ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[brakelite]

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[Barrd]

Precisely. I'm trying to get these poor sufferers of Cognitive Dissonance to accept that they have a major problem with their OSAS doctrine when considering the saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV which wind up "agape-less" through iniquity. It's proving as difficult as getting atheists to acknowledge the serious problems with evolution like Paleocurrents, Polonium Halos, the Fossil Record, etc. Like trying to herd cats.

Yes, my dear brother, it is just like trying to herd cats.
But God bless you, sweet brother of mine, for the love and the patience that you are demonstrating, and pray that I might learn from your beautiful example. I used to think that I had patience, till I met you. I would have shaken the dust from my feet by this time.
Perhaps, between you and these other Christians who are all here together in this mighty effort, we might catch us a cat or two...
And perhaps, in my own small way, I might also contribute to the great cause.
On to the cat-hunt, beloved brother!

 

[Barrd]

I don't feel the agape love from the OP.

ATP, if Phoneman puts you on his ignore list, who will you have left to argue with?
Settle down now, and at least act like a gentleman.

 

[Barrd]

Don't think to hard Phoneman.

This would be what is called an 'ad hominem" attack. It does not address the subject of the thread, but tries instead, to attack the person.
It is an act of desperation when the person making the attack

As I tell my own kids and grandkids:
Lose the 'tude, Dude. That's rude and crude, and not too shrewd.

I ask you, as patiently as I can (I'm not Phoneman, my patience with you is about gone)
Please try to conduct yourself as a gentleman, if not as a Christian.
Do you think you can do that?
Try, please.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, my dear brother, it is just like trying to herd cats.
But God bless you, sweet brother of mine, for the love and the patience that you are demonstrating, and pray that I might learn from your beautiful example. I used to think that I had patience, till I met you. I would have shaken the dust from my feet by this time.
Perhaps, between you and these other Christians who are all here together in this mighty effort, we might catch us a cat or two...
And perhaps, in my own small way, I might also contribute to the great cause.
On to the cat-hunt, beloved brother!

You're too kind, TB!

 

[ATP]

ATP, Jesus didn't say "the agape of God would wax cold". It says "the agape of MANY". Got it? We're not talking about God's agape toward us, we are talking about OUR agape toward God, OUR agape toward others, and OUR agape that is perfected in us by God - all by which the Bible says the saint is known.

It says the agape of many because Matt 24 is about end times, the end of the world Phone. The end of the world is not pretty. Why would God tell us in Matt 24:12 that our agape love will eventually separate us from God, and then in Rom 8:39 tell us that neither present nor future can separate us from God. God would be contradicting himself. Could it be that "psuchó" in Matt 24:12 and "sbennumi" in 1 Thess 5:19 are synonyms.

Also notice in Matt 24:13 and 1 Pet 1:23 NIV that we endure not because of religion, rather because God's seed remains in us forever. It's important to notice words when interpreting scripture....

Matt 24:13 NIV But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

1 Cor 10:13 NIV No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus is removing the fallen (church) out of its high place. Candlestick represents a group of people, not the Holy Spirit. For example, it's not saying God will remove the Holy Spirit from your body, rather it's saying God will remove the church as a people from your pride because they chose not to love Rev 2:4 NIV. The Gospel is of love, not religion folks. It's not talking about individual salvation, rather a group of people..

κινεῖν τήν λυχνίαν τίνος (ἐκκλησίας) ἐκ τοῦ τόπου αὐτῆς, to move a church out of the place which it has hitherto held among the churches; to take it out of the number of churches, remove it altogether, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent; or thee out of the candlestick, the pastor from the church, either by persecution or by death; or else the church, and church state itself, signified by a candlestick;

To be victorious, one would have to believe and trust in Jesus Christ as their savior Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV. Many will not believe that Jesus died for all their sins...Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

You're too kind, TB!

I calls em like I sees em, my dear brother! ^_^

 

[ATP]

God is not contradictory. Rom 8:35, 38-39.

Neither trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger or sword, death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation..

..will be able to separate the elect from the agape love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mark 4:9 NIV Then Jesus said, "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

Amen.

 

[ATP]

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Phoneman777]

No matter how OSAS slices it, it still must defend to the death the impossible idea that "agape-less" people who allowed their agape for God and man to grow cold and dead due to iniquity (Matthew 24:12-13 KJV) can still be counted among the saints - the same saints which are known Biblically as having agape for God, for man, and having that agape perfected in them by God.

The Bible says that even a wayfaring fool shall not err in the way of truth (Isaiah 35:8 KJV) and any fool can see that no one will gain entrance to heaven without "agape for God with all our heart, soul, and mind" and "agape for our neighbors as for ourselves" but OSAS must stubbornly demand that those whose allowed their agape to become cold and dead will still be there rather than admit itself to be the false doctrine of devils that it is.

 

[ATP]

No matter how OSAS slices it, it still must defend to the death the impossible idea that "agape-less" people who allowed their agape for God and man to grow cold and dead due to iniquity (Matthew 24:12-13 KJV) can still be counted among the saints - the same saints which are known Biblically as having agape for God, for man, and having that agape perfected in them by God.

The Bible says that even a wayfaring fool shall not err in the way of truth (Isaiah 35:8 KJV) and any fool can see that no one will gain entrance to heaven without "agape for God with all our heart, soul, and mind" and "agape for our neighbors as for ourselves" but OSAS must stubbornly demand that those whose allowed their agape to become cold and dead will still be there rather than admit itself to be the false doctrine of devils that it is.

Well, Rom 8:35, 38-39 agape love is from the Word of God. Would you care to comment on these scriptures. Or no.

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than victorious through Him who loved us.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, Rom 8:35, 38-39 agape love is from the Word of God. Would you care to comment on these scriptures. Or no.

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than victorious through Him who loved us.

ATP, who said it didn't come from the Word of God, namely Jesus Christ and what's that got to do with the fact that OSAS demands that people devoid of agape who can't keep the Two Great Commandments are going to heaven?

The "we" in "we are more than victorious" refers to those who possess agape for God, their neighbor, and have had that agape perfected in them by God, not the former saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV whose agape turned cold and dead due to iniquity and will be lost.

 

[ATP]

The "we" in "we are more than victorious" refers to those who possess agape for God, their neighbor, and have had that agape perfected in them by God, not the former saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV whose agape turned cold and dead due to iniquity and will be lost.

No, the "we" is referring to the elect in Rom 8:33 ESV. What about the (list of thirteen things) in Rom 8:35, 38-39 that can never separate the agape love of Christ from His elect. The victory has already been won Phoneman. It was won on the cross..

Prov 21:31 NIV The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD.

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

whose agape turned cold and dead due to iniquity and will be lost.

No, that's incorrect. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers who have not come to faith yet in Jesus Christ. The reason they are not His sheep is because of unbelief..John 10:25-26 NIV..

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

 

[SimpleFaith]

***Note: The scope of this thread is an analysis of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV only. Please do not attempt to refute the content of this post with other OSAS "proof texts" - if you wish to post OSAS "proof texts", please refer to Justaname's thread "The Doctrine of OSAS".***​

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"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But, he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV

The "many" of verse 12 are said to possess "agape" love which is the highest, purest form of expressed love. It is wholly selfless, self-sacrificing, and self-abasing love and is why it is referred to as "Godly love".

This is crucial in establishing that the "many" in verse 12 are in fact born again, grace saved, fully converted, washed-in-the-blood saints. It is impossible to conceive that the selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-absorbed, unsaved are capable of receiving and imparting to others agape love when their very carnal nature is enmity and hatred toward God. "He that is not with Me is against Me," says our Lord.

Verse 12 goes on to say that because of iniquity - deliberate, known, presumptuous sin - the agape of these many will "wax cold". Notice that this change from hot, living agape to cold, dead agape is not a abrupt, sudden change, but a gradual cooling until it is completely cold and dead. The road to perdition is traveled on foot by one rebellious step after another.

This brings us to the crux of the issue: If the saints are:

• known by their agape for one another (John 13:35 KJV)
• known by their agape for God Whom they have not seen (1 John 4:20 KJV)
• and are known for having the agape of God perfected in them (1 John 2:5 KJV)

...then how can anyone who no longer possesses agape be any longer numbered with the saints? The answer is that they are not.

Finally, Jesus begins verse 13 with the contrasting conjunction "but" which contrasts those who through willful indulgence in iniquity allowed their once perfected agape to die with him who through patient continuance in well doing had his agape preserved and perfected by God. Through their own rebellion, they became bankrupt of agape which rendered them incapable of fulfilling the Two Great Commandments.

Even so, all that it takes is to be willing to keep the two great commandments, to love God, and love our neighbors as ourselves. That takes a willingness to be disciplined, to change one's former behavior patterns and way of thinking. And that takes indepth time in God's word in order to be and do according to God's good pleasure. To be abiding in God's word, and God's word abiding in the believer, so that obedience comes from the heart and not from the former unsaved nature.

The believer who does not take the time to be rooted in God's love, will find that their word-seed will be easily thwarted by circumstances.. they will not endure to the end of a trial of pressure.

I pray that every believer's love for God be renewed, that their hunger and desire for God's word be restored as they had when they were first born again, that the redeemed of the LORD return and come with singing unto Zion and everlasting joy be upon their heads- where they wear the helmet of salvation.

 

[ATP]

Even so, all that it takes is to be willing to keep the two great commandments, to love God, and love our neighbors as ourselves. That takes a willingness to be disciplined, to change one's former behavior patterns and way of thinking. And that takes indepth time in God's word in order to be and do according to God's good pleasure. To be abiding in God's word, and God's word abiding in the believer, so that obedience comes from the heart and not from the former unsaved nature.

The believer who does not take the time to be rooted in God's love, will find that their word-seed will be easily thwarted by circumstances.. they will not endure to the end of a trial of pressure.

I pray that every believer's love for God be renewed, that their hunger and desire for God's word be restored as they had when they were first born again, that the redeemed of the LORD return and come with singing unto Zion and everlasting joy be upon their heads- where they wear the helmet of salvation.

Amen. Also notice agape love in Rom 8:35, 38-39. Shalom, - ATP.

 

[Phoneman777]

Even so, all that it takes is to be willing to keep the two great commandments, to love God, and love our neighbors as ourselves. That takes a willingness to be disciplined, to change one's former behavior patterns and way of thinking. And that takes indepth time in God's word in order to be and do according to God's good pleasure. To be abiding in God's word, and God's word abiding in the believer, so that obedience comes from the heart and not from the former unsaved nature.

The believer who does not take the time to be rooted in God's love, will find that their word-seed will be easily thwarted by circumstances.. they will not endure to the end of a trial of pressure.

I pray that every believer's love for God be renewed, that their hunger and desire for God's word be restored as they had when they were first born again, that the redeemed of the LORD return and come with singing unto Zion and everlasting joy be upon their heads- where they wear the helmet of salvation.

I agree. Perfection is not the requirement, but a willingness to be made perfect. OSAS denies the requirement that the saints must be willing to be made perfect.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, the "we" is referring to the elect in Rom 8:33 ESV. What about the (list of thirteen things) in Rom 8:35, 38-39 that can never separate the agape love of Christ from His elect. The victory has already been won Phoneman. It was won on the cross..

Prov 21:31 NIV The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD.

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


No, that's incorrect. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers who have not come to faith yet in Jesus Christ. The reason they are not His sheep is because of unbelief..John 10:25-26 NIV..

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Wrong, ATP. There are only two kinds of living people in the world: (1) the saints who receive agape from God and impart it to others, and (2) the unsaved who possess no agape whatsoever because they neither recieve it from God or impart it to others.

We are either with Jesus or against Jesus (Luke 11:23 KJV) - as I've told you before and you need to get this through your thick, bony skull: THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL SWITZERLAND.

The "many" of verse 12 who formerly were saints who possessed agape but allowed iniquity to turn their agape cold and lifeless aren't going anywhere but the Lake of Fire because they no longer can fulfill the Two Great Commandments. Only a fool will argue that those devoid of agape for God and their neighbor are heavenbound.

 

[ATP]

The "many" of verse 12 who formerly were saints who possessed agape but allowed iniquity to turn their agape cold and lifeless aren't going anywhere but the Lake of Fire..

There are thirteen things that will never separate the elect from the (agape love) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Spiritual Switzerland? You seem to be spiritually blind brother...

Rom 8:33 ESV Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:35-39 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

 

[Phoneman777]

There are thirteen things that will never separate the elect from the (agape love) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Spiritual Switzerland? You seem to be spiritually blind brother...

Rom 8:33 ESV Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:35-39 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

You continue to inject "the love of God" into the discussion. As stated in post # 80, Matthew 24:12 KJV isn't talking about "the love of God toward us", it's talking about "the agape of man toward God and his fellow man". Also, does anyone claim that God has ceases to love the "many" whose agape had grown cold and dead?

No one has claimed that. God yet loves them, but they are going to the Lake of Fire. Why? Because they no longer possess "agape toward God and their fellow man".

 

[ATP]

God yet loves them, but they are going to the Lake of Fire. Why? Because they no longer possess "agape toward God and their fellow man".

How is that love though? God loves them but will throw them into the lake of fire? Hmm..

So let me get this straight. You're saying that God saves them from trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword, death and life, angels, rulers, things present, things to come, powers, height, depth and everything else in all creation....

then decides to throw them into the lake of fire on Judgment Day?

But how can they no longer possess agape love if they've never been separated from it? Rom 8:39 ESV,

and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?

- ATP