ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Angelina]

***Note: The scope of this thread is an analysis of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV only. Please do not attempt to refute the content of this post with other OSAS "proof texts" - if you wish to post OSAS "proof texts", please refer to Justaname's thread "The Doctrine of OSAS".***

Please note: This thread is in the debate forum. Any member can debate specific posts or question content within the guidelines of the forum rules. Please be respectful when posting. If this cannot be achieved then this thread will be closed.

Thank you!
Angelina
Moderation Team

 

[mjrhealth]

Its all the flesh it is what the flesh does, When the holyspirit is not involved it comes down to egos and the wills of men. No revelation just the flesh having a hissy fit.

 

[ATP]

Please note: This thread is in the debate forum. Any member can debate specific posts or question content within the guidelines of the forum rules. Please be respectful when posting. If this cannot be achieved then this thread will be closed.

Thank you!
Angelina
Moderation Team

But isn't that discrimination? :unsure:

Subject Line: ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

 

[Angelina]

It is an opinion. Members are open to debate subjects that are posted in this forum but members must keep to the forum rules of engagement.

 

[ATP]

It is an opinion. Members are open to debate subjects that are posted in this forum but members must keep to the forum rules of engagement.

But the poster added OSAS into the subject line. It seems contradictory, or one-sided.

What you're saying is that the OP can turn down OSAS, but the others are not allowed to challenge him?

 

[Angelina]

But the poster added OSAS into the subject line. It seems contradictory, or one-sided.

What you're saying is that the OP can turn down OSAS, but the others are not allowed to challenge him?

I'm sorry ATP. I don't understand what you mean? :huh: How does the "OP turn down OSAS" and when where you" not allowed to challenge him?"

***Note: The scope of this thread is an analysis of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV only. Please do not attempt to refute the content of this post with other OSAS "proof texts" - if you wish to post OSAS "proof texts", please refer to Justaname's thread "The Doctrine of OSAS".***

The original poster had announced the comments above at the beginning of this thread.. I was replying to that original poster when I stated ~

"Please note: This thread is in the debate forum. Any member can debate specific posts or question content within the guidelines of the forum rules. Please be respectful when posting. If this cannot be achieved then this thread will be closed."

 

[ATP]

I'm sorry ATP. I don't understand what you mean?

You said you were going to close down the thread if we discuss OSAS.

How is it possible not to discuss OSAS given the subject of the thread and the subject line?

 

[Angelina]

No...I didn't. Please read my comment again.

"Please note: This thread is in the debate forum. Any member can debate specific posts or question content within the guidelines of the forum rules. Please be respectful when posting. If this cannot be achieved then this thread will be closed."

 

[Angelina]

I will attempt to explain again. The original poster had made this statement at the beginning of his thread.

***Note: The scope of this thread is an analysis of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV only. Please do not attempt to refute the content of this post with other OSAS "proof texts" - if you wish to post OSAS "proof texts", please refer to Justaname's thread "The Doctrine of OSAS".***

The original poster cannot make decisions in regards to threads because he is a member and debates placed in the "debate forum" are up for debate. Simple as that...

 

[ATP]

Ok.

 

[ATP]

God yet loves them, but they are going to the Lake of Fire. Why? Because they no longer possess "agape toward God and their fellow man".

..and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?

 

[Phoneman777]

Please note: This thread is in the debate forum. Any member can debate specific posts or question content within the guidelines of the forum rules. Please be respectful when posting. If this cannot be achieved then this thread will be closed.

Thank you!
Angelina
Moderation Team

Hi, Angelina, is there anything wrong with limiting a thread topic to an exploration of the impact that one particular verse may have on that topic? Academics do it all the time and entire senior papers have been written on the exploration of just one Bible verse.

It was my intention to do just that with Matthew 24:12-13 KJV and its impact on OSAS. In other words, the intent of this thread is not to explore whether there is any Biblical support for OSAS, but rather whether OSAS stands the test of the textual scrutiny of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV. Surely, such a discussion format is certainly healthy and likely to limit the "bomb-throwing" of what are considered "proof texts" by those who have opposing viewpoints of a forum topic, is it not?

 

[Phoneman777]

But how can they no longer possess agape love if they've never been separated from it? Rom 8:39 ESV,

ATP, stop denying what Jesus makes abundantly clear: They are agapeless. Does that mean they are not still loved by Jesus? No, Jesus yet loves them, but they will go to hell with the rest of those Jesus loves because they have no agape.

 

[ATP]

ATP, stop denying what Jesus makes abundantly clear: They are agapeless. Does that mean they are not still loved by Jesus? No, Jesus yet loves them, but they will go to hell with the rest of those Jesus loves because they have no agape.

Well, in order to convince me you will have to answer this....

..and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, in order to convince me you will have to answer this....

..and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?

ATP, the "elect" of God are those who possess agape, not the "agape-less" which Jesus says is their condition. The elect are known by their agape for God, for man, and by the agape perfected by God in them, not the "agape-less" condition of those who will not go to heaven.

Just as nothing could separate David's love for Absalom and he agonized that it was not he instead of Absalom who died - though he wanted to KILL David - nothing can separate us from the love of God, though that will be of absolutely no benefit to these "many" who have chosen selfish iniquity over love for and surrender to God.

 

[ATP]

ATP, the "elect" of God are those who possess agape, not the "agape-less" which Jesus says is their condition. The elect are known by their agape for God, for man, and by the agape perfected by God in them, not the "agape-less" condition of those who will not go to heaven.

Just as nothing could separate David's love for Absalom and he agonized that it was not he instead of Absalom who died - though he wanted to KILL David - nothing can separate us from the love of God, though that will be of absolutely no benefit to these "many" who have chosen selfish iniquity over love for and surrender to God.

But it doesn't say agape-less. It says "waxed cold", which simply means quenching the spirit. The lake of fire is the second death, and Rom 8:38 says neither death nor life can separate us. So if death cannot separate us, that means we live, no?

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

- ATP

 

[SimpleFaith]

I agree. Perfection is not the requirement, but a willingness to be made perfect. OSAS denies the requirement that the saints must be willing to be made perfect.

You are talking about the believer making a choice then. That in a time of increased lawlessness the believer is low on ability to endure, so they give up before the end.. therefore he does not reach that moment of being saved.

Has it been established yet what "the end" is.. and what "being saved" is?

It seems that you might be assuming what those two are referring to because you've stated that those whose agape grows cold go to hell. I don't see that being said in those verses, so I think that some clarification is in order?

The study of Mat.24:12-13 is to prove against OSAS which everyone I think understands "S" to mean 'saved' : as in born again, a citizen of heaven, a child of God. I want to state that I am fully aware of Hb.6:4-6 that states that it is possible to fall away from faith.. therefore OSAS is only contingent on the believer persevering in faith. It's not an automatic position.

However, a babe in Christ can loose their capacity to love if the pressure is great enough. That would not mean that the Father would assign them to hell. Now Mat.24:12-13 however seems to refer to adults. However, even adults can loose their love if sufficiently pressured also. What can be said about the verses are that most peoples love will grow cold.
While others who are rooted in God's love will withstand any pressure.

It seems to directly imply a love for the brethren which grows cold. It may imply indirectly that the love for God also grows cold. The apostle John wrote extensively in his epistle that one cannot separate the love of the brethren from the love of God. Yet he addressed the attitude among the believers that they thought that they could love God yet not love the brethren.

Did he say then that they were assigned to hell?

 

[Phoneman777]

But it doesn't say agape-less. It says "waxed cold", which simply means quenching the spirit. The lake of fire is the second death, and Rom 8:38 says neither death nor life can separate us. So if death cannot separate us, that means we live, no?

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

- ATP

ATP, you are desperately clinging to denial. Their agape is "cold" which means "lifeless" and "dead" and if it were any other situation, that is exactly what you'd conclude.

 

[ATP]

ATP, you are desperately clinging to denial. Their agape is "cold" which means "lifeless" and "dead" and if it were any other situation, that is exactly what you'd conclude.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are talking about the believer making a choice then. That in a time of increased lawlessness the believer is low on ability to endure, so they give up before the end.. therefore he does not reach that moment of being saved.

Has it been established yet what "the end" is.. and what "being saved" is?

It seems that you might be assuming what those two are referring to because you've stated that those whose agape grows cold go to hell. I don't see that being said in those verses, so I think that some clarification is in order?

The study of Mat.24:12-13 is to prove against OSAS which everyone I think understands "S" to mean 'saved' : as in born again, a citizen of heaven, a child of God. I want to state that I am fully aware of Hb.6:4-6 that states that it is possible to fall away from faith.. therefore OSAS is only contingent on the believer persevering in faith. It's not an automatic position.

However, a babe in Christ can loose their capacity to love if the pressure is great enough. That would not mean that the Father would assign them to hell. Now Mat.24:12-13 however seems to refer to adults. However, even adults can loose their love if sufficiently pressured also. What can be said about the verses are that most peoples love will grow cold.
While others who are rooted in God's love will withstand any pressure.

It seems to directly imply a love for the brethren which grows cold. It may imply indirectly that the love for God also grows cold. The apostle John wrote extensively in his epistle that one cannot separate the love of the brethren from the love of God. Yet he addressed the attitude among the believers that they thought that they could love God yet not love the brethren.

Did he say then that they were assigned to hell?

Whether we be babes in Christ or seasoned saints, let's not make excuses for failure. I would so love to grab the Western Christian world and shake it until it pukes for its failure to take its focus off of its pathetic First World problems and gaze into history and to the modern east to see what those who love Jesus were and are willing with joyful hearts to sacrifice for Him. Endure to the end? Babyl-istians can't even endure from one church service this week until the following week's service.

The issue up for discussion is simple: the saints are known by their agape for God, man, and their agape being perfected by God in them. Even people with a limited double digit IQ can see that "cold agape" is "dead agape" at best and at the very least "imperfect agape". So, how can these "many" be any longer counted as "saints" if they lack the Biblical criteria to be a saint, which is agape for God, for man, and perfected agape in them?

If, then, agape-less people are not going to heaven, then consider the only other alternative.