Answering Twelve Challenges to Universalism

[Pavel Mosko]

Here are the questions:​

1. “How should we interpret Jesus’s words regarding ‘hell’ or ‘Gehenna,’ ‘the outer darkness,’ ‘the fire that is not quenched,’ ‘the worm that does not die,’ and the like?”​

2. “If hell is a temporary state but heaven is a forever state, then why are both denoted by the same word as ‘eternal’?”​

3. “What about the ‘two ways’ theme in the Old and New Testaments?”​

4. “Why did Jesus need to die such a horrible, agonizing death on the cross for our sins?”​

5. “How should we interpret the end-times teaching of Revelation?”​

6. “Doesn’t the New Testament show that salvation is connected to faith?”​

7. “What’s the historic teaching on final salvation in the major branches of Christendom?”​

8. “What would happen if Christian congregations or denominations embraced universalism?”​

9. “What’s the final destiny of Satan and demons?”​

10. “Can sinful people make atonement or satisfaction for their own sins through their own sufferings?​

11. “Is it plausible to believe there will be a ‘second chance’ for salvation after death?”​

12. “Is universalism compatible with the Christian mandate to preach the gospel, practice self-denial, and suffer for Christ and the gospel?”​

I will probably respond to these questions myself. (shoot from the hip)
But there are comprehensive answers at this link.

Answering Twelve Challenges to Universalism

[

Interesting to see this. I have in fact criticized universalism on similar kind of grounds and blogged and threaded about it before.

Old posts I could dug up on Facebook
"
I am starting a posting series of why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation (That everybody will get saved eventually). For most Christians this is a no-brainer, yet there exists a certain faction of alternative theology people that live on the internet and in real life that just don't want to believe that Hell etc. might be eternal.....

1) The use of dross and chaff in the Bible. IF UR is correct, don't you think God would have communicated that to us? We think of recycling as a modern environmental thing but it's not, the ancients were even more into recycling than we are since production of materials in pre-industrial times was much more difficult. In Ancient times, rather than throwing out something of potential value it was more common to refurbish it, or at the very least try to recycle the material for another use. The question is if God intends to this for everybody in the afterlife, then why does God use terms like dross and chaff to describe the wicked in the Bible (things that were purely waste products and never recycled). Why wouldn't God use another metaphor like they are instruments or materials that are dull, or dirty, maybe a little rusty or moldy (But still salvageable)?"


Point 2) On why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation (Some people believe that everybody will be eventually saved, or that Hell is not eternal etc.)
If Jesus really wanted to teach us this teaching he could have done a better job constructing some of his parables; because any of his teachings gives the impression finality in the Afterlife etc. When I've talked and debated to people about this in the past they often speak in terms of hyperbole, figures of speech etc. As the Son of Man aka the perfect human, Jesus was a teacher without comparison, (To say nothing of his Divine attributes as the Son of God). As a person, who is far less capable I can actually write a parable that can illustrate a Universal Reconciliation type scenario. In the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins linked below, I would rewrite the parable where the foolish virgins are locked out for only the first day or two of the feast. They are bummed out for missing all the opening events and merriment but eventually when they enter the feast they forget all their unhappiness. So my question for those that belief this teaching is why was Christ the Greatest of all teachers not able to do this (if this teaching is indeed correct)?


Point 3) (Some Trick / Socratic Question for Universal Reconciliation believers)? If everything any anybody will be saved does that apply to Satan? If this is true why has this not already happened? (Satan has had many opportunities to repent). If this hasn't happened now, what is different about the after life that will necessitate a move of repentance? If Lucifer has not become repentant over time but, actually seems more entrenched in his position, don't you think the same is true of other sinners? There's actually a lot of interesting Church history and theology around this line of questioning that is worth a discussion!


Point 4) on why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation, 2 Potential Theological conundrums raised by it and a few side notes.
1) As much as it can be construed as an Act of Mercy, UR can actually be seen as an act of coercion (God is leaning on the person to make him or her say "uncle", so he/she will eventually do what he wants rather than eventually accepting their chose after he has wooed them for years on the Earth).

2) IF UR is true then that logically might mean that the eternal security of the the Church Triumphant might also be in jeopardy! (Now I don't believe that, but if UR is true on the hell side, then that might actually lead to that unfortunate drawback on the other.) Revelation 21:4 New International Version
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
3) I am also going to add a bullet point for those UR folks that like quoting the Church Fathers etc. I love the Fathers but some of them were very into Platonism. Platonism is great for many things (understanding a God that transcends His creation, is outside time etc.), but just as many modern Protestants I believe are deeply affected by their cultural philosophical heritage that affects their interpretation of the Bible, we likewise need to be realize that the same also applies to some of the Church Fathers.... (Certain quotes tend to reflect a Platonic interpretation of the Bible etc,)
4) Certain other Fathers, like Saint Isaac the Syrian, reflect a hope for the Salvation of humankind. This is very Christian attitude (of how we should orientate our lives) and something that we all should long for, pray for etc. It is not a dogmatic thing (something that is proclaimed that must happen as a official teaching), but a expression of love that we as Christians should have for the Lost.


Point 5) Why I don’t believe in Universal Reconciliation, Universal Reconciliation. Probably going to stop here (to not beat a dead horse). Besides some of the areas covered this forum discusses some other points of terminology I didn’t cover.
http://www.city-data.com/.../1238577-properly...
UR depicts God as being a God that is inarticulate, inept or even secretive or deceptive at communicating his thoughts to humanity when it comes to the afterlife because most of the terminology, idioms, and implied messages about the after life from Jesus, the apostles and rest of the Bible depicts. This is a God who is very different than the one the prophets and the apostles knew and preached!
Matthew 5:37New International Version (NIV)
37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Romans 10:20
And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
Amos 3:7
New International Version
Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:8
New International Version
Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?
Isaiah 45:19
New International Version
I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

 

[Jack]

Doubtful. (provide link to quote)

Quoting STV to me: "Death and Hell are demons that you worship."

Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope

Agree. Could heaven really be heaven if you knew that even one of your loved ones was in eternal torment? --- PARODY --- Imagined conversation between Jesus and a distraught mother in heaven. (parody) Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child. Jesus: Yes, I can see her now in torment. Mother...

www.christianityboard.com

#287

 

[St. SteVen]

So my question for those that belief this teaching is why was Christ the Greatest of all teachers not able to do this (if this teaching is indeed correct)?

A couple reasons I can think of.
1) It's there, we just have trouble seeing it when we were raised with a damnationist bias.
2) Even the scripture translation has a damnationist bias.
Example: The debate over Aionios (age) mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
3) Exaggerated language used to make a point. Not intended to be literal. See Edom below.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Edom

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Jack]

A couple reasons I can think of.
1) It's there, we just have trouble seeing it when we were raised with a damnationist bias.
2) Even the scripture translation has a damnationist bias.
Example: The debate over Aionios (age) mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
3) Exaggerated language used to make a point. Not intended to be literal. See Edom below.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Quoting STV: "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"!

 

[St. SteVen]

Quoting STV: "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"!

So you couldn't find that other quote? (liar)

 

[ProDeo]

Not true.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matthew 18:11 NKJV
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Add to your list -

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Still does not make me an Universalist

 

[Jack]

So you couldn't find that other quote? (liar)

So you're apologizing for your comment:

"Quoting STV to me: "Death and Hell are demons that you worship.""
Post #42!
"Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope"
Post #287!

 

[amigo de christo]

Add to your list -

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Still does not make me an Universalist

the problem with any bad doctrine is that if one believes it , they will surely find what they THINK supports it .
Example . Prosperity gospel . They find what THEY THINK supports it and will use such verses to support it .
The same with universalism . They even use scrips like as in adam all die
So in christ shall all be made alive to support universalism .
WHEN IN FACT its just showing us THE TRUTH that IN CHRIST , and one is not IN CHRIST if they BELIEVED NOT IN HIM .
lets ask ourselves a real simple question .
WHO and what did the apostels preach . WELL JESUS and the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
Now did they ever go around and give a false sense of hope to those who beleived not
OR DID THEY ALL WARN , even shaking the dust off their feet AS a testimony against such .
IN other words
THEY TRULY preached the DIRE NECESSITY TO BELIEVE ON JESUS
with the warning , and believe me it was a serious warning , to those who rejected Christ .
Not to mention LOOK at what JESUS said himself .
IF ye BELEVE NOT that i am HE you WILL die in your sins .
BUT it gets more grave . IT WILL be WORSE for such than ever it was for even sodom .
Paul warns of how much sorer a punishment will be upon all who trod Christ under foot . Worse than even
the death that came upon t hose who rejected the law . WORSE . not the same , not less than , WORSE .
THEY were very grave about the dire importance TO believe on CHRIST , TO continue to the end .
I dont see that mindset at all in this st steven . THEY never preach about the dire need to beleive on JESUS
but only go about trying to plant doubts about HOW its all gonna b e okay in the very end .
I NEVER SEEN JESUS teach that . IN fact With CHRIST and later the apostles
IT was basically BEIEVE ON JESUS OR PERISH . no hope did they ever give outside of having TO BELIEVE ON JESUS .
I suggest we all do the same my friend . JESUS I KNOW saves , fables do not save .
JESUS saves and they all knew YE HAD TO BELIEVE ON HIM to be saved . ITS why they all preached THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL .

 

[amigo de christo]

So you're apologizing for your comment:

"Quoting STV to me: "Death and Hell are demons that you worship.""
Post #42!
"Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope"
Post #287!

all this steven does is come along and act like he supports the bible and yet does nothing but try and plant doubts about it .
HE is of the DECONSTRUCTION mind . And a deconstruction mind leads to its own destruction . for it has been conned .
As in De conned struction . Never heed the words of a conner . IF that man had even a t enth of the zeal
for preaching JESUS as he do for planting doubts , He just might have been a soul winner indeed .
but all he is , for now , is a fable planter , a planter of doubt . De CON struction leads only to DESTRUCTION , as in their own
and all who sat under such .

 

[Jack]

all this steven does is come along and act like he supports the bible and yet does nothing but try and plant doubts about it .
HE is of the DECONSTRUCTION mind . And a deconstruction mind leads to its own destruction . for it has been conned .
As in De conned struction . Never heed the words of a conner . IF that man had even a t enth of the zeal
for preaching JESUS as he do for planting doubts , He just might have been a soul winner indeed .
but all he is , for now , is a fable planter , a planter of doubt . De CON struction leads only to DESTRUCTION , as in their own
and all who sat under such .

Isn't in interesting how God shows the WICKED fruits of Bible attackers for all to witness!

 

[St. SteVen]

Add to your list -

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That's a good one , thanks.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[Jack]

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

Why do you cite Scripture that you said "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"?????????? Who is your god? Don't know?

 

[amigo de christo]

Why do you cite Scripture that you said "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"?????????? Who is your god? Don't know?

You asked a real good question .
Lets examine this shall we .
Remember at the tree in the garden .
GOD had first told adam ye shall die if you eat of the tree in the midst of the garden .
GOD . In the day ye eat t hereof ye shall surely die .
Serpent , Ye shall not die .
JESUS , IF you BELIEVE NOT that i am HE ye shall die in your sins .
serpent , nay nay surely in the end ye shall live .
GOD revealing to JOHN . About all who made and lo ved a lie and about a lake of fire
in which it NEVER says they get out .
GOD . HE who adds to or takes from the words of THIS book .....................
Serpent , nay nay there is no such place , as he adds too and takes from the book of revelation .
JESUS . better is it to enter into life maimed than into hells fire where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched .
Serpent , nay , nay no such place exists .
SEE THE PROBLEM YET . this other god is NOT POINTING THEM TO THE DIRE NECESSITY
to have had TO BELEIVE on CHRIST in THIS LIFE . ITS GIVING OUT a false hope .
For it do desire the death of all .
NOW GOD , HE so loved the world that HE DID SEND THE SON
so that all who do ...........................who do what , BELIEVE in HIM shall NOT PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
Paul to the unbelieving jews , YOUR BLOOD be upon your own heads .
Paul again to the unbelieving , Since you count yourselves unworthy of EVERLASTING LIFE .............
YOU SEE they warned . st steven only gives out a false hope at ones end .
JESUS I KNOW SAV ES . fables I KNOW DO NOT SAV E .

 

[amigo de christo]

Why do you cite Scripture that you said "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"?????????? Who is your god? Don't know?

His mission is to rather than CONFIRM THE TRUTH it is to plant doubts .
To plant unbelief in what GOD INSPIRED and BELEIF in what man says .
De CON struction leads only to DESTRUCTION .
Destruction unto all who made and loved a lie . It is supposed to be LET GOD be true and every man a liar .
Yet to many it has become Let humanity be true and the words inspired by GOD twisted .
This is not gonna end well for st st even , IF , IF he does not get off this path .

 

[Jack]

You asked a real good question .
Lets examine this shall we .
Remember at the tree in the garden .
GOD had first told adam ye shall die if you eat of the tree in the midst of the garden .
GOD . In the day ye eat t hereof ye shall surely die .
Serpent , Ye shall not die .
JESUS , IF you BELIEVE NOT that i am HE ye shall die in your sins .
serpent , nay nay surely in the end ye shall live .
GOD revealing to JOHN . About all who made and lo ved a lie and about a lake of fire
in which it NEVER says they get out .
GOD . HE who adds to or takes from the words of THIS book .....................
Serpent , nay nay there is no such place , as he adds too and takes from the book of revelation .
JESUS . better is it to enter into life maimed than into hells fire where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched .
Serpent , nay , nay no such place exists .
SEE THE PROBLEM YET . this other god is NOT POINTING THEM TO THE DIRE NECESSITY
to have had TO BELEIVE on CHRIST in THIS LIFE . ITS GIVING OUT a false hope .
For it do desire the death of all .
NOW GOD , HE so loved the world that HE DID SEND THE SON
so that all who do ...........................who do what , BELIEVE in HIM shall NOT PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
Paul to the unbelieving jews , YOUR BLOOD be upon your own heads .
Paul again to the unbelieving , Since you count yourselves unworthy of EVERLASTING LIFE .............
YOU SEE they warned . st steven only gives out a false hope at ones end .
JESUS I KNOW SAV ES . fables I KNOW DO NOT SAV E .

We must assume that Bible attackers are messengers of Satan, leading people to Hell Fire.

 

[Jack]

His mission is to rather than CONFIRM THE TRUTH it is to plant doubts .
To plant unbelief in what GOD INSPIRED and BELEIF in what man says .
De CON struction leads only to DESTRUCTION .
Destruction unto all who made and loved a lie . It is supposed to be LET GOD be true and every man a liar .
Yet to many it has become Let humanity be true and the words inspired by GOD twisted .
This is not gonna end well for st st even , IF , IF he does not get off this path .

Amen, a messenger of Satan, trying to lead people to Hell Fire.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen, a messenger of Satan, trying to lead people to Hell Fire.

paul did warn the church , did he not , that even the minstirs of satan can APPEAR as men of righteousness .
YOU GO and YOU LOOK at our many churches today . You see what these leaders do teach unto this people .
SEe what many others also try and teach unto this people .
A LIE and lies , a fable and fables that will save absolutely none of them . THIS DOES NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT of GOD DO .
But another spirit sure does .
Many are the co workers of darkness . Every religoin NOT OF GOD is of darkness .
And thus every religion that DENEIS JESUS IS THE CHRIST , DENEIS one must believe on HIM ,
Denies the WORD and words of GOD , Denies JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD
Denies the words and teachings of CHRIST , of GOD , OF the apostels in that bible
IS NOT OF GOD . But is of the darkness . And even many within christendom are still in and thus of
the darkness . That is not said to condmen any , but rather TO Expose what is contrary to GOD
and to expose all false teachers , lies and fables . This generation is in dire deadly trouble.
The blind within christendom now lead the blind false religoins and this world Right
to the very day of its own destruction by promising them PEACE N SAFETY .
And yet on that path to peace and so called safety , WHAT A BROAD BROAD ROAD has ensued .
THE BROAD ROAD . only that be the road to DESTRUCTION , NOT TO GOD , NOT TO LIFE ETERNAL .

 

[Lizbeth]

Hard to say for sure, but...

But if Jesus expects us to love our enemies, what should he do with his?

I expect an ABSOLUTE triumph of grace at the end of the age of restoration.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

[

Jesus showed us what the restoration will look like at His return – it will be the Lord (His angels) gathering OUT of all creation all who sin and defile it and destroying them with fire (our God is a consuming fire) until only what is pure and holy and undefiled and heavenly remains (everything that can be shaken will shaken until only what can’t be shaken remains):

Mat 13:37-43

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



2Pe 3:3-13

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.



Gal 6:7-8

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1Co 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Gal 5:21

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Please take note with me that in 2 Peter 3 where IT SPEAKS CLEARLY OF PERDITION (destruction) OF UNGODLY MEN……….THIS IS IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT IT ALSO SAYS IN THAT SAME PASSAGE THAT GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH. That just means the Lord does not desire their destruction but would rather they repent - however it is clear that the ungodly and unrepentant ARE going to perish in spite of God not desiring it. I see no cryptic or deep mystery with this, God has not hidden this truth from us….on the contrary He is sounding out a very plain and clear warning.

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus showed us what the restoration will look like at His return – it will be the Lord (His angels) gathering OUT of all creation all who sin and defile it and destroying them with fire (our God is a consuming fire) until only what is pure and holy and undefiled and heavenly remains (everything that can be shaken will shaken until only what can’t be shaken remains):

Mat 13:37-43

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



2Pe 3:3-13

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.



Gal 6:7-8

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1Co 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Gal 5:21

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Please take note with me that in 2 Peter 3 where IT SPEAKS CLEARLY OF PERDITION (destruction) OF UNGODLY MEN……….THIS IS IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT IT ALSO SAYS IN THAT SAME PASSAGE THAT GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH. That just means the Lord does not desire their destruction but would rather they repent - however it is clear that the ungodly and unrepentant ARE going to perish in spite of God not desiring it. I see no cryptic or deep mystery with this, God has not hidden this truth from us….on the contrary He is sounding out a very plain and clear warning.

To the trenches dear sister . we have us a gospel to defend .
JESUS , I KNOW SAVES . And by that same grace i know ONE MUST BELEIVE ON HIM to be saved .
JESUS saves , but a fable only graves .
And GOD cannot lie and is not the author of confusion . But you can bet the devil sure knows how to lie and confuse .
Our only HOPE BE GOD and THUS BE CHRIST . HE is able to keep us from falling .
Let us take HEED unto HIM and unto the doctrine HE DID SO INSPIRE .
For many are the workers of darkness and even many of them can also wear wool .
The ultimate deciever always comes under guise he is with you , for you and yet he will speak CONTRARY
to what is written , even using the scrips by which he twists to do so .
A deciever does NOT CONFIRM or AFFIRM the TRUTH . IT simply at most uses truths to plant A LIE .
That is how the sepent has always worked , ev en from the time in the garden .
And many of its co workers now even use , what little they do use , of the bible
in order to deconstruct , in order to lead one into ..........................UNBELIEF . Not in what it says BUT IN WHAT GOD SAID .

 

[Lizbeth]

6. “Doesn’t the New Testament show that salvation is connected to faith?”​

​

It is undeniably true that the New Testament does indeed emphasize a connection between salvation and belief in Christ; however, this poses no problem whatsoever for Christian universalism, which affirms that all will eventually be saved because all will eventually believe, even if only in the next life. Paul teaches that whoever “confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord…will be saved” (Rom. 10:9) and that “no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3), yet this same apostle confidently teaches also that “every tongue,” even those of the individuals “under the earth” (i.e., in the realm of the dead), will one day “confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” (Phil. 2:10-11). McClymond offers no substantive response to the post-mortem faith suggestion here, but simply says, “see #11.” So we will address his counterarguments when we get there.

But here in this section, McClymond lists three solutions (two of which are very rarely, if ever, suggested by universalists) and simply dismisses them with another bald assertion: “None of these three options is congruent with Scripture.” The shallowness and misrepresentations continue when McClymond says, “Some universalists believe God saves people who don’t believe and don’t want to be saved; this sounds a lot like coerced salvation.” That does indeed sound a lot like coerced salvation, yet, in reality, there has not been a single Christian universalist (at least that I know of) who has ever said that God saves people against their will, and since McClymond fails to cite even one example, this can be properly designated as yet another strawman.

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Scripture holds out no hope of there being further opportunity to be saved in the "next life". When once the Master has arisen and shut to the door there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth of those who are thrust out of the kingdom.....and it says elsewhere that it is appointed unto man but once to die and then the JUDGMENT. The rich man who had died and found himself in hell was full of regret, but there was no opportunity given for him to get out of there.