ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Wormwood]

Correct, and this faith only comes once. Believing only comes once....

I have no idea what this means...."Faith only comes once." Can you show me this in the Scriptures? Everything I have read says we are to "persevere" in the faith, "fight the good fight" of the faith, "hold fast" to our faith and "endure" in the faith. It sounds to me like faith is a way of life, not a momentary, cognitive acceptance of a few facts.

I do not know what the verses you have listed prove. Yes, salvation comes "through faith." Imagine you are standing on a sidewalk and someone hooks a hose to a faucet outside the house and brings you the end of the 20 foot hose so you can drink the refreshing water. The refreshing water comes "through the hose." You have access to the life-giving water. However, if you cast the hose aside, you have cut yourself off from access to the running water that is 20 feet away from you at the house. The water came through the hose and as long as you held on to the hose, you had access to the water. The same is true with faith. God's grace is made available "through faith." Everyone who has faith in Jesus Christ receives God's free gift of grace and mercy in Christ. However, if a person casts aside their faith, then they have been "cut off" from the free-flowing grace of God. It was not God who stopped loving or giving grace, but the individual that ceased to have faith...through which that mercy flowed. Without faith it is impossible to please God and without faith a person does not have access to the grace of God in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not monergistic. We must have faith and that faith is not something God distributes. Otherwise, the only conclusion is that God does not want the majority of people to believe and be saved and actually desires to send the majority of humanity to hell. Otherwise, he would grant them enduring faith, but he chooses not to. Are you okay with that conclusion?

You're still not accepting that Rom 11:16-24 is used as a metaphor, similar to John 15. You don't use Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false right?

Metaphors have a meaning just as parables have a point. Just because the Roman believers were not literal branches does not mean the terms like "cut off" and "grafted back in" have no meaning. Obviously they have meaning. Simply because Paul is using an illustration does not therefore mean that we can make the illustration say whatever we want. My hose illustration is a metaphor. Yet, you and I both clearly know what the metaphor means because I explained its meaning. Paul goes to great lengths to explain that they "stand" by faith but if they do not continue in faith "you too will also be cut off." He is not speaking to unbelievers. He just said they "stand by faith." Why would he say that if he was implying they were not really believers to begin with? I think you are allowing language games to avoid a very clear and straight-forward passage of Scripture. Illustrations are supposed to make concepts easier to grasp, not harder.

P.S. I do not believe in "soul sleep." I believe that to "depart from the body is to be present with Christ" (cf. Phil. 1:23).

 

[ATP]

ATP there is no condemnation. No condemnation for who bro? You left that part out. Is it not that there is no condemnation for them who are in Christ? Whoa! Look here, there's another "abiding" challenge.

Right, and the abiding occurs until redemption brake Eph 4:30.

I have been a Christian for nearly 40 years. In that time I have met born again Christians with some very strange and nasty habits, some which they, by faith in the power of God, were overcoming...

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

I have no idea what this means...."Faith only comes once." Can you show me this in the Scriptures? Everything I have read says we are to "persevere" in the faith, "fight the good fight" of the faith, "hold fast" to our faith and "endure" in the faith. It sounds to me like faith is a way of life, not a momentary, cognitive acceptance of a few facts.

And we persevere because God never leaves us, not because of our filthy works.

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

You didnt answer my question. If we persevere because God causes us to, are you ready to accept the implications that every person who finds themselves in eternal torment ends up there because God chose them to not have persevering faith?

 

[ATP]

You didnt answer my question. If we persevere because God causes us to,

are you ready to accept the implications that every person who finds themselves in eternal torment ends up there because God chose them to not have persevering faith?

If you never had persevering faith, then you never had saving faith brother. We are only saved once Rom 10:9-10.

 

[Wormwood]

Still didnt answer the question. If God grants persevering faith, then the reason people go to hell is because God did not grant them the kind of faith that can save them. Correct?

 

[ATP]

Still didnt answer the question. If God grants persevering faith, then the reason people go to hell is because God did not grant them the kind of faith that can save them. Correct?

Correct. They haven't truly believed in their hearts Rom 10:9-10. There's a lot of false prophets out there, especially in these end times.

 

[FHII]

Interesting exchange. Wormwood asked about faith granted (given?) by God, and ATP talked about people not believing in their hearts (thus they didn't produce faith).

Perhaps I'm just tired.

 

[ATP]

Interesting exchange. Wormwood asked about faith granted (given?) by God, and ATP talked about people not believing in their hearts (thus they didn't produce faith).

Perhaps I'm just tired.

Sounds about right. Why, what's on your mind.

 

[Wormwood]

FHII,

I find the response puzzling as well. If salvation is monergistic, then I dont understand why ATP makes it sound like its the individual's fault for not believing or the false prophet's fault for teaching error. If true faith can only come from God, then how is it not God's fault if a person does not have true faith? If faith is a gift from God necessary for salvation (and not a human response) then it can only be the fault of God for not giving the gift. I understand if ATP's view is that no one deserves salvation, I get that. However, you cannot say God truly desires all to be saved if he has the ability to save them all but chooses not to by not giving them "saving faith." There is no other conclusion one can reach with ATP's view. Thus, one must embrace limited atonement and I find that doctrine to be very unbiblical.

 

[ATP]

If faith is a gift from God necessary for salvation (and not a human response)

The human response is here..

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Wormwood]

Yeah but I cant make a "human response" if God does not give me the saving faith. Correct? So salvation is monergistic and thus we can ONLY conclude that someone isnt saved its because they did not receive faith so they could make a response. I am just asking if that is what you are ready to conclude. Most of the world is going to hell because God has predetermined not to give them saving faith. Yes or no?

 

[ATP]

Yeah but I cant make a "human response" if God does not give me the saving faith. Correct? So salvation is monergistic and thus we can ONLY conclude that someone isnt saved its because they did not receive faith so they could make a response. I am just asking if that is what you are ready to conclude. Most of the world is going to hell because God has predetermined not to give them saving faith. Yes or no?

I believe we all have a choice to believe and confess.
Believing and confessing comes first,
then you wait on the Holy Spirit to come to you John 14:18.
Saving faith is the result of believing and confessing bro.

 

[Wormwood]

Ok, so let me get this straight...

Sinful people have a choice to believe or not. If they believe, God then has a choice as to whether or not to grant saving faith. To some he gives saving faith but not to others or does everyone who chooses to believe receive saving faith?

I have two more questions to try to understand your thinking:

1. If you believe that "no one seeks God" and we are "dead in our sins" how do we choose to believe and confess if believing comes first? Is God enabling us to choose him by election and irresistable grace or is God responding to our choices?

2. If you believe that not everyone who believes and confesses receives "saving faith" from God, how can you say God wants those people saved if He chooses not to give them the kind of faith that will save them?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything. I am genuinely trying to understand where you are coming from, so I hope you read it that way.

 

[StanJ]

I have two more questions to try to understand your thinking:

1. If you believe that "no one seeks God" and we are "dead in our sins" how do we choose to believe and confess if believing comes first? Is God enabling us to choose him by election and irresistable grace or is God responding to our choices?

2. If you believe that not everyone who believes and confesses receives "saving faith" from God, how can you say God wants those people saved if He chooses not to give them the kind of faith that will save them?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything. I am genuinely trying to understand where you are coming from, so I hope you read it that way.

1. God draws us, then we choose.
2. Rom 10:8-11

Sometimes certain assertions require sarcasm to get the point across.

 

[ATP]

To some he gives saving faith but not to others or does everyone who chooses to believe receive saving faith?

Either you believe or you don't. Real faith is real faith bro. You can't fake it with God.

I have two more questions to try to understand your thinking:

1. If you believe that "no one seeks God" and we are "dead in our sins" how do we choose to believe and confess if believing comes first? Is God enabling us to choose him by election and irresistable grace or is God responding to our choices?

2. If you believe that not everyone who believes and confesses receives "saving faith" from God, how can you say God wants those people saved if He chooses not to give them the kind of faith that will save them?

1. God will draw you in by using your sins, but it's up to you to receive His gift.
2. God doesn't choose not to give them saving faith. They choose that for themselves by not truly believing in their hearts.

I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything. I am genuinely trying to understand where you are coming from, so I hope you read it that way.

Of course not. Questions are good.

 

[Wormwood]

Ok, so what I am gathering is that you are a non-Calvinist that believes in free-will but just that once a person has "real faith bro" (lol) then they eternally secure. Some comments you made in the past made it sound to me like you were a Calvinist who believed in limited atonement...so I was a bit confused on my end where you were coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ATP]

Ok, so what I am gathering is that you are a non-Calvinist that believes in free-will but just that once a person has "real faith bro" (lol) then they eternally secure. Some comments you made in the past made it sound to me like you were a Calvinist who believed in limited atonement...so I was a bit confused on my end where you were coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

Eternally secure, yes. Not a Calvinist Wormwood, a born again christian who has accepted the free gift of salvation.
Have you accepted His free gift?
Always remember, what Jesus did on the cross for you was out of love, not pharisee religion.

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

I find it somewhat insulting that because we disagree bout OSAS that you continually question my salvation and my relationship with the Lord Jesus. Can't we have doctrinal disagreements without assuming the other person isn't a believer or disciple? I think this is the reason why Christians divide so easily and cannot follow Christ's command to be unified....we demand others see things exactly our way and if they dont we determine they must be condemned. It is a real shame.

 

[ATP]

ATP,

I find it somewhat insulting that because we disagree bout OSAS that you continually question my salvation and my relationship with the Lord Jesus. Can't we have doctrinal disagreements without assuming the other person isn't a believer or disciple? I think this is the reason why Christians divide so easily and cannot follow Christ's command to be unified....we demand others see things exactly our way and if they dont we determine they must be condemned. It is a real shame.

We are commanded to test the spirits 1 John 4:1 NIV,
and that is what I'm doing.
I don't understand why a born again christian who has been saved by grace,
thinks grace cannot keep them saved until death Eph 4:30.
We cannot earn grace Wormwood.

 

[Wormwood]

How many times do you have to "test" me?

I do not know how I can be more clear on this issue. 1. I am not questioning God's grace. I am questioning whether human faith is a one-and-done thing as you suppose, or something that we are to hold to. 2. Faith is the opposite of "earning" or "works." I dont know how many verses I have to quote on the issue before you will accept that simple fact of the Bible.

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,” (Romans 4:2–5, ESV)