ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[ATP]

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

So now I am in a dilemma. Do I believe the bible or ATP? Can I be cut off (loose my salvation) if I stop believing?

These Jews were walking in unbelief tom. They never had the root of salvation.

Rom 11:18 NIV do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

[tom55]

........provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

To continue a belief means that you are currently doing it. You can't continue something you are not doing. So when you say "they were walking in unbelief" is wrong. You can't be "cut off" from something and then be "grafted in again" if you were never part of it. You can loose your salvation (be cut off) and you can regain your salvation (be grafted in again) by your belief or unbelief.

 

[tom55]

It is apparent YOU know the scriptures, and what they say, so why worry about what ATP says? I can tell you that he has been on my ignore list from almost the beginning, as my opinion is you shouldn't waste your time on the unteachable or the inculcated.

Thank you for your kind words. I am hopeful I can help OSAS believers realize that their doctrine is not logical or biblical and that they MAY loose their soul if they adhere to it. I am also still trying to learn what they believe. I get confusing answers from them. Sometimes I wonder of ATP really believes what he says or if he just likes to argue and won't admit when he is wrong. Maybe I should adhere to Titus 3:10.... <_<

 

[ATP]

........provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

To continue a belief means that you are currently doing it. You can't continue something you are not doing. So when you say "they were walking in unbelief" is wrong. You can't be "cut off" from something and then be "grafted in again" if you were never part of it. You can loose your salvation (be cut off) and you can regain your salvation (be grafted in again) by your belief or unbelief.

Incorrect. The reason they were cut off the tree is because they had no root. The reason branches grow on a tree and remain is because of a healthy root.

 

[ATP]

Thank you for your kind words. I am hopeful I can help OSAS believers realize that their doctrine is not logical or biblical and that they MAY loose their soul if they adhere to it. I am also still trying to learn what they believe. I get confusing answers from them. Sometimes I wonder of ATP really believes what he says or if he just likes to argue and won't admit when he is wrong. Maybe I should adhere to Titus 3:10.... <_<

Well, it is logical. If we can lose our salvation then Jesus did not die for all sins. Good deeds will not get you into heaven tom, only the blood of Jesus will...

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 17:9-10 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

 

[tom55]

Incorrect. The reason they were cut off the tree is because they had no root. The reason branches grow on a tree and remain is because of a healthy root.

Good luck on your twisted way of inerpeting scripture. I am going to take the advise of StanJ and put you on my ignore list!! My prayers are with you!

 

[StanJ]

Good luck on your twisted way of inerpeting scripture. I am going to take the advise of StanJ and put you on my ignore list!! My prayers are with you!

Seems some have a problem knowing WHO the root is. Oh well.

 

[ATP]

Another one bites the dust.

Actually, I would think non-osas is following the doctrine of hell, adding works to the cross. The Law will not save you. Repent of your filthy works and believe. - ATP

Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[ATP]

Rev 22:16 NIV “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

 

[ATP]

I am certainly not feeling the kindness Rom 11:22. You better repent or you will go to hell!

 

[ATP]

Matt 23:25-26 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Matt 23:27-28 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

 

[logabe]

........provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

To continue a belief means that you are currently doing it. You can't continue something you are not doing. So when you say "they were walking in unbelief" is wrong. You can't be "cut off" from something and then be "grafted in again" if you were never part of it. You can loose your salvation (be cut off) and you can regain your salvation (be grafted in again) by your belief or unbelief.

If we don't understand what the resurrection is for, then we're not going to understand these
scriptures that are being used to justify our belief. Yes, we will be cut off as Paul says, but cut
off from what, should be the question to ask? Matthew 21:43 says,

43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away
from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

Who was Jesus talking to?

He was talking to the leaders of the Jews. The ones that were suppose to rule and reign in the
Age to come, but they rejected their King, so they disqualified themselves and lost their position
in the Kingdom of God.

So do you lose your salvation if you stop being kind to people in this present Age? No, but you do
lose your reward. You will be cut off and disqualified to rule and reign in the Kingdom of God. It's
not about you losing your salvation, but your rewards. 1st. Corinth. 3:14-15 says,

14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will
receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he
himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In other words, there will be some type of judgment @ his resurrection, such as, trials and tribulation
in his life to purify him, so he can receive immortality in the future. He lost his birthright, which was,
his ability to have dominion over the earth ( Gen. 1:26).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

Psalm 107:1-2 NIV Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. 2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,

 

[ATP]

Rom 11:22 NIV - This passage is a metaphor...

Q. Romans:11:22 contains the phrase, “Otherwise you also will be cut off.” So does this mean that we can we lose our salvation, If we do not continue in His goodness?

A. In Romans 8:38-39 Paul said nothing can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. In 2 Cor. 1:21-22 he said it’s God who makes us stand firm in Christ. He has set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee of the things to come. In Ephes 1:13-14 he said we were included in Christ when we believed, and were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Who a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

How then could he say we will lose our salvation if we do not continue in his goodness? After all, he wrote each of these verses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The answer is we can’t. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root.

Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved...https://gracethrufai...as-romans-1122/

In fact, Rom 11:16-24 NIV in its entirety is being used as a metaphor for God's relationship with non believing Jews and believing Gentiles..

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rom+11:11-24+NIV+metaphor

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

God's love does endure forever. Those who reject monergism and OSAS do not believe God's love or promises fail. That is not the reason people are lost. They are lost because they are without faith, not because God's love is insufficient or temporal.

If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root.

Well, if we never took nourishment from the root, then there would be no need to "cut off" the branch, right? "Cut off" indicates it was once connected, otherwise it would say, "remain off."

 

[ATP]

God's love does endure forever. Those who reject monergism and OSAS do not believe God's love or promises fail. That is not the reason people are lost. They are lost because they are without faith, not because God's love is insufficient or temporal.

Correct, and this faith only comes once. Believing only comes once....

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers who never had saving faith....

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[ATP]

Well, if we never took nourishment from the root, then there would be no need to "cut off" the branch, right? "Cut off" indicates it was once connected, otherwise it would say, "remain off."

You're still not accepting that Rom 11:16-24 is used as a metaphor, similar to John 15. You don't use Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false right?

 

[brakelite]

Psalm 107:1-2 NIV Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. 2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,

That does not necessarily support OSAS. Putting down a rabid dog does not mean one has stopped loving him. When God destroys the wicked, He hasn't stopped loving them in order to accomplish His purpose...the fact that He does still love them just makes it more painful for Him to do what He has to do...and that is protect the remainder of His children from the potential rot of allowing sin into heaven. No-one, whether Christian or heathen, will enter heaven if he poses any kind of threat to the community through harboring cherished sin. God will not take that risk..."Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."

 

[ATP]

That does not necessarily support OSAS. Putting down a rabid dog does not mean one has stopped loving him.

It's impossible for a born again believer to stop loving God. We are sealed until redemption Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

No-one, whether Christian or heathen, will enter heaven if he poses any kind of threat to the community through harboring cherished sin. God will not take that risk..."Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."

Poses a threat? What? This isn't Jerry Springer bro. Once you believe you are actually no longer condemned by God and no longer considered an enemy. Chastisement is not wrath brakelite...

No longer enemies - Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

No condemnation - Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

 

[brakelite]

I have been a Christian for nearly 40 years. In that time I have met born again Christians with some very strange and nasty habits, some which they, by faith in the power of God, were overcoming...others however were cherishing their habits and not repenting, not surrendering them, and not of a mind to give them up at all. Some were gossips...others thieves...others unforgiving...and others living in adultery. Yet all of them preached Christ...confessed Him...had a testimony of changed lives, of being born again. They had faith, been baptized, believed they were as saved as much as anyone else in town.But those sins...that worldliness, those habits....
But those sins, many will die without repenting. Without having received the grace of God for cleansing...these posed a risk to others not just in the church, but also in heaven...they would sow discord, mar the beauty of paradise, in fact, they would hate heaven because every one there would be a living testimony of the uncleanliness. They will not be permitted entry. They have been grafted into the vine. But they weren't willing to avail themselves of the power of God to overcome. They had been taught, like many others, that it was impossible to give up all sin. They may have tried in their own strength for a time, but when finding it too hard, and hearing that they would continue to sin for the rest of their lives, chose to allow it to continue and grew to accept it as a friend. So they didn't bother confessing...they didn't bother even to hide it in the end, but boasted that they could openly live in sin and not be condemned, because the Bible says so. Sound familiar? The will be cut off from the vine and burnt. No fruit, no life.
You say ATP there is no condemnation. No condemnation for who bro? You left that part out. Is it not that there is no condemnation for them who are in Christ? Whoa! Look here, there's another "abiding" challenge.