Another Gospel “faith alone”!

[atpollard]

We don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols either!

It was a reference to 1 Corinthians 10:

23 “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything builds up. 24 No one is to seek his own good, but the good of the other person.

25 Eat everything that is sold in the meat market, without raising questions for the sake of conscience, 26 since the earth is the Lord’s, and all that is in it. 27 If any of the unbelievers invites you over and you want to go, eat everything that is set before you, without raising questions for the sake of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This is food from a sacrifice,” do not eat it, out of consideration for the one who told you, and for the sake of conscience. 29 I do not mean your own conscience, but the other person’s. For why is my freedom judged by another person’s conscience? 30 If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I criticized because of something for which I give thanks?

31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, 33 just as I also try to please everyone in everything, not seeking my own benefit, but the benefit of many, so that they may be saved.​

In the story, the man that ate meat (you in my analogy) was correct and free and right ... he was the stronger brother that knew the truth. The man that could not eat meat (or venerate Mary) because of his conscience was the weaker brother. The point of the story was not forcing someone to violate their conscience (because you love them) even if you are right and they are wrong. It is actually one of the things that help to DEFINE Baptists (called a Baptist Distinctive):

INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
Every individual, believer and unbeliever, possesses the God-given privilege of free will having the liberty to choose what to believe. No one should be forced to any belief against his or her will. God speaks to individuals through His Word and His Spirit. Every person is individually responsible to God and will be judged according to the beliefs and practices he or she freely chooses. Freedom of choice demands personal responsibility.

John 3:36; Romans 14:4-12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9

• While Baptists have been known for holding their doctrines firmly and passionately, they also insisted on the rights of others to do the same. The news of radio personality Hank Hanegraaff, the “Bible Answer Man,” recently converting to Eastern Orthodoxy may have surprised many evangelicals, but Baptists support his liberty to convert. It was Baptists who first insisted on religious liberty in Rhode Island. It was Virginia Baptists who wrote to Thomas Jefferson insisting that the Constitution of the United States provide religious liberty for all. Baptists stand for religious liberty, so I am a Baptist. - Mark H. Ballard

 

[theefaith]

Technically, they (John the Baptist, then Jesus and the Disciples) preached "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near/here." ... Baptism is how the people "repented".

The message changed a bit after Acts 2 and the Road to Damascus (the Holy Spirit shakes things up whenever He arrives).

Faith and baptism
But it must be correct faith or it’s no faith at all!

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

 

[theefaith]

It was a reference to 1 Corinthians 10:

23 “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything builds up. 24 No one is to seek his own good, but the good of the other person.

25 Eat everything that is sold in the meat market, without raising questions for the sake of conscience, 26 since the earth is the Lord’s, and all that is in it. 27 If any of the unbelievers invites you over and you want to go, eat everything that is set before you, without raising questions for the sake of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This is food from a sacrifice,” do not eat it, out of consideration for the one who told you, and for the sake of conscience. 29 I do not mean your own conscience, but the other person’s. For why is my freedom judged by another person’s conscience? 30 If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I criticized because of something for which I give thanks?

31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, 33 just as I also try to please everyone in everything, not seeking my own benefit, but the benefit of many, so that they may be saved.​

In the story, the man that ate meat (you in my analogy) was correct and free and right ... he was the stronger brother that knew the truth. The man that could not eat meat (or venerate Mary) because of his conscience was the weaker brother. The point of the story was not forcing someone to violate their conscience (because you love them) even if you are right and they are wrong. It is actually one of the things that help to DEFINE Baptists (called a Baptist Distinctive):

INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
Every individual, believer and unbeliever, possesses the God-given privilege of free will having the liberty to choose what to believe. No one should be forced to any belief against his or her will. God speaks to individuals through His Word and His Spirit. Every person is individually responsible to God and will be judged according to the beliefs and practices he or she freely chooses. Freedom of choice demands personal responsibility.

John 3:36; Romans 14:4-12; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Titus 1:9

• While Baptists have been known for holding their doctrines firmly and passionately, they also insisted on the rights of others to do the same. The news of radio personality Hank Hanegraaff, the “Bible Answer Man,” recently converting to Eastern Orthodoxy may have surprised many evangelicals, but Baptists support his liberty to convert. It was Baptists who first insisted on religious liberty in Rhode Island. It was Virginia Baptists who wrote to Thomas Jefferson insisting that the Constitution of the United States provide religious liberty for all. Baptists stand for religious liberty, so I am a Baptist. - Mark H. Ballard

oh ok I see what you mean

Maybe this will help

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, cos Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death!

What is the new song?

Psalm 33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 98:1, and 149:1

 

[atpollard]

King: implies a queen.

Christ is not married ... "Queen" by definition is the wife of the King. If we are really going to follow this analogy then:

• Who is the Bride of Christ? ... future Queen.

New Adam: implies a new eve.

First Eve: (Genesis 2)

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to come over the man, and he slept. God took one of his ribs and closed the flesh at that place. 22 Then the LORD God made the rib he had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 And the man said:
This one, at last, is bone of my bone
and flesh of my flesh;
this one will be called “woman,”
for she was taken from man.
24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh.​

• Who is the new being made from Christ? His Body ... the Church ... all believers being knit together with Christ as the Head?

Disciple: implies faith, self denial, and suffering.

I so want to look up the Greek word translated "disciple" ... but I will resist.

To reject the church is to reject Christ who founded it. Matt 16:18-19

Matthew 16 (context)

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is? ”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others, Elijah; still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But you,” he asked them, “who do you say that I am? ”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus responded, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he gave the disciples orders to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
​

• I don't actually see "To reject the church is to reject Christ who founded it" in that exchange.
• The MAIN POINT is that Jesus will found his Church on the TRUTH revealed to Peter ... “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
• ... and He did.
• A SECOND POINT is that authority appears to have been transferred. I wish I knew off hand if "you" was singular or plural so it would be clear in English if the "keys" went to "PETER" (you singular) or "APOSTLES" (you plural - y'all).
• An old argument not worth rehashing since you will read it one way and I will read it another no matter how many times we repeat it ... no "and your successors" was stated. Authority is given by God (all agree). That authority can be transferred is not agreed upon by many (not just Catholics and Protestants disagree - some Charismatics claim to be able to "give" the Holy Spirit).

 

[theefaith]

Only one thing at a time please these are large subjects

normally a kings wife is chosen for queen
And the church is the bride of Christ
But Christ is king specifically in the line of David! Lk 1:32-33
And in this line the mother is queen
Solomon had many wife’s and wisdom so his mother was queen

In ancient Israel not kings wife but his mother was crowned queen!

1 kings 2:18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.

19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

A Seat: throne
King bows in respect
Right hand position of authority

The queen received the petitions of the people and presented them to the king Her royal Son!


Psalm 45:9 …upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Son of David the king: royalty!

Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 9:27
And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Matt 12:23
Matt 15:22
Matt 20:30
Matt 20:31
Matt 21:9-15 etc.

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

House of David the king:

Lk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Received the kingdom of David:

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Christ is King, Mary must be queen!

Only a queen can bear a king!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33 the queen mother sits at His right hand and receives the petitions of the members of the kingdom!

The mother of any king is automatically queen and rules half the kingdom!
The queen mother!

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.

30 And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God

 

[theefaith]

Mary the new eve!

Mary & Eve!

Eve was of the First creation: carnal
Mary of the New creation: spiritual

Eve the cos of Sin and curse disobeyed God! Gen 3:12
Mary cos of salvation, Lk 1:30 & consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 obeyed God & found our salvation Lk 1:30

Eve mourned:
Mary rejoiced: Lk 1:46

Eve gave birth to the all sinners: mother of all the living. Gen 3:20
Mary to the savior of all men: mother of all living in Christ. Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Mary the mother of God! Lk 1:43

Eve brought punishment: gen 3:16
Mary salvation: Lk 1:30 & 38 Lk 2:30

Eve source of sin: gen 3:16
Mary source of grace: Lk 1:30 & 38

Eve brought death: gen 3:19
Mary life: Jn 1:16-17 & Jn 10:10

Eve only wounds & suffering: gen 3:19
Mary healing:

Eve infidelity: gen 3:6
Mary faithfulness: Lk 1:45

Eve offended the Lord: gen 3:6-7
Mary’s soul (being) doth magnify the Lord: Lk 1:46

Eve cursed: gen 3:17-19
Mary blessed: Lk 1:28

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women!
Lk 1:28



Sirach 24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits.
27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb.
28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
(I know this scripture is deleted by the tradition of men in the KJV)


The Dove, & rainbow signs of peace are types of Mary mother of our salvation who obtained peace for all men!

Song of Solomon 1:2
Smelling sweet of the best ointments. Thy name is as oil poured out: therefore young maidens have loved thee.
Oil heals and fuels the flame, and is the fruit of the olive (peace) so the name of Mary is our peace, and healing, and fire of divine love!

Proverbs 8:35
He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:

And hundreds more, you will find in the excellent book by Saint Alphonse Lugosi the glories of Mary!

Lk 1:45 all generations shall call me blessed!

Actually this is an exultation of thanksgiving for having obtain thier eternal salvation!

Mary and all the saints grace, virtues, and merits are from God’s infinite goodness mercy and love and they end in the God glory!
Lk 1:49

All graces come to us they Mary, from God by the merits (blood) of Christ!
Jn 1:16
Of His fullness we have all received, grace for grace!

Salvation Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mother of Christ Matt 1:16
Mother of the word Jn 1:1
Mother of our savior Matt 1:21
Mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Our mother Jn 19:26-27

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John sanctified in the womb!

Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!

 

[theefaith]

Disciple referring to

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[theefaith]

Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
To reject the church or the teaching of the church is to reject Christ

Did the Father send Christ or a confession of Christ?

Jesus Christ is the rock of salvation!

Peter is the rock that the church is built on by Christ alone!

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone

Jn 21:17 Peter entrusted with the flock or church

Only Peter and His successors have
Jurisdictional authority from Christ to govern the church!

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediary!

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

First and chief apostle!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church on earth in the place of Christ until His return!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles and the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 10:44
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

4 important questions:

1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?

4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?

Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!

Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[theefaith]

Did the Father send Christ or a confession of Christ?

Jesus Christ is the rock of salvation!

Peter is the rock that the church is built on by Christ alone!

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone

Jn 21:17 Peter entrusted with the flock or church

Only Peter and His successors have
Jurisdictional authority from Christ to govern the church!

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediary!

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

First and chief apostle!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church on earth in the place of Christ until His return!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles and the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 10:44
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

4 important questions:

1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?

4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?

Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!

Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[theefaith]

A good tree!

Biblical principle:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

So Mary CANNOT be a sinner or a bad tree!

So have no fear to honor, love and venerate Mary as scripture commands us to do so!

All generations shall call me blessed! Lk 1:48

A new song!

Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!

Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!

It is really God who greeting Mary with the “Hail Mary”!
Lk 1:26 & Lk 1:45

Blessed art thou among all women! Lk 1:28 & Lk 1:45 & Lk 1:48

All generations shall call me blessed! Lk 1:48

A new song of thanksgiving for bringing our salvation!

And thanksgiving for the incarnation of Jesus Christ! The word was made flesh and dwelt among us thanks to Mary’s yes consenting to our salvation!






Sing a new song?
New song of salvation!

Psalm 33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 98:1, and 149:1

 

[BreadOfLife]

The claim is ECFs crediting Infant Baptism to Apostolic traditions.

Irenaeus clearly states that Jesus became an infant to save infants. This is viewed by some as a clear early reference to Infant Baptism (which in my opinion is only a maybe since infant baptism is really NOT the focus of the discussion … Jesus’ baptism was). In any event, nothing here suggests “Apostolic tradition” even if it were interpreted to demonstrate “Church Tradition”.

This quote from Hippolytus is about HOW to baptize and again demonstrates “Church Tradition” without making any reference to it being Apostolic in origin. From the title, there may be another quote from this source to indicate “Apostolic Verbal Tradition” as the source of this advice, but a certain skepticism is justified.

Cyprian mentions nothing about any Apostolic Tradition and is merely presenting a majority opinion over a minority opinion on when infants should be baptized. It clearly indicates that infants were baptized in AD 253, but says nothing about whether that was because John (the last Apostle) said to do it, or the Judiazers (associated with James) said to do it, or Gnostic teachings said to do it. It only affirms that babies were baptized (which I personally never challenged as a historic fact in the third century and later … it is the Book of Acts where I think you are employing eisegesis and reading too much into TWO households, one of which also had “children” old enough to be commended for their service to the church.)

Augustine is not making an appeal to Apostolic Tradition but building a case from Scripture. This argues that infants should be baptized (as do Presbyterians) but is the antithesis of an appeal to “tradition”.

I saved Origen for last because this is a reference to third century infant baptism based on an appeal to Apostolic Tradition. This is exactly what was requested. Two thoughts:

• Two centuries after the death of the last apostle is a long time in oral traditions … how many and how reliable are your family stories from 1900?
  
• I am not an expert on Origen, but were not some of his beliefs ultimately rejected as heretical? (Is he reliable)?

Ultimately, few ECFs credited Infant Baptism to Apostolic instructions.
Most ECFs acknowledged the practice and defended it (centuries after the Apostles).

FIRST of all – it was NOT my intention that EVERY quote from the ECFs would reference the Apostolic origins of Infant Baptism.
I gave you BOTH, quotes from them regarding the practice of Infant Baptism – as well as quotes about WHERE this practice came from.

As to your implication that any Tradition over 200 years old is NOT reliable – tell that to JESUS, who spoke one the ORAL Tradition of the Chair of Moses some 1300 years after Moses walked the earth (Matt 23:2).

Paul writes about the magicians Jannes and Jambres from the SAME era some 1300 years after Moses (2 Timothy 3:8).

Paul ALSO writes about the Rock that followed Moses and the Israelites ion the desert (1 Cor. 10:4).

Finally – Paul puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Sacred Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15).

So, for YOU or anybody else to insist that Oral Tradition is LESS reliable that what is written (Scripture), especially when Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15) – is anti-Biblical and therefore, Anti-CHRIST.

As for the "entire households" of Cornelius, Stephanas and the Philippian Jailer that were Baptized by Peter and Paul - why would you assume that children of ALL ages were NOT included? These were young men of working age. Households included both young and old as well as servants.

Here are some MORE quotes from the Early Church regarding Infant Baptism – and its APOSTOLIC origins . . .

ORIGEN
“The Church received from the APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an INFANT not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted

the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an INFANT] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 58:5).

GREGORY OF NAZIANZUS
“Do you have an INFANT CHILD? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the INFANT be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

AUGUSTINE
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except APOSTOLIC” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

COUNCIL OF MILEUM II
“Whoever says that INFANTS fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . LET HIM BE ANATHEMA [EXCOMMUNICATED]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration” (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).

 

[atpollard]

As for the "entire households" of Cornelius, Stephanas and the Philippian Jailer that were Baptized by Peter and Paul - why would you assume that children of ALL ages were NOT included? These were young men of working age. Households included both young and old as well as servants.

Respectfully, I only assume that everyone that was baptized was old enough to "hear, believe and repent". If the whole household was baptized, then the whole household heard, believed and repented.

I believe that God has children, but no "grandchildren". Nobody is saved by the faith of their parents (and having no faith of their own).

The RCC may disagree with my blessings (I have many Presbyterian Brothers that do). You just don't get to be a "Baptist".
[... but you can still come to the Thursday Potluck Dinner.]

 

[atpollard]

FIRST of all – it was NOT my intention that EVERY quote from the ECFs would reference the Apostolic origins of Infant Baptism.
I gave you BOTH, quotes from them regarding the practice of Infant Baptism – as well as quotes about WHERE this practice came from.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

• Yes, as a Baptist I believe in Credobaptism and reject the practice of baptizing infants (or anyone else that does not believe).
• No, I am not a lunatic that would deny that Paedobaptism is an ancient practice within the church mentioned in the 3rd Century which is approximately the earliest writings that survive on the subject. So for all practical purposes, the church has "always" had Paedobaptists (those that baptize entire families).

What I was curious about was your specific claim that the tradition could be linked back to the Apostles. There is a gap in the written record between the First Century Scripture and the Third Century burst of "state church" writings. I was specifically curious about anything that could bridge that gap and link the clear tradition recorded in the Third Century to Apostolic teaching in the First Century.

For that reason, and no other, references to ECFs that support "Baptism" but say nothing about the Apostles are of no interest to me. They "prove" a fact that I never questioned.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

· Yes, as a Baptist I believe in Credobaptism and reject the practice of baptizing infants (or anyone else that does not believe).

· No, I am not a lunatic that would deny that Paedobaptism is an ancient practice within the church mentioned in the 3rd Century which is approximately the earliest writings that survive on the subject. So for all practical purposes, the church has "always" had Paedobaptists (those that baptize entire families).

What I was curious about was your specific claim that the tradition could be linked back to the Apostles. There is a gap in the written record between the First Century Scripture and the Third Century burst of "state church" writings. I was specifically curious about anything that could bridge that gap and link the clear tradition recorded in the Third Century to Apostolic teaching in the First Century.
For that reason, and no other, references to ECFs that support "Baptism" but say nothing about the Apostles are of no interest to me. They "prove" a fact that I never questioned.

I don’t know where you get “State Church” from the 3rd century.
The Church was still being persecuted at the time – and in fact was undergoing the WORST era of its persecution during the 3rd century (Diocletian Persecution).

So, the ONLY thing this “proves” id that YOU are wrong about another fact of Church history.

As to you insistence that ORAL Tradition needs to be documented in WRITING – apparently, you don’t understand what Tradition is. In 2 Thess. 2:15, Paul makes it clear that Tradition comes in TWO forms:
It comes in EITHER the ORAL - OR the WRITTEN – and he said to “Hold fast” to BOTH.

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres. Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with Satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

 

[Matthias]

Mary the new eve!

Mary & Eve!

Eve was of the First creation: carnal
Mary of the New creation: spiritual

Eve the cos of Sin and curse disobeyed God! Gen 3:12
Mary cos of salvation, Lk 1:30 & consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 obeyed God & found our salvation Lk 1:30

Eve mourned:
Mary rejoiced: Lk 1:46

Eve gave birth to the all sinners: mother of all the living. Gen 3:20
Mary to the savior of all men: mother of all living in Christ. Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Mary the mother of God! Lk 1:43

Eve brought punishment: gen 3:16
Mary salvation: Lk 1:30 & 38 Lk 2:30

Eve source of sin: gen 3:16
Mary source of grace: Lk 1:30 & 38

Eve brought death: gen 3:19
Mary life: Jn 1:16-17 & Jn 10:10

Eve only wounds & suffering: gen 3:19
Mary healing:

Eve infidelity: gen 3:6
Mary faithfulness: Lk 1:45

Eve offended the Lord: gen 3:6-7
Mary’s soul (being) doth magnify the Lord: Lk 1:46

Eve cursed: gen 3:17-19
Mary blessed: Lk 1:28

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women!
Lk 1:28



Sirach 24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits.
27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb.
28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
(I know this scripture is deleted by the tradition of men in the KJV)


The Dove, & rainbow signs of peace are types of Mary mother of our salvation who obtained peace for all men!

Song of Solomon 1:2
Smelling sweet of the best ointments. Thy name is as oil poured out: therefore young maidens have loved thee.
Oil heals and fuels the flame, and is the fruit of the olive (peace) so the name of Mary is our peace, and healing, and fire of divine love!

Proverbs 8:35
He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:

And hundreds more, you will find in the excellent book by Saint Alphonse Lugosi the glories of Mary!

Lk 1:45 all generations shall call me blessed!

Actually this is an exultation of thanksgiving for having obtain thier eternal salvation!

Mary and all the saints grace, virtues, and merits are from God’s infinite goodness mercy and love and they end in the God glory!
Lk 1:49

All graces come to us they Mary, from God by the merits (blood) of Christ!
Jn 1:16
Of His fullness we have all received, grace for grace!

Salvation Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mother of Christ Matt 1:16
Mother of the word Jn 1:1
Mother of our savior Matt 1:21
Mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Our mother Jn 19:26-27

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John sanctified in the womb!

Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!

Would you also say, as I do - Jesus the new Moses?

 

[atpollard]

I don’t know where you get “State Church” from the 3rd century.
The Church was still being persecuted at the time – and in fact was undergoing the WORST era of its persecution during the 3rd century (Diocletian Persecution).

So, the ONLY thing this “proves” id that YOU are wrong about another fact of Church history.

I stand corrected, I was thinking of Constantine in the Fourth Century. However, that is the history of YOUR church … a tale of men clawing dogma by dogma and burned dissident by burned dissident ever further from the Church found in the Book of Acts by Jesus and the Apostles. My church begins with men reading the word of God in their native tongue, re-discovering the Words of God, and learning just how apostate Rome had become.

As to you insistence that ORAL Tradition needs to be documented in WRITING – apparently, you don’t understand what Tradition is. In 2 Thess. 2:15, Paul makes it clear that Tradition comes in TWO forms:
It comes in EITHER the ORAL - OR the WRITTEN – and he said to “Hold fast” to BOTH.

Since I have explained it twice and you are incapable of listening when you are stuck in “waiting to speak” mode … there is nothing further to be gained by this non-conversation.

 

[Illuminator]

I stand corrected, I was thinking of Constantine in the Fourth Century.

Multiple MYTHS concerning Constantine abound on the internet, with no scholarly primary or secondary source documentation, blindly accepted by those predisposed to irrational hostility towards the Church, as you are.
Baptist Secessionism is an Embarrassment to Baptists.

However, that is the history of YOUR church … a tale of men clawing dogma by dogma and burned dissident by burned dissident ever further from the Church found in the Book of Acts by Jesus and the Apostles.

This is an outrageous accusation. First, there is no evidence the early church was Protestant. Second, I accept histories by professional historians, Protestant or Catholic, Ph.D. level, because after 1960, they stopped with the "burning of dissidents" mantra because the information is based on 18th century rhetoric. No reliable historian is going to jeopardize their credentials by writing falsehoods. That's why you don't document your false histories. Third, we understand the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 to be an infallible council whereas you ignore it because an infallible Church doesn't fit in with the Protestant tradition of a non-infallible church.

"men clawing dogma by dogma"??? Really?

My church begins with men reading the word of God in their native tongue, re-discovering the Words of God, and learning just how apostate Rome had become.

This is probably the biggest whopper you have come up with. English didn't exist in the 3rd century. Funny how nobody noticed this alleged apostacy until the middle of a revolt in the 16th century. No date or council is ever mentioned. When, exactly, did this momentous event occur? You never give a date, nor do you cite a council over this alleged apostasy.

16. Was Martin Luther the first one to translate the Bible into the language of the people?

No. The Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian and Hungarian long before Martin Luther gave out his Lutheran Bible.

17. When did Luther’s Bible come out?

It came out in 1520 and before his Bible appeared there were exactly 104 editions of the Bible in Latin; there were 9 before the birth of Luther in the German language, and there were 27 in German before the Lutheran Bible appeared. Before the Protestant Bible appeared there were already in Italy more than 40 editions and 25 of these were in the Italian language with the express permission of Rome.

In France there were 18 editions before 1547. Spain began her editions in 1478. In all, 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world. With all this evidence why should there be those intellectuals who declare that the Church despised the Bible? This testimony shows that the Church fought to preserve it, translate it, and multiply it. She saved it from utter destruction at the hands of infidels; she saved it from total extinction by guarding it as the greatest treasure of all ages.

18. Why did the Church keep the Bible in Latin until the Reformation gave the people the Bible in the vernacular?

The usual belief is that the Church kept the Bible in Latin so that the masses could not read it, and thereby discover the wiles of priestcraft. That nobody but priests could read the Bible is nonsense. There were just two classes of people in the Middle Ages: those who could read, and those who could not read. Those who could read read Latin and were perfectly content with the Scriptures in Latin, and those who could not read Latin could not read at all. So why should the Church prior to the spread of education in the vernacular translate the Bible from Latin for them? Latin was then the language of all cultured men and it was the common language of Europe. Students heard their lectures in Latin and they talked Latin. Retreats to nuns were preached in Latin and they understood the discourses. Hence, Latin was not a dead language but a living one. If the Church desired to keep the Bible from the people then why did the Church translate the Bible out of Greek into Latin and call the Vulgate Version of the fourth century the "Bible of the People"?​

http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/bible.htm << that's called citing a source, you should try it sometimes.

Your claim as quoted above falls apart in a heap.

Are you aware that "sola scriptura" is a Latin phrase? Doctors write prescriptions in Latin so it can be understood by any pharmacist anywhere in the world.

Since I have explained it twice and you are incapable of listening when you are stuck in “waiting to speak” mode … there is nothing further to be gained by this non-conversation.

You're quite right. There is nothing to be gained by your arrogant refusal to bend from your false definition of tradition and you don't support your anti-Catholic LIES with any scholarly references. Tradition has been patiently explained and defined several times in this thread; you ignore them all and reply with headless chicken comments. Debating with you is like playing chess with a pigeon, they poop all over the board and strut around like they won.
Your 16th century politics is boring and outdated.

 

[atpollard]

Multiple MYTHS concerning Constantine abound on the internet, with no scholarly primary or secondary source documentation, blindly accepted by those predisposed to irrational hostility towards the Church, as you are.
Baptist Secessionism is an Embarrassment to Baptists.

This is an outrageous accusation. First, there is no evidence the early church was Protestant. Second, I accept histories by professional historians, Protestant or Catholic, Ph.D. level, because after 1960, they stopped with the "burning of dissidents" mantra because the information is based on 18th century rhetoric. No reliable historian is going to jeopardize their credentials by writing falsehoods. That's why you don't document your false histories. Third, we understand the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 to be an infallible council whereas you ignore it because an infallible Church doesn't fit in with the Protestant tradition of a non-infallible church.

"men clawing dogma by dogma"??? Really?

This is probably the biggest whopper you have come up with. English didn't exist in the 3rd century. Funny how nobody noticed this alleged apostacy until the middle of a revolt in the 16th century. No date or council is ever mentioned. When, exactly, did this momentous event occur? You never give a date, nor do you cite a council over this alleged apostasy.

16. Was Martin Luther the first one to translate the Bible into the language of the people?

No. The Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian and Hungarian long before Martin Luther gave out his Lutheran Bible.

17. When did Luther’s Bible come out?

It came out in 1520 and before his Bible appeared there were exactly 104 editions of the Bible in Latin; there were 9 before the birth of Luther in the German language, and there were 27 in German before the Lutheran Bible appeared. Before the Protestant Bible appeared there were already in Italy more than 40 editions and 25 of these were in the Italian language with the express permission of Rome.

In France there were 18 editions before 1547. Spain began her editions in 1478. In all, 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world. With all this evidence why should there be those intellectuals who declare that the Church despised the Bible? This testimony shows that the Church fought to preserve it, translate it, and multiply it. She saved it from utter destruction at the hands of infidels; she saved it from total extinction by guarding it as the greatest treasure of all ages.

18. Why did the Church keep the Bible in Latin until the Reformation gave the people the Bible in the vernacular?

The usual belief is that the Church kept the Bible in Latin so that the masses could not read it, and thereby discover the wiles of priestcraft. That nobody but priests could read the Bible is nonsense. There were just two classes of people in the Middle Ages: those who could read, and those who could not read. Those who could read read Latin and were perfectly content with the Scriptures in Latin, and those who could not read Latin could not read at all. So why should the Church prior to the spread of education in the vernacular translate the Bible from Latin for them? Latin was then the language of all cultured men and it was the common language of Europe. Students heard their lectures in Latin and they talked Latin. Retreats to nuns were preached in Latin and they understood the discourses. Hence, Latin was not a dead language but a living one. If the Church desired to keep the Bible from the people then why did the Church translate the Bible out of Greek into Latin and call the Vulgate Version of the fourth century the "Bible of the People"?​

http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/bible.htm << that's called citing a source, you should try it sometimes.

Your claim as quoted above falls apart in a heap.

Are you aware that "sola scriptura" is a Latin phrase? Doctors write prescriptions in Latin so it can be understood by any pharmacist anywhere in the world. You're quite right. There is nothing to be gained by your arrogant refusal to bend from your false definition of tradition and you don't support your anti-Catholic LIES with any scholarly references. Tradition has been patiently explained and defined several times in this thread; you ignore them all and reply with headless chicken comments. Debating with you is like playing chess with a pigeon, they poop all over the board and strut around like they won.
Your 16th century politics is boring and outdated.

Non Sequitur.
(spare me your delusional rants)

 

[Illuminator]

Christ is not married ... "Queen" by definition is the wife of the King blah, blah, blah....

You're dead wrong (again). By definition, the queen in the Davidic Kingdom was the mother of the king, not the wife. Jesus didn't change this truth. You contaminate your post with yet another anti-biblical falsehood.
THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY - Scripture Catholic

 

[Marymog]

Outside of the Bible, is there any evidence at all (one way or another) from the First Century?
This sounds like an argument from silence.

Hello.

The defense for infant baptism began because some started arguing against it. It was an accepted practice in the 1st century based on what Scripture says: baptize all, baptism equated to circumcision, and entire families were baptized.

That is why the argument FOR infant baptism began so early on (2nd century) in The Church because of those that started rejecting it. The heretics had to be put in their place.