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But isn't that discrimination? :unsure:Angelina said:
But the poster added OSAS into the subject line. It seems contradictory, or one-sided.Angelina said:
I'm sorry ATP. I don't understand what you mean? :huh: How does the "OP turn down OSAS" and when where you" not allowed to challenge him?"ATP said:
The original poster had announced the comments above at the beginning of this thread.. I was replying to that original poster when I stated ~
You said you were going to close down the thread if we discuss OSAS.Angelina said:
The original poster cannot make decisions in regards to threads because he is a member and debates placed in the "debate forum" are up for debate. Simple as that...
..and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?Phoneman777 said:
Hi, Angelina, is there anything wrong with limiting a thread topic to an exploration of the impact that one particular verse may have on that topic? Academics do it all the time and entire senior papers have been written on the exploration of just one Bible verse.Angelina said:
ATP, stop denying what Jesus makes abundantly clear: They are agapeless. Does that mean they are not still loved by Jesus? No, Jesus yet loves them, but they will go to hell with the rest of those Jesus loves because they have no agape.ATP said:
Well, in order to convince me you will have to answer this....Phoneman777 said:
ATP, the "elect" of God are those who possess agape, not the "agape-less" which Jesus says is their condition. The elect are known by their agape for God, for man, and by the agape perfected by God in them, not the "agape-less" condition of those who will not go to heaven.ATP said:
But it doesn't say agape-less. It says "waxed cold", which simply means quenching the spirit. The lake of fire is the second death, and Rom 8:38 says neither death nor life can separate us. So if death cannot separate us, that means we live, no?Phoneman777 said:
You are talking about the believer making a choice then. That in a time of increased lawlessness the believer is low on ability to endure, so they give up before the end.. therefore he does not reach that moment of being saved.Phoneman777 said:
.6:4-6 that states that it is possible to fall away from faith.. therefore OSAS is only contingent on the believer persevering in faith. It's not an automatic position.
ATP, you are desperately clinging to denial. Their agape is "cold" which means "lifeless" and "dead" and if it were any other situation, that is exactly what you'd conclude.ATP said:
Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Phoneman777 said:
Whether we be babes in Christ or seasoned saints, let's not make excuses for failure. I would so love to grab the Western Christian world and shake it until it pukes for its failure to take its focus off of its pathetic First World problems and gaze into history and to the modern east to see what those who love Jesus were and are willing with joyful hearts to sacrifice for Him. Endure to the end? Babyl-istians can't even endure from one church service this week until the following week's service.SimpleFaith said:You are talking about the believer making a choice then. That in a time of increased lawlessness the believer is low on ability to endure, so they give up before the end.. therefore he does not reach that moment of being saved.
Has it been established yet what "the end" is.. and what "being saved" is?
It seems that you might be assuming what those two are referring to because you've stated that those whose agape grows cold go to hell. I don't see that being said in those verses, so I think that some clarification is in order?
The study of Mat.24:12-13 is to prove against OSAS which everyone I think understands "S" to mean 'saved' : as in born again, a citizen of heaven, a child of God. I want to state that I am fully aware of
However, a babe in Christ can loose their capacity to love if the pressure is great enough. That would not mean that the Father would assign them to hell. Now Mat.24:12-13 however seems to refer to adults. However, even adults can loose their love if sufficiently pressured also. What can be said about the verses are that most peoples love will grow cold.
While others who are rooted in God's love will withstand any pressure.
It seems to directly imply a love for the brethren which grows cold. It may imply indirectly that the love for God also grows cold. The apostle John wrote extensively in his epistle that one cannot separate the love of the brethren from the love of God. Yet he addressed the attitude among the believers that they thought that they could love God yet not love the brethren.
Did he say then that they were assigned to hell?
