Anti-reformers month
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It takes a craftsman to build a sturdy barn but a jackass can kick it down
why are you attacking Christ?
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Anyone else weary of the constant personal attack threads against Protestants? Anyone?
You have no peace in Christ when you commit day after day to that agenda .
They attacked and rejected Christ!
They started new churches!
The created new doctrine!
how is that reformation?
where does the Bible say to have a reformation?
truth is from God and is immutable!
truth cannot be reformed
God cannot reveal error or be in error!
Only Christ has authority to found the church Matt 16:18 and His church cannot be reformed it is prepared by God and comes down from heaven the spotless bride of Christ!
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4
They started new churches!
The created new doctrine!
how is that reformation?
where does the Bible say to have a reformation?
truth is from God and is immutable!
truth cannot be reformed
God cannot reveal error or be in error!
Only Christ has authority to found the church Matt 16:18 and His church cannot be reformed it is prepared by God and comes down from heaven the spotless bride of Christ!
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4
Maybe, instead of constantly putting down everyone who doesn't believe like you do, I'm including protestants and Jews here, you could try to find the common ground which, we as co-heirs of grace share in Jesus Messiah, there'd be a bit more peace around here.
Though I'm a far cry from perfect, I think the apostle Paul was onto something when he said:
"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2 and again:
"3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:3-6 and again:
"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7
Shalom.
You ever hear of people giving money to help people out in the Non-Biblical Lie Of Purgatory?
The attacks are on “ false , perverted Gospels” ......those so- called “gospels” that ADD to the True Gospel Of Grace and cause those that adhere to these False Doctrines to “ Fall From Grace” and not even be aware of it.......don't take my word for anything —- Read Galatians , emphasizing Chapter 5..... a ten year old could figure it out....if they have “ eyes to see”....... many don’t.
Unity requires truth and the same doctrine or faith revealed by God
it is unlawful to refuse to believe a truth revealed by God or to refuse the church founded by Christ and both are immutable and irreformable
another accusation!
purgatory is biblical
Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)
St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.
Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)
St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.
Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.
Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales commented:
It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)
Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:
ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)
Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)
Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):
Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)
Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:
These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)
Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.
They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)
Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)
Indulgences
1st of all these are based on misunderstandings and accusations
Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences nor the forgiveness of sin!
Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace!
An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29
Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of saint peters, not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement
You did something and got a favorable response, like buying a dozen dognuts and get one free, they may accuse you cannot selling 13 but you actually only sold 12 and gave one free.
Salvation is of grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, but the temporal punishment due to sin Christ did not take away, just like he did not take away our sin nature and restore up to the state of innocence in the garden.
Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.
And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!
I stand corrected ! if the “ Venerable” Bede and the “ Great” St Gregory say it’s true ......it MUST be true! Lol.....what a crock.....and what an insult to the “ ALL SUFFICIENT” Blood Of Christ....
Even Satan rolls his eyes and can’t believe anybody bought” THIS” Hogwash!
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
"...you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles." Revelation 2:2
it is part of God’s Providence merited by the blood of Christ Jn 1:16-17
Tell me why does Christ sacrifice and blood not restore us back the state we were in before the fall?
Those are the successors of the apostles you are making fun of, rejecting them is rejection of Christ
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Eph 5:32
Saul was persecuting the church, and Christ said “why persecute me”? Acts 9:4
Rebellion and rejection of the church or apostles or council or teaching of church or apostles or council is rebellion and rejection of Christ!
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
The church and the apostles exist by his commands and authority! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
An attack on the church is an attack on Christ!
There is an unbreakable union between Christ and His Holy Church!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Gates of hell shall NOT PREVAIL!
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4 Jn 20:21-23
Eph 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Isa 22:21-22
eph 2:20
Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...
The church is the ark of salvation, to attack the church is to attack salvation!
God always establishes peace & order in the obedience to hierarchical authority!
Obedience:
Matt 18:17 hear the church
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Matt 28:19 teaching them to obey all I have commanded
So tell me who is it that are going to obey and submit?
Obeying the apostles and the churchis obeying Christ!
Rejecting the apostles and the church is rejecting Christ!
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Eph 5:32
Saul was persecuting the church, and Christ said “why persecute me”? Acts 9:4
Rebellion and rejection of the church or apostles or council or teaching of church or apostles or council is rebellion and rejection of Christ!
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
The church and the apostles exist by his commands and authority! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
An attack on the church is an attack on Christ!
There is an unbreakable union between Christ and His Holy Church!
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Gates of hell shall NOT PREVAIL!
There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4 Jn 20:21-23
Eph 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Isa 22:21-22
eph 2:20
Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...
The church is the ark of salvation, to attack the church is to attack salvation!
God always establishes peace & order in the obedience to hierarchical authority!
Obedience:
Matt 18:17 hear the church
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Matt 28:19 teaching them to obey all I have commanded
So tell me who is it that are going to obey and submit?
Obeying the apostles and the churchis obeying Christ!
Rejecting the apostles and the church is rejecting Christ!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This kind of talk might scare you. But it does not scare us. We know better.
You just have to understand that the instant someone says you're not saved unless you're a part of my church we stop listening.
making fun of apostles, fathers & doctors of the church and saints is making fun of Christ
Personifies saul:
A fundamentalist going by spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement from scripture, or the humility to hear the teaching of Christ through the church of His apostles?
Obedience of faith: rom 16:26
We must be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Jn 14:6
Instructed: Lk 1:4 acts 8:31
Teach all nations: Matt 28:19
He who hears you (the apostles) hears me: lk 10:16
Hear the church: Matt 18:17
Church is the pillar and ground of truth: 1 Tim 3:14
Christ and his church are one, the church is an extension of Christ through the whole world and all time: acts 9:4
Not scripture plus private judgement
But guided by the teaching office of Christ and his church!
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.
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