Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers. (Pastors/Bishops) ….. Preachers

[101G]

Since there is a lot of discussion about Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers, and the rest. Do we really understand what an apostle is, or a prophet, or a teacher, or even an evangelist? Who hold these titles, and who qualify for them. let’s see what God word says about these mention above.

Scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”.

God have set in his church, those listed above, so a christian I must acknowledge this.

second he sets an ORDER.

The reason why I started this topic, it's to show us that these positions, or titles are “GIFTS”, and it is the GIFT who works in us.

Please understand, we will be discussing the Biblical meaning of these titles, or positions, or works, or deeds, and not what a local congregation, or some religious denomination establish.

Greatly appreciate your contribution with scripture.

 

[101G]

I would like to start off the discussion with the term Pastor. Because today, this is what most christian often hear of, some maybe apostle, or prophet. but it's the term Pastor we hear the Most.

Question. What is the role, or duty of the Pastor in the Church of the LIVING God Notice I said in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, not in a local congregation, or some religious denomination. Add your scripture if you have any. And please understand this is not, I repeat, this is not a test of your KNOWLEDGE, but seeking the truth in LOVE.

second, in 1 Corinthians 12:28, did one notice the term "PASTOR" missing for the setting or ordaining in the church?.

PCY

 

[Helen]

Looks good...watching and reading. Thank you.

 

[FHII]

Question. What is the role, or duty of the Pastor in the Church of the LIVING God Notice I said in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, not in a local congregation, or some religious denomination. Add your scripture if you have any. And please understand this is not, I repeat, this is not a test of your KNO

I am not part of a denomination so I have nothing to add to that part. But I am part of a local denomination. Pastors look over a local denomination. That may be a few mile radius or it may be a more global type of ministry. So what are you getting at if you aren't speaking of local congergations?

You are starting off with pastors, yet you are excluding the only verse in the KJV which mentions "pastors" which is Eph 4:11.

[I do not want to start a this version vs. That version debate. I only say its the only verse in the KJ because I am not as familiar with other versions]

The purpose of a pastor is clearly listed in Eph 4. He is part of a team whose goal is perfecting the saints. Apostles, proohets, evangelists, pastors and tteachers all play a part.
Apostles are the builders. They are first in charge. 1 cor 12:28 verifies that. They set the doctrines and structure. Prophets give prophecies. This is direction. Where the Church and individual is going. Evangelists are those called to bring in sheep. Fishermen, so to speak. Pastors are tteachers and overseers of daily operations. Not only of preaching the gospel but also of running the Church (in which he can delegate tasks) and handling personal problems of the congegation. He is head of the local Church Government under the watch of the Apostle. Teachers are just that. Those who help bring novices to knowledge .

I don't suppose my explanation is going to be accepted because some don't believe local congegations are needed. But i believe they are.

 

[101G]

I am not part of a denomination so I have nothing to add to that part. But I am part of a local denomination. Pastors look over a local denomination. That may be a few mile radius or it may be a more global type of ministry. So what are you getting at if you aren't speaking of local congergations?

You are starting off with pastors, yet you are excluding the only verse in the KJV which mentions "pastors" which is Eph 4:11.

[I do not want to start a this version vs. That version debate. I only say its the only verse in the KJ because I am not as familiar with other versions]

The purpose of a pastor is clearly listed in Eph 4. He is part of a team whose goal is perfecting the saints. Apostles, proohets, evangelists, pastors and tteachers all play a part.
Apostles are the builders. They are first in charge. 1 cor 12:28 verifies that. They set the doctrines and structure. Prophets give prophecies. This is direction. Where the Church and individual is going. Evangelists are those called to bring in sheep. Fishermen, so to speak. Pastors are tteachers and overseers of daily operations. Not only of preaching the gospel but also of running the Church (in which he can delegate tasks) and handling personal problems of the congegation. He is head of the local Church Government under the watch of the Apostle. Teachers are just that. Those who help bring novices to knowledge .

I don't suppose my explanation is going to be accepted because some don't believe local congegations are needed. But i believe they are.

Thank you and BG/aka AG for your interest. yes it seem like the pastor is only mention in Eph 4. but we will see the pastor in many more places that just in Eph4.

as said in the OP, the Pastor, or Pastoring is a GIFT, NOT the man or woman, as we will see. scripture, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding”.

the first thing to note here is that Pastor are given. and in that giving "THE" Pastor feed "HIS" sheep. he feed "HIS" sheep with KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING* remember this scripture, we'll be coming back to it often.

Now a Revelation about the Pastor. 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”. to the natural eye one would say "the pastor is not there. Oh yes he is.

let's take this one step at a time. the apostle Paul is a pastor, as well as a prophet, as well as a teacher. let's see it. the very next chapter, 1 Corinthians 13:1 & 2 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, (STOP, the apostle just told us he's a prophet, he have the gift), and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; (STOP again, the apostle just told us that he's a Pastor, remember, Jeremiah 3:15 pastor feed with KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDING, read that verse again. and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing". do you see the pastor now. the pastor can be an apostle, a prophet, or a teacher. let's see Paul as a teacher. 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church". so the apostle Paul is a teacher, a prophet, and an apostle, all these title are set, or ordain in the CHURCH. do one see the Pastor now? by understanding Spiritual things, the Holy Ghost will reveal these thing to us.

our next step is to see this GIFT of Pastoring in clear view. this was "PROMISE unto us in this GRACE period in Jeremiah, as well in Joel. I'll let you digest this first.

PCY.

 

[ScottA]

I would like to start off the discussion with the term Pastor. Because today, this is what most christian often hear of, some maybe apostle, or prophet. but it's the term Pastor we hear the Most.

Question. What is the role, or duty of the Pastor in the Church of the LIVING God Notice I said in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, not in a local congregation, or some religious denomination. Add your scripture if you have any. And please understand this is not, I repeat, this is not a test of your KNOWLEDGE, but seeking the truth in LOVE.

second, in 1 Corinthians 12:28, did one notice the term "PASTOR" missing for the setting or ordaining in the church?.

PCY

The role of Pastor is there (in Ephesians 4:11). It refers to one who leads the flock by green pastures and still waters. The job of such a one, is to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (and all things will then be added by the Lord).

 

[FHII]

Well before we go on, can you tell me why local congregations are excluded if that is what you are saying? Seems to me that the Apostle and Pastor Paul liked the idea.

 

[101G]

Well before we go on, can you tell me why local congregations are excluded if that is what you are saying? Seems to me that the Apostle and Pastor Paul liked the idea.

thanks for the response. I'm zeroing in on what the truth is. the Pastor is the Gift, not individual men or women as some local congregations believe. the only Pastor in the Church of the Lord Jesus is Christ himself. if any man or woman think they are the pastor of a local congregations they are in ERROR. it is the Holy Spirit in them who is the Pastor, the promise Gift.

Let's prove this out by scriptures.

on the day of Pentecost was it Peter and the rest of the apostles speaking in tongue. but was it them who had the ability to speak in tongue?, let's see, Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”. it was the Spirit who enable them. this is one the GIFT of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Here's the Revelation to this. the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. and this prophecy is found in Joel 2:28 & 29 the out pouring of the Spirit which was fulfilled on Pentecost. now, I ask, do you see speaking in tongue in Joel 2:28 & 29? I do, but do you.

here's the revelation. speaking in tongues is in the Spirit, which was poured out. it's one of the GIFTS that the Spirit gives to enable the user. the apostle Peter said, "the Spirit gave them utterance". if one was looking for the words "speaking in tongues" in Joel 2 you will not see it physically. for it's one of the Spiritual Gifts that was poured out, it is Spiritually discern. The apostle Paul reveals it to us. scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues”. all these gifts are listed here in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

this is why the apostle Paul said, 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began". see, we in this time of GRACE was call to be the vessel of the Lord Jesus who is Spirit, (his return on Pentecost), so that he may WORK through us, his WORKMANSHIP. as one post who didn't understand the verse he posted. listen, Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". the key word here is "CREATED", we're NEW CREATURES in Christ Jesus, he redeemed us, he cleaned us up and now he have set us apart for his WORK. this is our CALLING in this GRACE PERIOD. scripture, John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". why did he go to his father? answer to be GLORIFIED in the Spirit (John 17:5). hence his return in the Spirit. now he can be in EVERY believer doing his WORK, redeeming , saving, teaching, preaching, caring, Loving for his people. in flesh he could only work one thing at a time. but in Spirit, filling believers he can do greater works by each believer, no matter where they may be. Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth". see, we have no power, but the power that dwelleth in us. and it is not us who preach, teach, or pastor, it's him the promise Power.

see how the bible come full circle. it is the out pouring of the Spirit in believers. which answer the apostle question of succession. it is the Spirit in us who calls us for a certain work of him to do through us. for we're his hands and feet. for the Lord Jesus is the apostle who calls, and ordain, and make or set in his CHURCH. Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus".

as said by another poster, we all are holy priest, set aside for different FUNCTION for the Lord.

knowing that the Pastor is the Lord Jesus who feed his sheep through his WORKMANSHIP of man and women in the ministry. this promise Gift is for all of his priest, scripture, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". is the lord Jesus still calling people unto himself today? yes, so these Gifts are you today.

now that we know that the Pastor is the Gift the Spirit. do one see the see the Pastor in Joel 2:28 & 29, and if so, do one see the Pastoral GIFT in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 in verses 7-11. once one find the Pastoral GIFT in the listing, then we'll move on to the Bishop.

PCY.

 

[FHII]

thanks for the response. I'm zeroing in on what the truth is. the Pastor is the Gift, not individual men or women as some local congregations believe. the only Pastor in the Church of the Lord Jesus is Christ himself.

Yea... That is where i thought where going. This all is a dialogue about not needing a pastor who is a common man. Its all about not having to follow human leadership. Its going to end up in a plea to follow "the spirit" which really just ends up in every man doing what is right in their own eyes.

Folks, I follow a pastor who is an apostle. Not one of the original 12.... But one called.

I am truly blessed, but I am going ri be a thorn in this conversation. Jesus is bot your pastor. He is not your apostle. He callled men to rhat position.

 

[101G]

Yea... That is where i thought where going. This all is a dialogue about not needing a pastor who is a common man. Its all about not having to follow human leadership. Its going to end up in a plea to follow "the spirit" which really just ends up in every man doing what is right in their own eyes.

Folks, I follow a pastor who is an apostle. Not one of the original 12.... But one called.

I am truly blessed, but I am going ri be a thorn in this conversation. Jesus is bot your pastor. He is not your apostle. He callled men to rhat position.

First thanks for the reply. I believe you misinterpreted what I been saying. God use common people. listen, 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ". Paul follower Christ, in doing so we follow Christ after him as well as who God appoint or ordain.

Now concering your plea to follow the spirit that you should do, because if the Spirit is in that man or woman do you not follow?.

I'm sad to hear this from you. as I detailed in the OP God have ORDER in his church. he chose his apostles, or prophets, or teacher who he desire.

and true I hope you don't follow human leadership, you will wind up in the ditch. follow God the Spirit, as Paul followed the Spirit. likewise follow who the Spirit leads.

I think you missed the point, but i hope you see the truth.

PCY.

 

[FHII]

First thanks for the reply. I believe you misinterpreted what I been saying. God use common people. listen, 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ". Paul follower Christ, in doing so we follow Christ after him as well as who God appoint or ordain.

Now concering your plea to follow the spirit that you should do, because if the Spirit is in that man or woman do you not follow?.

I'm sad to hear this from you. as I detailed in the OP God have ORDER in his church. he chose his apostles, or prophets, or teacher who he desire.

and true I hope you don't follow human leadership, you will wind up in the ditch. follow God the Spirit, as Paul followed the Spirit. likewise follow who the Spirit leads.

I think you missed the point, but i hope you see the truth.

PCY.

I am all for following the spirit, but God gives gifts to men. Pastors are gifts to men. Isn't that what you said?

There is an earthly ministry to follow. We are given apostles prophets evangelists pastora and teachers. They are men... Not fo)owing them is not following Gods ordained plan.

This is not following men, but goly men moved on by the spirit.

 

[mjrhealth]

This is not following men, but goly men moved on by the spirit.

That is an assumption. As I posted in another post, ever noticed after teh birth of Jesus, no more prophets where ever mentioned in the bible.

 

[soul man]

Since there is a lot of discussion about Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers, and the rest. Do we really understand what an apostle is, or a prophet, or a teacher, or even an evangelist? Who hold these titles, and who qualify for them. let’s see what God word says about these mention above.

Scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”.

God have set in his church, those listed above, so a christian I must acknowledge this.

second he sets an ORDER.

The reason why I started this topic, it's to show us that these positions, or titles are “GIFTS”, and it is the GIFT who works in us.

Please understand, we will be discussing the Biblical meaning of these titles, or positions, or works, or deeds, and not what a local congregation, or some religious denomination establish.

Greatly appreciate your contribution with scripture.

The gifted one is "Christ in you," we become swallowed up by Christ as His life who is our only life, Gal.2:20, becomes all we are.
We have no life of our own, only one life, Christ in you the hope of glory.
"He that hath the Son hath life."

 

[soul man]

That is an assumption. As I posted in another post, ever noticed after teh birth of Jesus, no more prophets where ever mentioned in the bible.

And notice the offices are just "until the body grows into unity and knowledge."
So basically the gifts and particular office are for babes.

 

[soul man]

And a great subject, thank God for the preaching-teaching of the many dedicated ministry workers who give their heart and soul to find a message to feed the people.

 

[FHII]

And notice the offices are just "until the body grows into unity and knowledge."
So basically the gifts and particular office are for babes.

That's only a partial quote. The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the body of Christ. It then explains that to be "till we all come to unity of the faith and knowledge of Jesus".

Its speaking of the entire body, not just "babes".

 

[prashanthd]

This discussion seems to be progressing fast! I think some of you are/were related to such ministry so it might be easier for you with your prior knowledge. I think that you have to take a step further and compare the knowledge or your conclusions with the present situations and provide opinions as to why things are not what they were supposed to be and suggestions on how they can be improved and most importantly, what could a layman do as an alternative.

Ecclesiastes 12
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

I am personally never been enthusiastic of speaking to a Church Pastor(excluding this forum perhaps). In our local language they are referred to as 'shepherds of a congregation' Many years back when I read the role of God as a shepherd and later when I personally encountered our church Pastor, I had a great regard for him. Soon I kept myself at a distance because of the circumstances these days. I think the Pastor has become almost a democratic leader being pulled by the members of the congregation and the pastors above him. A person might join as a Pastor with great expectations, and discover that he has a very limited scope. I appreciate if you say that it is a gift, then he will not be disappointed to leave a congregation and can use his gift anywhere in this wide world. Few years back I was coincidentally searching on YouTube with key words "church fight" and I came across many videos and I was not surprised.

Proverbs 25
27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.

I think the role of the Pastor is give all glory to God always before the congregation as God is the greatest shepherd who neither slumbers nor sleeps (Ps 121:8, Is 40:18,28) When a Pastor's role is limited or not fulfilled, it will directly impact the families and the personal lives of the members. I see people come to Church with hope and leave with dismay. They do not know how to face the wickedness in the society, then they look towards other ministries but still that is not of much help. Some put more faith in the words of the speaker and the rest tend to lose faith. I personally have a great difficulty to convince my Dad that he has to focus more on what the Bible says rather than the speaker.

Now considering the circumstances these days what you think is the role of a Pastor and what is an alternative if this role is not fulfilled? Do you think that the role of Pastors is more demanding today when compared to what it was earlier? How flexible is their role in guiding or meeting the requirements of the congregation?
Please take an extra mile along with the Word of God.

All glory to God.

 

[soul man]

That's only a partial quote. The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the body of Christ. It then explains that to be "till we all come to unity of the faith and knowledge of Jesus".

Its speaking of the entire body, not just "babes".

Are you relating to the entire body; as those that attend a building?

 

[FHII]

Are you relating to entire body; as those that attend a building?

It works on two scales just as it did in Paul's day: 1. Until all Christians are perfected (and again, Eph 4:13 explains that) around the world; and 2. For those who attend a Church at the local level. And I dare say the latter is the more practical application.

Paul was addressing the Church at Ephesus. But he was also working with other Churches at the time. So the ministry given is in place until the last Saint is brought in. So if you are looking for an ending to the ministry it probably isn't going to happen soon.

 

[101G]

I am all for following the spirit, but God gives gifts to men. Pastors are gifts to men. Isn't that what you said?

There is an earthly ministry to follow. We are given apostles prophets evangelists pastora and teachers. They are men... Not fo)owing them is not following Gods ordained plan.

This is not following men, but goly men moved on by the spirit.

GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the reply. you still didn't get is right. the GIFT are in men, understand now?. you me nor any man or woman is the Gift, and you don't have the gift for yourself. to used as you please, as he please, which is his will and his purpose and Grace.

this is the problem in the churches to day, not the Church, but churches, the local congregation. men think that they are the leaders in God church, nope. men and women are ambassadors of Christ, which speak not of themselves, but of he who sends them.

There is an earthly ministry to follow. We are given apostles prophets evangelists pastora and teachers. They are men... Not fo)owing them is not following Gods ordained plan.

don't take this the wrong way, but do you understand what MINISTRY means? TO "SERVE". this is another problem, people think that ministry means to LEAD, take charge, that's not the case always. Luke 22:24 "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 "And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 "But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth".

people need to keep that in mind, we're to serve one another, and with these gift, which is the Holy Spirit, help to improve life, not to rule lives.

Now to stay on topic, the pastoral Gift is a TEACHING ministry. again, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding".

instead of a nice argument, let see if we can learn anything from the discussion. did you find the PASTORAL Gift in 1 Corinthians chapter 12?.

if you didn't, it's right there in verse 8. now we will see the SERVITUDE role of the Pastor.

PCY.