit this to be true. You really do need to read some wider literature.

I mentioned Protestant failure because you presented a false theory. I addressed that false theory in post #221.

I "retorted" because I DO NOT care what twist you will put on Protestant failures. How much clearer can I be?

I should not have said you were lying in regard to the Papacy's war against the Bible. I should have said you clearly don't know your own Christian history. There was no "war against the Bible". That is a fallacy taught to you by your men. Instead of listening to your men read some HISTORY books instead of anti-Catholic blogs.

You made an affirmative statement now back it up with facts: Name one Catholic historian that admits that The Church had a "war against the Bible" and I will read his writings.

 

[Taken]

Complete and utter lie. You don't even know Christian history or world history; do you?

In early Catholic Churches, as bibles were printed, They were put in the churches. Chained to the pews. Some could read. Some could not read.
Attending a church was not “reading time”. It was be quiet and listen time.
Men who could read, wanted to read, but who could not afford a Bible, wanted to take Bibles the Church had, home to read. They were not allowed.

Yes the churches had Bibles, by default of circumstances, men could not read THOSE Bibles, which turned into “Catholic churches kept men from reading Bibles, to Catholic Church’s forbid men from reading Bibles”....
Nothing new of men second, third, hand, over centuries repeating what they heard.

You could have relayed the facts...but it’s more fun to call people liars and leave it at that. You should not be suspect that YOUR Church History is of more interest to you, than non-Catholics.

 

[Taken]

I give the glory to no one for starting a denomination in the 3rd century that deviates from the teachings of The Church.

Gentiles hijacking Christ’s Church and making it the Catholic Church, is your prerogative to follow and other men’s prerogative to NOT follow, but rather stay according to God Word and Christ’s Church established by Christ and promoted by Jews.

 

[Brakelite]

Clearly neither Helvidius or Jovinian were leading The Church after the last Apostle died which is historically believed to have been John who died around 100AD.

Try again....

Oh. You wanted the names of some who were leading the Catholic Church into apostasy after the 1st century? I thought you meant leading the true church after the 1st century. I would have to do a little research into who was responsible for introducing pagan practise into your church. For example, which Pope introduced these occult symbols into the Vatican front garden?

Who introduced Sunday sacredness, the pagan day of the sun so popular with the Roman Mithraists which borrowed it from Persia,? Who introduced this practise...?? I don't know.

 

[Marymog]

Gentiles hijacking Christ’s Church and making it the Catholic Church, is your prerogative to follow and other men’s prerogative to NOT follow, but rather stay according to God Word and Christ’s Church established by Christ and promoted by Jews.

And it is your prerogative to follow the men you follow....sooooo what's your point?

BTW...What men do you follow? Baptists? Lutheran? SDA? Mormon?

 

[Brakelite]

I give the glory to no one for starting a denomination in the 3rd century that deviates from the teachings of The Church.

Right there is your problem. It was the Catholic Church which deviated from scripture, thus forming a new denomination called the Papacy.

 

[Marymog]

Oh. You wanted the names of some who were leading the Catholic Church into apostasy after the 1st century? I thought you meant leading the true church after the 1st century. I would have to do a little research into who was responsible for introducing pagan practise into your church. For example, which Pope introduced these occult symbols into the Vatican front garden?View attachment 23704

Who introduced Sunday sacredness, the pagan day of the sun so popular with the Roman Mithraists which borrowed it from Persia,? Who introduced this practise...?? I don't know.

Got it....You can't back up your statements. I knew you couldn't but I thought I would give you a chance.

Thank you for your time.....

 

[Marymog]

Right there is your problem. It was the Catholic Church which deviated from scripture, thus forming a new denomination called the Papacy.

Ok....That is what YOU have been taught by your men. And that my friend is YOUR problem.

 

[Brakelite]

Your theory makes no sense Brakelite.

Here are the facts: The Protestant revolutionaries broke away from The Church 500 years ago to start their own churches with their own doctrines because they believed that The Church was not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Then the men that were following those revolutionaries had a revolution of their own and broke away from them because they believed that the original revolutionaries were not being guided by the Holy Spirit. This revolutionary cycle (in general historical terms for sake of argument) has continued for 500+ years! There is no, as your theory suggest, a "coming closer together over time through the leading of that same Spirit". Christianity is imploding because of all you revolutionaries who keep saying things like you said in your above post. Everyone else is wrong and Iam right!

If it is "coming closer together" which direction is it going Brakelite? Back to the oldest Orthodox/Catholic teachings of The Church? No, it is not, so your theory has been debunked.

Facts? The protestant church were broken away because the Catholic leadership refused to hear them. Luther had valid concerns regarding the greed and corrupt practise of demanding money for the salvation of souls... Indulgences. Money that paid for the basilica in Rome. So Luther didn't break away... He was thrown out. And there was nothing wrong with his biblical exegesis that rediscovered the biblical truth of Salvation by faith that had become buried under centuries of superstition and flagellation and crawling on knees and other ridiculous practises that were human attempts at self glorification and did nothing toward the teaching of that gospel.
Other truths were rediscovered by later reformers. Truths like baptism... The priesthood of all believers... Righteousness by faith... Sola scriptura... And the worst was the amalgamation of church and state to persecute heretics... Using force and armies instead of the gospel. The problem with protestantism is that the older reformers refused to accept the later revelations and persecuted those who taught them.
One by one, the truths were re-established in God’s church, and those truths broadcast and taught throughout the world.

In the 1300s John Wycliffe, ‘The Morning Star of the Reformation’, translated the scriptures into the common tongue. His followers and supporters were called the Lollards. In their day, they were considered a cult, and were persecuted relentlessly by the established church.

In the 1400s Martin Luther restored the truth of salvation by faith only. He restores the sacrifice of grace. Luther and his followers, the Lutherans, were considered a cult by those of his day, and were persecuted.

In the 1500s John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterians, has a great burden for prayer. He railed against the rote prayers of the established church… In the day,Presbyterians were considered a cult; they were also persecuted, by the Lutherans.

In the 1600s God raised up a man by the name of John Smith. Smith restored the truth of baptism by immersion. His followers were known as Baptists…in their day they were considered a cult, and were persecuted by the Lutherans and the Presbyterians.

In the 1700s John Wesley founded the Methodists. John Wesley had a great burden for evangelism: for letting the light of the gospel to shine…he preached from one end of the country to another, and even to the United States. The Methodists were considered a cult and were persecuted by the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, and the Baptists.

I'm the 1800s the Seventh Day Adventists brought back the law of God which the Papacy had ridden underfoot and obliterated by removing the second commandment and desecrating the 4th.

All these truths were reflections of the furniture of the OT sanctuary which had been replaced by a counterfeit in catholicism along with a counterfeit priesthood. Now it's time that those truths were brought together. That will not be ecumenism. It will be the restoration of apostolic Christianity.

 

[Marymog]

Facts? The protestant church were broken away because the Catholic leadership refused to hear them. Luther had valid concerns regarding the greed and corrupt practise of demanding money for the salvation of souls... Indulgences. Money that paid for the basilica in Rome. So Luther didn't break away... He was thrown out. And there was nothing wrong with his biblical exegesis that rediscovered the biblical truth of Salvation by faith that had become buried under centuries of superstition and flagellation and crawling on knees and other ridiculous practises that were human attempts at self glorification and did nothing toward the teaching of that gospel.
Other truths were rediscovered by later reformers. Truths like baptism... The priesthood of all believers... Righteousness by faith... Sola scriptura... And the worst was the amalgamation of church and state to persecute heretics... Using force and armies instead of the gospel. The problem with protestantism is that the older reformers refused to accept the later revelations and persecuted those who taught them.
One by one, the truths were re-established in God’s church, and those truths broadcast and taught throughout the world.

In the 1300s John Wycliffe, ‘The Morning Star of the Reformation’, translated the scriptures into the common tongue. His followers and supporters were called the Lollards. In their day, they were considered a cult, and were persecuted relentlessly by the established church.

In the 1400s Martin Luther restored the truth of salvation by faith only. He restores the sacrifice of grace. Luther and his followers, the Lutherans, were considered a cult by those of his day, and were persecuted.

In the 1500s John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterians, has a great burden for prayer. He railed against the rote prayers of the established church… In the day,Presbyterians were considered a cult; they were also persecuted, by the Lutherans.

In the 1600s God raised up a man by the name of John Smith. Smith restored the truth of baptism by immersion. His followers were known as Baptists…in their day they were considered a cult, and were persecuted by the Lutherans and the Presbyterians.

In the 1700s John Wesley founded the Methodists. John Wesley had a great burden for evangelism: for letting the light of the gospel to shine…he preached from one end of the country to another, and even to the United States. The Methodists were considered a cult and were persecuted by the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, and the Baptists.

I'm the 1800s the Seventh Day Adventists brought back the law of God which the Papacy had ridden underfoot and obliterated by removing the second commandment and desecrating the 4th.

All these truths were reflections of the furniture of the OT sanctuary which had been replaced by a counterfeit in catholicism along with a counterfeit priesthood. Now it's time that those truths were brought together. That will not be ecumenism. It will be the restoration of apostolic Christianity.

I looks like you agree with and even gave a timeline affirming my statement that The Protestant revolutionaries broke away from The Church 500 years ago to start their own churches with their own doctrines because they believed that The Church was not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Then the men that were following those revolutionaries had a revolution of their own and broke away from them because they believed that the original revolutionaries were not being guided by the Holy Spirit. This revolutionary cycle (in general historical terms for sake of argument) has continued for 500+ years!

AND that your theory that Christianity is "coming closer together over time through the leading of that same Spirit" is not a valid theory!

 

[Marymog]

Who introduced Sunday sacredness, .

Scripture.....and the first 155 years of Christian historical writings that show that Christians practiced what Scripture taught:

The Didache
“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

You deny Scripture and your own Christian history. Why?

 

[Brakelite]

Oh. You wanted the names of some who were leading the Catholic Church into apostasy after the 1st century? I thought you meant leading the true church after the 1st century. I would have to do a little research into who was responsible for introducing pagan practise into your church. For example, which Pope introduced these occult symbols into the Vatican front garden?View attachment 23704

Who introduced Sunday sacredness, the pagan day of the sun so popular with the Roman Mithraists which borrowed it from Persia,? Who introduced this practise...?? I don't know.

Got it....You can't back up your statements. I knew you couldn't but I thought I would give you a chance.

Thank you for your time.....

Don't be so arrogant and smug. I said I would research it...
Pope Sixtus V erected that Egyptian phallic obelisk.
I believe it was Pope Alexander 12th who sponsored the dressing and building of the occult solar wheel in St Peters square.
It was Constantine who introduced Sunday, but a succession of popes adopted it, and the council of Laodicea affirmed it officially in I think the 6th century. Don't quote me in that.
Same with the illicit adulterous marriage between the popes and the civil rulers. Just a long succession of ever deepening apostasy involving numerous Popes.

 

[Brakelite]

Scripture.....and the first 155 years of Christian historical writings that show that Christians practiced what Scripture taught:

The Didache
“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

You deny Scripture and your own Christian history. Why?

What scripture? You didn't quote any.

 

[Taken]

And it is your prerogative to follow the men you follow....sooooo what's your point?

Already made my point. Duh!
You could have revealed Bibles were Chained, when and why.
You can follow corrupt Gentile men and Christ’s Hijacked Church, or follow Christ’ Church.

BTW...What men do you follow? Baptists? Lutheran? SDA? Mormon?

Why you ask the Same question over and over, after being answered...

The answer has not changed...Christ the Lord Jesus and His appointed teacher...

ACTS 9:15
GAL 1: 15-16

Strange your Church exalts Peter as the prime preacher to “catholic Gentiles”...

 

[Marymog]

What scripture? You didn't quote any.

Following your lead kiddo...

 

[Marymog]

Don't be so arrogant and smug. I said I would research it...

Hmmmm....I thought post #220 was your research. I will disregard that post and I look forward to your answer/research.

Mary