And Science Says Our Gap Theory Is Bad.....

[Barrd]

​In another place, I have regularly asked evolutionary atheists to tell me how life began. Nine out of 10 of them didn't answer. In other words they don't know. The other one said you don't have to know how life began to understand evolution. In other words, I don't know.

As I understand it, how life began determines how life continues. If you believe that God created everything after its own kind, then that means forever after that is how it will happen. if you believe that life arose out of a primordial soup, then life must develop in the same way.

The main problem with the second one is where did the primordial soup come from? In actual fact, the evolutionary atheist will always come unstuck because regardless at what point they start, they still have to explain where the material came from that produced what it said they did.

​The only way they can overcome that is to say that something came out of nothing, but even then they up the creek without a paddle because science shows that nothing can come out of nothing. There has to be something to become something so we are back to square one. Where did the something come from regardless of what it is.

When you think through evolution logically, it is the most illogical invention on earth.

By George, I think you've got something there...

 

[River Jordan]

What you don't seem to understand, River, is that I am a Christian first. And I am a conservative Christian, meaning that I protest such things as abortion and gay marriage, etc. I'm not just a Christian on Sundays, I'm a Christian every day and every where.
That said, as I see it, science is nothing more than a tool that helps us to understanding the universe that God created. However, science has not made God obsolete, and it certainly has not replaced Him.
Nor will it, ever.

Not sure why you feel the need to keep saying that, since we agree on them.

I'm glad to know that, River. Thank you.

Perhaps I have misunderstood. I remember reading somewhere that there were as many as seven, or possibly ten, different ideas on where and how life may have started.

There are lots of ideas, but not all of them are equally supported. There are only a couple with true empirical support.

Of course, where life started is not really a mystery.
It started with God.

Again, we agree.

 

[River Jordan]

One thing it is based on is the humongous backdown by atheists who are evolutionists. Until recently, monkeys became man, amoeba became fish, sand worms became animals. Then monkeys and man had the same ancestors and recently we are told that evolution is adaptation. It has nothing to do with monkeys becoming man or having the same ancestors. Now that tells me that atheists who are evolutionists have hit a road block in their ideas so they have had to reconfigure everything to maintain some semblance of reality.

You're still obsessed with atheists in a forum where there are no atheists. Weird. And I have no idea where you got any of the above from.

In addition I have read an article where a school district in America is going to allow students to make up their own minds (shock, horror) about evolution and ID.

Link?

I can just see the Freedom from Religion organisation writing to the school district and threatening to take them to court if they allow students to make up their own mind and using their mantra to do that violates the Constitution.

Yeah, if what you said is true, they'll get sued and lose.

No wonder American education is being dumbed down if thinking for yourself is vigorously fought against.

No doubt! Why don't they teach kids flat-earthism, astrology, alchemy, Tarot cards, palm reading, holocaust denial....and just let them make up their minds for themselves on anything and everything! Instead of actually educating kids, we'll just be like, "Here are all the ideas in existence. It's up to you now!"

And I never said anything about how science worked so are you trying to sound relevant?

Never mind.

 

[Barrd]

Not sure why you feel the need to keep saying that, since we agree on them.

I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that, considering the grief you gave me in another thread, where we argued about whether or not Christians ought to be more tolerant of gay marriage.
As I recall, you accused me of "vilifying" gays because I said that gay sex was a sin, and you thought that I was a bigot because I sided with Christian bakers, caterers, etc, who refused to provide service for gay weddings.
You told me that folks like me are responsible for kids leaving their Christian faith, as I recall.

Now, on this issue, I believe that our kids deserve to know that the belief in a Creator is a valid belief, and not just some "bronze age myth", or crazy belief in a "magical sky daddy". I believe that they need to hear that from someone with authority that they respect.
I don't believe that is "teaching religion", but only acceptance.
I find it worrisome that a biologist who claims to be a Christian would be adamantly against even the tiniest hint that there even might be a Divine Creator...as if just the mere mention of such a notion will automatically turn every kid withing earshot into rabid, frothing at the mouth, Christian fanatics....
I just do not think such a position is reasonable.

There are lots of ideas, but not all of them are equally supported. There are only a couple with true empirical support.

Okay, I'm curious. What sort of ideas on the origin of life might have some scientific support?
I am interested to know how science might explain how inert, inorganic matter might actually spawn life...

Again, we agree.

I'm glad to hear that, River.
But it leaves me a bit puzzled.
Why would you not want a classroom full of impressionable young people to know that you, a reasonably intelligent, well-educated biologist, believe that life started with God?

 

[Barrd]

Something you said to Marksman caught my attention:

No doubt! Why don't they teach kids flat-earthism, astrology, alchemy, Tarot cards, palm reading, holocaust denial....and just let them make up their minds for themselves on anything and everything! Instead of actually educating kids, we'll just be like, "Here are all the ideas in existence. It's up to you now!"

You do know that the most intelligent kids are going to be reading outside of the classroom, I'm sure.
And they are going to encounter ideas like "flat-earthism, astrology, alchemy, Tarot cards, palm reading, holocaust denial."
Shouldn't they be able to discuss such ideas with their teachers?
No, I'm not saying that instructors should teach such notions to their kids.
But you must understand, teachers are not there to program "learning" into these exploring little minds....as if they are simply "downloading" information into a computer. No! Surely, we need to encourage kids to read, and explore, and learn on their own. Curiosity needs to be encouraged, imho....not stomped upon.

After all....it's those curious kids who search every dusty corner who make the very best biologists....true?

(Well, maybe we should not encourage flat-earthism. :unsure: )

 

[marksman]

You're still obsessed with atheists in a forum where there are no atheists. Weird. And I have no idea where you got any of the above from.


Link?


Yeah, if what you said is true, they'll get sued and lose.

No doubt! Why don't they teach kids flat-earthism, astrology, alchemy, Tarot cards, palm reading, holocaust denial....and just let them make up their minds for themselves on anything and everything! Instead of actually educating kids, we'll just be like, "Here are all the ideas in existence. It's up to you now!"


Never mind.

You asked a question, I answered. No obsession. Please forgive me if I am wrong but I think you have an obsession to disagree with everyone.

Link? I don't do the homework for other people. It is your job to do your own.

​What I said is true as I can do no other because I am autistic.

Why don't they teach kids.....somehow I think you have lost the plot as we were not discussing any of these things. If you are so worked up about them perhaps you would like to start a new thread covering these topics.

Never mind. I am glad you said that because I don't mind. Never have.

 

[River Jordan]

I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that, considering the grief you gave me in another thread, where we argued about whether or not Christians ought to be more tolerant of gay marriage.

All you're doing here is showing that you weren't paying attention at all to what I was saying, even the things I virtually shouted multiple times, and that I was right to leave the thread.

Now, on this issue, I believe that our kids deserve to know that the belief in a Creator is a valid belief, and not just some "bronze age myth", or crazy belief in a "magical sky daddy". I believe that they need to hear that from someone with authority that they respect.
I don't believe that is "teaching religion", but only acceptance.

I do too, but not in public school science classes.

I find it worrisome that a biologist who claims to be a Christian would be adamantly against even the tiniest hint that there even might be a Divine Creator...as if just the mere mention of such a notion will automatically turn every kid withing earshot into rabid, frothing at the mouth, Christian fanatics....
I just do not think such a position is reasonable.

Maybe it's because you live in an area where everyone generally believes the same. But in most other parts of the country, once you open the door for science teachers to tell students their views on God and creation, you can't limit that to only Christians and exclude everyone else. So if Christian creationist teachers are allowed to tell students about the Divine Creator, atheist teachers must also be allowed to tell students that there are no gods and Christianity is just a "bronze age myth" as you put it. Is that what you want?

Or maybe we should just stick to teaching science in science classes.

Okay, I'm curious. What sort of ideas on the origin of life might have some scientific support?
I am interested to know how science might explain how inert, inorganic matter might actually spawn life...

I think I showed you a paper a while ago that described how they've discovered that cell membranes, nucleotides and proteins can all arise from the same chemical precursors (hydrogen cyanide and its derivatives), which are common compounds. They just made this discovery this year, and it's been a bit of a bombshell in the origins research world.

Here is a news article about it: http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum

I'm glad to hear that, River.
But it leaves me a bit puzzled.
Why would you not want a classroom full of impressionable young people to know that you, a reasonably intelligent, well-educated biologist, believe that life started with God?

See above....because by the same reasoning, atheist science teachers must be allowed to let students know that they believe there are no gods.

You do know that the most intelligent kids are going to be reading outside of the classroom, I'm sure.
And they are going to encounter ideas like "flat-earthism, astrology, alchemy, Tarot cards, palm reading, holocaust denial."
Shouldn't they be able to discuss such ideas with their teachers?

Of course students can bring up anything they want to teachers. Teachers just have to be very careful when responding.

But you must understand, teachers are not there to program "learning" into these exploring little minds....as if they are simply "downloading" information into a computer. No! Surely, we need to encourage kids to read, and explore, and learn on their own. Curiosity needs to be encouraged, imho....not stomped upon.

After all....it's those curious kids who search every dusty corner who make the very best biologists....true?

I agree.

 

[River Jordan]

You asked a question, I answered. No obsession. Please forgive me if I am wrong but I think you have an obsession to disagree with everyone.

Link? I don't do the homework for other people. It is your job to do your own.

​What I said is true as I can do no other because I am autistic.

Why don't they teach kids.....somehow I think you have lost the plot as we were not discussing any of these things. If you are so worked up about them perhaps you would like to start a new thread covering these topics.

Never mind. I am glad you said that because I don't mind. Never have.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Barrd]

All you're doing here is showing that you weren't paying attention at all to what I was saying, even the things I virtually shouted multiple times, and that I was right to leave the thread.

Ahh, well...no sense in raking up old dirt, eh?
Perhaps I misunderstood you...or maybe you weren't paying attention at all to what I was saying. In any case, we bumped heads pretty hard...and I came away feeling a bit disillusioned with you.

I do too, but not in public school science classes.

But that is where so much controversy swirls...and the kids, who are neither blind, deaf, or stupid, realize this.
We need to let them know that we are not afraid. Our God is powerful enough to handle whatever the world throws at Him.

Maybe it's because you live in an area where everyone generally believes the same. But in most other parts of the country, once you open the door for science teachers to tell students their views on God and creation, you can't limit that to only Christians and exclude everyone else. So if Christian creationist teachers are allowed to tell students about the Divine Creator, atheist teachers must also be allowed to tell students that there are no gods and Christianity is just a "bronze age myth" as you put it. Is that what you want?

As long as the atheist teacher prefaces his remarks with "some people think", just as the Christian teacher, I could live with it. I may not like it, but I would want my kids to have a choice.
Faith is not faith if there is no choice.

Or maybe we should just stick to teaching science in science classes.

Isn't exploring all the possibilities what science is all about?

I think I showed you a paper a while ago that described how they've discovered that cell membranes, nucleotides and proteins can all arise from the same chemical precursors (hydrogen cyanide and its derivatives), which are common compounds. They just made this discovery this year, and it's been a bit of a bombshell in the origins research world.

Here is a news article about it: http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum

That's interesting.

See above....because by the same reasoning, atheist science teachers must be allowed to let students know that they believe there are no gods.

That idea does not frighten me a bit. I'm perfectly willing that kids be exposed to any and all ideas...the more the better.
And I am completely confident that, in the end, God wins.

Of course students can bring up anything they want to teachers. Teachers just have to be very careful when responding.

I would have said that they have to be completely honest, including being open to discussing their own thought and/or beliefs on these matters.

I agree.

I kinda thought you might...

 

[River Jordan]

But that is where so much controversy swirls...and the kids, who are neither blind, deaf, or stupid, realize this.
We need to let them know that we are not afraid. Our God is powerful enough to handle whatever the world throws at Him.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

As long as the atheist teacher prefaces his remarks with "some people think", just as the Christian teacher, I could live with it. I may not like it, but I would want my kids to have a choice.
Faith is not faith if there is no choice.

I'd just rather not turn science classes into religious debates.

Isn't exploring all the possibilities what science is all about?

No. Science is about studying things that are testable. AFAIK, God isn't testable in a scientific sense.

 

[Barrd]

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

Ahh, well.

I'd just rather not turn science classes into religious debates.

Religious debate?
"Some people believe," is hardly an opening for a religious debate.
The very worst thing that could possibly happen would be for a kid to raise his hand and ask, "What do you believe, teacher?"
The teacher could prevaricate and say "What I believe has absolutely no bearing on this course," or, he could be honest and say, "I believe ______. Some people agree with me, others do not. Perhaps one day we'll know for sure one way or the other, but till then, let's get back to the reason we're all here...to study our science."

No. Science is about studying things that are testable. AFAIK, God isn't testable in a scientific sense.

Or he could tell the kids that science is about studying things that are testable...that would be perfect.
The kids would be exposed to the controversy without being dragged into one side or the other, and they would be able to see their teacher as a human being, with a religion of his or her own.
The teacher just took the shame out of owning a religious belief.
A truly elegant solution, River...

 

[marksman]

I'd just rather not turn science classes into religious debates.

As soon as an atheist says that God does not exist it is a religious debate.

 

[River Jordan]

Or he could tell the kids that science is about studying things that are testable...that would be perfect.
The kids would be exposed to the controversy without being dragged into one side or the other, and they would be able to see their teacher as a human being, with a religion of his or her own.
The teacher just took the shame out of owning a religious belief.
A truly elegant solution, River...

There ya' go. Glad we figured that out!

 

[Barrd]

There ya' go. Glad we figured that out!

Now all we have to do is to convince all the science teachers on the planet that the world will not come to a horrible end if they so much as whisper the possibility that there might be a Creator to their classes....

But first, I need to finish wrapping these presents.

Merry CHRISTmas, River!

 

[Born_Again]

As soon as an atheist says that God does not exist it is a religious debate.

Absolutely correct!

 

[Barrd]

Absolutely correct!

As soon as a Christian says "Good Morning", it is a debate.

 

[Born_Again]

As soon as a Christian says "Good Morning", it is a debate.

To who? I have never had that experience. LOL

 

[Barrd]

To who? I have never had that experience. LOL

Well, Good Morning, BA...

 

[Born_Again]

Well, Good Morning, BA...

HAHAHAHA! Good Morning Barrd!

 

[Barrd]

HAHAHAHA! Good Morning Barrd!

May God rain down blessings on you and on those you love this day, BA!