Another Gospel “faith alone”!

[atpollard]

The blessed virgin Mary’s?

Catholics would scream bloody murder if “I SUGGESTED” that you were saved by the faith of the “blessed virgin Mary” rather than God given faith in Christ … so you might want to avoid that particular sarcasm in the future.

(You Catholics already waste too much time nagging Jesus’ mother when He told you to ask His Father.)

 

[theefaith]

How many times and in how many ways can it be repeated that “it” is a gift of God. So the FAITH is not human generated faith (“for within me no good thing lives” … remember that verse). Just for the record, the “gift” is more than Faith, but that requires looking at masculine and feminine word tense in Greek and you are stumbling over the simple English words and phrases. So I will leave it to you to research that on your own.

“Faith alone”

Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!

 

[theefaith]

Catholics would scream bloody murder if “I SUGGESTED” that you were saved by the faith of the “blessed virgin Mary” rather than God given faith in Christ … so you might want to avoid that particular sarcasm in the future.

(You Catholics already waste too much time nagging Jesus’ mother when He told you to ask His Father.)

it not our faith and someone had to have faith for us and it says Mary was faithful Lk 1:45 and she received all grace for us and is the treasurer of divine grace Lk 1:28 heb 4:16
Just as Mary nourished the body of Christ in her womb 9 months and years after that so she nourishes the mystical body of Christ with grace from God
Our spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

 

[theefaith]

Catholics would scream bloody murder if “I SUGGESTED” that you were saved by the faith of the “blessed virgin Mary” rather than God given faith in Christ … so you might want to avoid that particular sarcasm in the future.

(You Catholics already waste too much time nagging Jesus’ mother when He told you to ask His Father.)

you think you have a right or authority to read scripture and decide truth or faith for yourself

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

Truth and the church are divine!
They come from God and cannot be in error or imperfect so they cannot change or be reformed by man to say they can is blasphemy and treason against God who revealed them!

And same truths revealed by Christ and taught by the church are always believed and taught from the beginning when Christ taught his church in person! Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints or the deposit of faith eph 4:5 one faith!


Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[atpollard]

it not our faith and someone had to have faith for us and it says Mary was faithful Lk 1:45 and she received all grace for us and is the treasurer of divine grace Lk 1:28 heb 4:16
Just as Mary nourished the body of Christ in her womb 9 months and years after that so she nourishes the mystical body of Christ with grace from God
Our spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

I stand corrected ... the Blessed Virgin even has saving faith for Catholics.
(Yet another reason to be grateful that I am a Baptist rather than Roman Catholic.)

 

[BreadOfLife]

FYI: Even the RCC acknowledges that God can save without Baptism ... or else all death-bed confessions and infant deaths before baptism MUST result in damnation because God cannot save without "water baptism" [or fill in any other sacrament]. We both know that the RCC claims no such limitation of God's ability to save. However Ephesians 2 applies to all since I know of no claim that God saves those that have no faith in Him ... even among Catholics.

The Church does NOT teach that ONLY Baptized people will be saved. Water Baptism is the NORMATIVE means of spiritual regeneration and salvation (John 3:5. Acts 2:38, Col. 2:11-12, 1 Pet. 3:21).

HOWEVER, God can and DOES make exceptions – such as the Criminal on the cross, whom Jesus told would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43). A person may have a “deathbed” conversion but does NOT have the opportunity to be Baptized. This is what the Church calls, Baptism of Desire.

The Church is Christ on earth (Acts 9:3-4), to whom He gave supreme earthly Authority to make such a declaration (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18. Luke 10:16, John 16:15-18).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Foul. Moving the goal posts in the middle of a play.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is “justification by faith apart from the need for works of righteousness”.
When the RCC adds “sacraments” as prerequisites or co-requisites to being “in Christ”, it is adding works of righteousness by men as a limitation on God’s ability to save. This is exactly what the Reformers objected to and disagreed with.

Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9 for a reason. Sola Fide (Faith Alone) objects to attempts to place the works of Ephesians 2:10 before the gift of Ephesians 2:8-9.

The works mentioned in Eph. 2:10 are NOT at odds with the Gift of God – they are PART of it.
God prepared those works – in ADVANCE for us to do as an essential element of our faith, which IS the Gift.

Faith is NOT si9mply “believing”. The Scriptures tell us that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19) – but they are NOT saved. Faith requires SURRENDER (James 4:7), LOVE (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6), and OBEDIENCE (Luke 9:23, John 14:15).

Sola Fide can ONLY be believed if it INCLUDES those works of love, surrender and obedience from God.
Without them - you are NO better off than the demons . . .

 

[atpollard]

The Church does NOT teach that ONLY Baptized people will be saved.

Just for the record, you do know that I said that. Right? I claimed that was NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church. I try very hard to only accuse the RCC of things that it is guilty of (like Baptizing babies or placing Tradition and Scripture as equal in authority or proclaiming certain things ‘anathema’ at the Council of Trent.)

 

[atpollard]

Truth is immutable! Cannot change!

So the curses from the Council of Trent still stand, right?

I am ‘anathema’ for rejecting Tobit as uninspired … cursed, expelled from the Church and damned.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just for the record, you do know that I said that. Right? I claimed that was NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church. I try very hard to only accuse the RCC of things that it is guilty of (like Baptizing babies or placing Tradition and Scripture as equally in authority or proclaiming certain things ‘anathema’ at the Council of Trent.)

“Guily” of?

The Church is “Guilty” of the Apostolic teaching of Infant Baptism that was practiced by Peter (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14) and Paul (Acts 16:23-33, 1 Cor. 1:16)?

The Church is “Guilty” of the BIBLICAL proclamation that Scripture and Sacred Tradition are ob equal footing (2 Thess. 2:15)??

The Church is “Guilty” of proclaiming Anathemas when Jesus Himself have the Church this Authority (Matt. 18:16-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)??

As for the rest - I was simply showing you the Catholic Church's teaching on the matter contrasted by YOUR denial of the efficacy of works of faith.

 

[atpollard]

The works mentioned in Eph. 2:10 are NOT at odds with the Gift of God – they are PART of it.
God prepared those works – in ADVANCE for us to do as an essential element of our faith, which IS the Gift.

In the revealed truth of Ephesians 2:1-10, when in the process (Ordo Salutis) am I justified?

• While I was dead and before God “made us alive”?
  
• Before or after the “gift of faith”?
  
• Not until after I have completed the last of the “good works”?

That is the question that Sola Fide (Faith Alone) addresses.
It does not claim salvation with a reprobate lifestyle (as some are fond of accusing).

Since Catholics and Protestants sometimes stumble over vocabulary, I offer this from Theopedia to help clarify the term “justified”:

Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:24-26; Romans 4:25; Romans 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Romans 5:1), His Spirit (Romans 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Romans 1:18-3:28).​

 

[atpollard]

“Guilty” of?

GUILTY: “justly chargeable with a particular fault or error.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

In the revealed truth of Ephesians 2:1-10, when in the process (Ordo Salutis) am I justified?

• While I was dead and before God “made us alive”?
  
• Before or after the “gift of faith”?
  
• Not until after I have completed the last of the “good works”?

That is the question that Sola Fide (Faith Alone) addresses.
It does not claim salvation with a reprobate lifestyle (as some are fond of accusing).

Since Catholics and Protestants sometimes stumble over vocabulary, I offer this from Theopedia to help clarify the term “justified”:

Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Romans 3:24-26; Romans 4:25; Romans 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Romans 5:1), His Spirit (Romans 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Romans 1:18-3:28).​

It’s not about how many good works you have done or whether you’ve accomplished ALL of the works God prepared for you – any more than a true marriage requires that you accomplish EVERYTHING you intend to do for your spouse during your lifetime.

Remember, true faith requires SURRENDER and love and obedience – not just obedience.

A person cannot be justified if they refuse to be Baptized.

 

[atpollard]

The Church is “Guilty” of the BIBLICAL proclamation that Scripture and Sacred Tradition are ob equal footing (2 Thess. 2:15)??

[2 Thessalonians 2:13-15]

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word [of mouth] or by letter from us.​

… and when men in funny hats start to invent new traditions that contradict the Written words of the Apostles? How much do indulgences sell for these days? Which Apostle first taught about Mary Coredemptrix? Why was the mass in Latin and now in Vernacular … which Apostle forbade it and which changed his mind?

Your Sacred Traditions are a slippery thing that remind me of the famous words of Humpty Dumpty: “When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

 

[BreadOfLife]

GUILTY: “justly chargeable with a particular fault or error.”

There is ZERO error in the things you listed Regarding the Church.

 

[atpollard]

A person cannot be justified if they refuse to be Baptized.

I am called bold for placing my opinions (interpretations of Scripture) above the teachings of the RCC … and you proclaim who God can and cannot justify.

 

[BreadOfLife]

[2 Thessalonians 2:13-15]

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word [of mouth] or by letter from us.

… and when men in funny hats start to invent new traditions that contradict the Written words of the Apostles? How much do indulgences sell for these days? Which Apostle first taught about Mary Coredemptrix? Why was the mass in Latin and now in Vernacular … which Apostle forbade it and which changed his mind?

Your Sacred Traditions are a slippery thing that remind me of the famous words of Humpty Dumpty: “When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Your denial of Sacred Tradition is a denial of the Word of God Himself.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

It does NOT say that ONLY the written is to be adhered to – but BOTH.
The Written is a TRADITION, as is the Oral.

As for things you listed – it was out of total ignorance of Catholic teaching.
Indulgences and the use of Larin are DISCIPLICARY matters and NOT considered Apostolic Tradition.
Mary as “Co-Redemptrix” is not an official teaching, either.

Wanna know what IS a Tradition that YOU and the rest of your Protestant brethren adhere to?
The NT Canon of Scripture – declared by the Catholic Church in 383.
Bet you don’t know where you got your OT Canon . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am called bold for placing my opinions (interpretations of Scripture) above the teachings of the RCC … and you proclaim who God can and cannot justify.

No I don't - GOD does.
The difference is - I believe Him . . .

 

[atpollard]

Mary as “Co-Redemptrix” is not an official teaching, either.

Yet … (which was my point against your “Apostolic” Tradition).

 

[atpollard]

The NT Canon of Scripture – declared by the Catholic Church in 383.

Which Apostle “spoke” that to you in 383?
(Again … my problem with your so-called “Apostolic” Tradition).