ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[ATP]

1. I am not questioning God's grace. I am questioning whether human faith is a one-and-done thing as you suppose, or something that we are to hold to. 2. Faith is the opposite of "earning" or "works."

Well, do you believe in the perseverance of the saints, and that God keeps His promise? Why would you question the faith of the saints? There should be no doubt in you.

James 1:12 NIV Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

Let us imagine you are married (I do not know if you are or not). Suppose your wife walks out on you and marries another man. Does that act reflect upon your faithfulness? Of course not. If you wife is faithless that does not mean you were faithless. I am not questioning God keeping his promise.

I am not questioning anyone's faith. I am merely reading the warnings of Scripture from God to saints as meaningful warnings that are to be heeded. They are not meaningless phrases directed at people who never believed. When God tells believers that they should endure in the faith or risk condemnation, I accept it for what it says. A person cannot endure or hold on or remain, or abide if they never had faith to begin with. I do not let a predetermined view of salvation to override the clear teaching of the Bible. My views are based in what i see the Bible teaching, not my own personal feelings on the issue, as you imply.

Lets look at James 1:12 since this is a perfect example:

"Blessed (favored) is the one who perseveres under trial...." Now, this passage is clearly teaching that God's favor belongs to those who persevere under trial. Clearly not all persevere under trial.

"having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life..." Clearly the test of whether or not someone is worthy of the crown of life is not a momentary acceptance of Jesus but an ongoing expression of enduring faith.

"that the Lord has promised to those who love him." God's promise of the crown of life belongs to those who "stood the test" and "love him." This is not teaching in any way that momentary "saving faith" somehow seals a person forever. Rather, it is teaching that God's blessing belongs to those who endure and continue to love God in the midst of life's trials and tests. Those are the ones who receive life. Those are the ones who are recipients of God's promise because they show by their endurance in the faith that they truly love God. There is nothing here about momentary faith that seals a person forever. Quite the opposite. It is teaching that God's promises and blessing is given to those who endure and remain faithful throughout life's difficulties. No magic bullet here.

 

[ATP]

Let us imagine you are married (I do not know if you are or not). Suppose your wife walks out on you and marries another man. Does that act reflect upon your faithfulness? Of course not. If you wife is faithless that does not mean you were faithless. I am not questioning God keeping his promise.

Good. 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, but unlike the wife that walks out, God will never walk out on you. Ever! Even when you mess up.

When God tells believers that they should endure in the faith or risk condemnation, I accept it for what it says.

This is incorrect terminology. Believers are actually no longer condemned but rather are disciplined and chastised. We lose blessings, not salvation Wormwood.

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

A person cannot endure or hold on or remain, or abide if they never had faith to begin with. I do not let a predetermined view of salvation to override the clear teaching of the Bible. My views are based in what i see the Bible teaching, not my own personal feelings on the issue, as you imply.

Lets look at James 1:12 since this is a perfect example:

"Blessed (favored) is the one who perseveres under trial...." Now, this passage is clearly teaching that God's favor belongs to those who persevere under trial. Clearly not all persevere under trial.

"having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life..." Clearly the test of whether or not someone is worthy of the crown of life is not a momentary acceptance of Jesus but an ongoing expression of enduring faith.

"that the Lord has promised to those who love him." God's promise of the crown of life belongs to those who "stood the test" and "love him." This is not teaching in any way that momentary "saving faith" somehow seals a person forever. Rather, it is teaching that God's blessing belongs to those who endure and continue to love God in the midst of life's trials and tests. Those are the ones who receive life. Those are the ones who are recipients of God's promise because they show by their endurance in the faith that they truly love God. There is nothing here about momentary faith that seals a person forever. Quite the opposite. It is teaching that God's promises and blessing is given to those who endure and remain faithful throughout life's difficulties. No magic bullet here.

Right, and those who persevere are the saints, born again believers. They persevere because the "promised holy spirit" never leaves them Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

 

[Wormwood]

Good. 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, but unlike the wife that walks out, God will never walk out on you. Ever! Even when you mess up.

I never said, or implied that God would. The wife, in this analogy is us, not God. We can be faithless even through God remains faithful. God will never leave us or divorce us. But does that mean we cannot leave or divorce him? That is the question. In my opinion the answer in Scripture is clearly, "Yes." Your wife can leave you and divorce you even if you reject it and desire to stay with her and remain faithful to her. We can leave and cut ourselves off from Christ even through he is faithful to us and promises he would never leave us. The question is not about God's promise and faithfulness, but ours. I think Scripture clearly teaches that we can reject Christ after having accepted him, and we are sternly warned of the dangers of doing this.

This is incorrect terminology. Believers are actually no longer condemned but rather are disciplined and chastised. We lose blessings, not salvation Wormwood.

We are disciplined and chastised so we can grow and become strong in the faith because by faith we are saved. Consider the following passage (emphasis mine):

“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.” (Hebrews 12:11–17, ESV)

 

[StanJ]

Ok, so what I am gathering is that you are a non-Calvinist that believes in free-will but just that once a person has "real faith bro" (lol) then they eternally secure. Some comments you made in the past made it sound to me like you were a Calvinist who believed in limited atonement...so I was a bit confused on my end where you were coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

There seems to be a few here who use RT vernacular but at the same point deny they are. How does the vernacular come into play if they are not RT. You don't learn it in a non RT environment.

 

[Wormwood]

There seems to be a few here who use RT vernacular but at the same point deny they are. How does the vernacular come into play if they are not RT. You don't learn it in a non RT environment.

Yeah, it is confusing to me also. I think there is a background and framework for many of these terms that many are unfamiliar with. So, they use the terms and they say one thing to us, but they are meant differently by those who use them. It gets confusing when the vocabulary becomes inconsistent from one source.

 

[ATP]

I never said, or implied that God would. The wife, in this analogy is us, not God. We can be faithless even through God remains faithful. God will never leave us or divorce us. But does that mean we cannot leave or divorce him? That is the question. In my opinion the answer in Scripture is clearly, "Yes." Your wife can leave you and divorce you even if you reject it and desire to stay with her and remain faithful to her. We can leave and cut ourselves off from Christ even through he is faithful to us and promises he would never leave us. The question is not about God's promise and faithfulness, but ours. I think Scripture clearly teaches that we can reject Christ after having accepted him, and we are sternly warned of the dangers of doing this.

Quenching the spirit is not losing salvation. We quench the spirit probably on a daily basis Jer 17:9. The only way to reject Christ after receiving Him is for Him to let it happen, but He never does. If He did then the blood He shed on the cross is meaningless. Jesus Christ died for past, present and future sins brother. There is no way around that. It makes me sad that you would think God gives up on His people when things get hard. Christ died for orphans, the fatherless and sinners. It's not by our power that we remain in Christ. It is His...

2 Cor 12:9 NIV But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

We are disciplined and chastised so we can grow and become strong in the faith because by faith we are saved. Consider the following passage (emphasis mine):

“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.” (Hebrews 12:11–17, ESV)

Consider that Esau existed before Resurrection and Pentecost , and before the seal of God Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

 

[Wormwood]

The only way to reject Christ after receiving Him is for Him to let it happen, but He never does.

Do you have a proof-text for this? This appears to be a theological assumption of yours that you are basing your views on. I simply do not think this is supported in Scripture. We do not lose our free-will or capacity to do wrong after becoming disciples.

Christ died for orphans, the fatherless and sinners. It's not by our power that we remain in Christ. It is His...

I would encourage you to read John and 1 John again. The Greek word meno, which means, "abide" is used about 60x. The word is almost always used as an exhortation to the listener. I never see any indication that this word is used in a way to indicate God does this on our behalf. I think John 15 is an excellent example of this.

Consider that Esau existed before Resurrection and Pentecost , and before the seal of God Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

Yes, but the author of Hebrews uses him as an example of the importance of these believers responding to God's discipline rather than spurning it. Therefore, it seems the inspired author felt that this example was applicable to the Christian life, or else he would not have used it.

 

[ATP]

(1) Do you have a proof-text for this? This appears to be a theological assumption of yours that you are basing your views on. I simply do not think this is supported in Scripture. We do not lose our free-will or capacity to do wrong after becoming disciples.

(2) I would encourage you to read John and 1 John again. The Greek word meno, which means, "abide" is used about 60x. The word is almost always used as an exhortation to the listener. I never see any indication that this word is used in a way to indicate God does this on our behalf. I think John 15 is an excellent example of this.

(3) Yes, but the author of Hebrews uses him as an example of the importance of these believers responding to God's discipline rather than spurning it. Therefore, it seems the inspired author felt that this example was applicable to the Christian life, or else he would not have used it.

1. The proof is in what He did on the cross for you. He died for the sins of humanity, past, present and future...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

2. Right, and the one's who abide in Christ are the saints, born again believers. They persevere because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves them Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

3. Spurning is incorrect terminology. Saints do respond to God's discipline accordingly because of the perseverance of the saints. Why do you still doubt?

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

 

[Phoneman777]

How many times do you have to "test" me?

I do not know how I can be more clear on this issue. 1. I am not questioning God's grace. I am questioning whether human faith is a one-and-done thing as you suppose, or something that we are to hold to. 2. Faith is the opposite of "earning" or "works." I dont know how many verses I have to quote on the issue before you will accept that simple fact of the Bible.

I think you'll agree that just as we cannot depend on yesterday's breaths to sustain our oxygen requirements today, so it is that an apostate cannot depend upon yesterday's sincere altar call to sustain the salvation that comes only by a day to day, moment by moment surrender to Jesus.

 

[Phoneman777]

1. The proof is in what He did on the cross for you. He died for the sins of humanity, past, present and future...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

2. Right, and the one's who abide in Christ are the saints, born again believers. They persevere because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves them Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

3. Spurning is incorrect terminology. Saints do respond to God's discipline accordingly because of the perseverance of the saints. Why do you still doubt?

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

ATP, you completely dodged the point regarding "abiding" that God does not do that for us, but that we do that ourselves. Don't you see that we must choose to abide continually in Jesus in order to partake of His salvation? Do you really think that those who cease to abide in Him will not suffer the same fate as the branch that fails to do the same - burning?

 

[ATP]

ATP, you completely dodged the point regarding "abiding" that God does not do that for us, but that we do that ourselves. Don't you see that we must choose to abide continually in Jesus in order to partake of His salvation? Do you really think that those who cease to abide in Him will not suffer the same fate as the branch that fails to do the same - burning?

Well, we abide in the vine because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves us Eph 1:13-14, it is called the perseverance of the saints. God keeps His promise to us...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

James 1:12 NIV Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

It's difficult to understand the depth of Jesus parables, allegories, metaphors, but first we have to accept that some passages are such to even begin to understand. Most people don't see Rom 11:16-24 as metaphorical language. It's important to differentiate between literal and non-literal. It's also important to not use this language to disprove OSAS, unless you choose to use Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false. We can't just choose what allegory to use to fit our theology. It doesn't work that way. To disprove OSAS you would need to use literal language.

Rom 11:22 NIV - This passage is a metaphor. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root. Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved. In fact, Rom 11:16-24 NIV in its entirety is being used as a metaphor for God's relationship with non believing Jews and believing Gentiles..

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rom+11:11-24+NIV+metaphor
http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Bulletin/64=2013/06_Khobnya_17.pdf
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/11-22.html

Blessings, ATP.

 

[Wormwood]

1. The proof is in what He did on the cross for you. He died for the sins of humanity, past, present and future...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV,Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Yes, he covers the past, present and future sins of those who trust him. These do not say that he does this for those who do not trust him.

2. Right, and the one's who abide in Christ are the saints, born again believers. They persevere because the promised Holy Spirit never leaves them Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

I think Hebrews 6 tells us something different.

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” (Hebrews 6:4–6, ESV)

3. Spurning is incorrect terminology. Saints do respond to God's discipline accordingly because of the perseverance of the saints. Why do you still doubt?

I dont doubt God. I doubt your interpretation of things. God's Word is what guides my thinking on this, and I dont think it matches what you are saying.

 

[ATP]

Yes, he covers the past, present and future sins of those who trust him. These do not say that he does this for those who do not trust him.

Well, if He died for future sins then wouldn't that mean He never leaves us? Thus confirming the trust of the saints? Those who do not trust Him are nonbelievers.

I think Hebrews 6 tells us something different.

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” (Hebrews 6:4–6, ESV)

Right, and those who have fallen away are those who do not and never had the root of salvation. Either you have the root or you don't. Either you're born again or you're not.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

I dont doubt God. I doubt your interpretation of things. God's Word is what guides my thinking on this, and I dont think it matches what you are saying.

Well, I see the opposite. If you do not believe in the perseverance of the saints then you doubt God's power and the work of the cross to keep you saved.

 

[Wormwood]

Well, if He died for future sins then wouldn't that mean He never leaves us? Thus confirming the trust of the saints? Those who do not trust Him are nonbelievers.

Right, and those who have fallen away are those who do not and never had the root of salvation. Either you have the root or you don't. Either you're born again or you're not.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Well, I see the opposite. If you do not believe in the perseverance of the saints then you doubt God's power and the work of the cross to keep you saved.

Grace comes through faith. Faith is something we possess (or do not). Jesus did not die to excuse faithlessness, or else the whole world would be saved. The idea that God somehow prevents people from being able to disbelieve once they have had a moment of faith is just not biblical. There is nothing in the Bible that says that if you believe for a moment, then God's Spirit overtakes you and you no longer have the ability to disbelieve because Jesus will not allow it.

This logic of yours just does not make any sense to me. You say, "you doubt God's power and work to keep you saved." This is like saying, "If you are not a universalist, you doubt God's power to save the world." This has nothing to do with God's power. It has everything to do with his plan of salvation. His plan is to allow us to choose to trust him or not. He does not force us to trust Him... That is not the role of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we would not see the dozens of warnings in the NT about falling away.

 

[StanJ]

Grace comes through faith. Faith is something we possess (or do not). Jesus did not die to excuse faithlessness, or else the whole world would be saved. The idea that God somehow prevents people from being able to disbelieve once they have had a moment of faith is just not biblical. There is nothing in the Bible that says that if you believe for a moment, then God's Spirit overtakes you and you no longer have the ability to disbelieve because Jesus will not allow it.

This logic of yours just does not make any sense to me. You say, "you doubt God's power and work to keep you saved." This is like saying, "If you are not a universalist, you doubt God's power to save the world." This has nothing to do with God's power. It has everything to do with his plan of salvation. His plan is to allow us to choose to trust him or not. He does not force us to trust Him... That is not the role of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we would not see the dozens of warnings in the NT about falling away.

I'm afraid at this point, he will NEVER get it.

 

[ATP]

There is nothing in the Bible that says that if you believe for a moment, then God's Spirit overtakes you and you no longer have the ability to disbelieve because Jesus will not allow it.

Actually, the Bible is quite clear on this matter.
Either you believe we are sealed until redemption or you don't.
It is clear that you don't believe the Word of God.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This logic of yours just does not make any sense to me. You say, "you doubt God's power and work to keep you saved." This is like saying, "If you are not a universalist, you doubt God's power to save the world." This has nothing to do with God's power. It has everything to do with his plan of salvation. His plan is to allow us to choose to trust him or not. He does not force us to trust Him... That is not the role of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we would not see the dozens of warnings in the NT about falling away.

Again, falling away refers to those who did not have the root of salvation. What is the root Wormwood?

There is nothing in the Bible that says that if you believe for a moment, then God's Spirit overtakes you and you no longer have the ability to disbelieve because Jesus will not allow it.

Believing only comes once brother. The devil is making you doubt your salvation. That is one of many of his fiery darts being thrown at you. The Perseverance of the saints is everywhere in the Bible. Rather, you would need to break that stronghold of yours to see it...

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 17:9-10 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

 

[logabe]

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

Rev. 3:5 says,

5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will
not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name
before My Father and before His angels.

Could you please explain this scripture to the audience.

Logabe

 

[Wormwood]

Again, falling away refers to those who did not have the root of salvation. What is the root Wormwood?

Ok, so they are falling away from nothing. "Be careful lest you fall away from nothing and lose the root of salvation you dont really have. Be careful lest you get cut off from the one to whom you really arent attached. Watch out lest your name blotted from the book of life...in which it really was never written to begin with. Abide in me, but of course, if you really abide in me, you can do no other but abide in me because I will not let you cease abiding in me." You are rendering passages in the Bible meaningless in order to preserve a theological agenda.

 

[Barrd]

Ok, so they are falling away from nothing. "Be careful lest you fall away from nothing and lose the root of salvation you dont really have. Be careful lest you get cut off from the one to whom you really arent attached. Watch out lest your name blotted from the book of life...in which it really was never written to begin with. Abide in me, but of course, if you really abide in me, you can do no other but abide in me because I will not let you cease abiding in me." You are rendering passages in the Bible meaningless in order to preserve a theological agenda.

What?

I think I must have stumbled in at a bad time...

Getting a little frustrated, WW??