Apostolic Succession.

[shepherdsword]

What are you trying to say? Clarify yourself, please, thanks.

It's simple to see that the popes listed were not successors of the apostles. I suggest you read and do some thinking before snapping to respond 10 seconds after a post is made. It makes you look like you are triggered and reacting instead of having a thoughtful dialogue

What those verses say is true, as is what Jesus said to Peter: ""I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which means giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven."

If Jesus' statement concerning authority is true then the keys to the kingdom cannot mean that the holder has dominion over the rest of the apostles. In fact, Peter was rebuked by Paul for falling into false doctrine thus proving he was not infallible.

Gal 2:11-12 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

 

[Origen]

If Jesus' statement concerning authority is true then the keys to the kingdom cannot mean that the holder has dominion over the rest of the apostles.

Your interpretation is wrong, because Jesus said to Peter, not any of the other apostles, "I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which means giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven.

It's simple to see that the popes listed were not successors of the apostles.

How so?

I suggest you read and do some thinking before snapping to respond 10 seconds after a post is made. It makes you look like you are triggered and reacting instead of having a thoughtful dialogue

I asked you to clarify yourself because you needed to and you did, so again, thank you.

 

[shepherdsword]

Your interpretation is wrong, because Jesus said to Peter, not any of the other apostles, "I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which means giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven.

You keep quoting that verse like a parrot. Even though is has been proven that the keys of the kingdom didn't give him the right to be exalted over the rest of the apostles. That is a RCC misinterpretation. If such keys gave him dominion he would have not been rebuked by Paul and he would have held preeminence over the gentile gospel instead of being sent to the Jews

Gal 2:7-8 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

 

[Origen]

[...] it has been proven that the keys of the kingdom didn't give him the right to be exalted over the rest of the apostles.

Jesus said to Peter, "I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which means giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven, because He continued saying to him, "and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in Heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in Heaven.”

 

[shepherdsword]

Jesus said to Peter, "I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which is about giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven, because He continued saying to him, "and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in Heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in Heaven.”

He not only gave the other apostles the authority to bind demons....he gave 70 ordinary disciples the power as well. This destroys the errant RCC interpretation

Mt 10:5-8
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Lk 10:1-8
After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Mk 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yea I read it and responded to it saying that I don't see Buddhist monks—who are also supposed to be celibate—receiving the same amount of hate or the same accusations that they are automatically too lustful to control themselves when they are around...whoever. Celibacy doesn't automatically make one uncontrollably lustful as you assume.

That's insane.

post 134

 

[Rockerduck]

I don't think we are given any indication in Acts 1 that the apostles were rebelling against God. What in that chapter makes you think that they were? It wasn't the casting of lots; we read in the Old Testament of lots being used in godly ways.

Nope. I was just showing that when the apostles took the reins from Jesus and chose a replacement on their own, that they shouldn't have. Not so much rebellion, but still, they should have prayed and waited.

 

[Rockerduck]

Jesus said to Peter, "I tell you that you are Peter [...] I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which is about giving him the authority to make decisions on earth that will be reflected in Heaven, because He continued saying to him, "and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in Heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in Heaven.”

This is plural, Jesus says all of you shall bind on earth, etc. Ye is plural, Jesus is talking to a group. When you have the Holy Spirit, you have the keys to Heaven. All who are Holy Spirit filled will bind on earth and loose in Heaven.

Matthew 18:18 -KJV- Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[David Lamb]

Nope. I was just showing that when the apostles took the reins from Jesus and chose a replacement on their own, that they shouldn't have. Not so much rebellion, but still, they should have prayed and waited.

But they didn't choose a replacement on their own, did they? Casting lots was a method commanded by God on several occasions, such as the choosing of the scapegoat:

“"Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.” (Le 16:8 NKJV)

In choosing a replacement for Judas, Peter refers to the Old Testament for authority to do so:

“"For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’” (Ac 1:20 NKJV)

We don't read of any condemnation by God of their action in doing so. And they did pray:

“And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen” (Ac 1:24 NKJV)

 

[Rockerduck]

But they didn't choose a replacement on their own, did they? Casting lots was a method commanded by God on several occasions, such as the choosing of the scapegoat:

“"Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.” (Le 16:8 NKJV)

In choosing a replacement for Judas, Peter refers to the Old Testament for authority to do so:

“"For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’” (Ac 1:20 NKJV)

We don't read of any condemnation by God of their action in doing so. And they did pray:

“And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen” (Ac 1:24 NKJV)

The apostles were not priests. Only Jesus fulfills prophecy, Peter decided it was Him to decide? What reasoning?

 

[David Lamb]

The apostle were not priests. Only Jesus fulfills prophecy, Peter decided it was Him to decide? What reasoning?

I don't want to make more of this than necessary, just to say that if God had thought the apostles were wrong to go ahead and choose two "candidates," why would He have answered their prayer to show them which of the two was His choice? One other point, you say that only Jesus fulfils prophecy, but the particular prophecy about "another fulfilling his office" was not fulfilled by Jesus.

 

[Grailhunter]

But they didn't choose a replacement on their own, did they? Casting lots was a method commanded by God on several occasions, such as the choosing of the scapegoat:

“"Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.” (Le 16:8 NKJV)

In choosing a replacement for Judas, Peter refers to the Old Testament for authority to do so:

“"For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’” (Ac 1:20 NKJV)

We don't read of any condemnation by God of their action in doing so. And they did pray:

“And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen” (Ac 1:24 NKJV)

The answer to your riddle guys is that you are debating over a dead sect. The Jewish-Christians practiced polygamy and concubinage and worshiped and sacrificed in the Temple observing the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. This sect died out around the 1st century....no Jewish-Christian writings after that.

Gentile-Christians took the helm of Christianity after that and worshipped on Sunday and mostly it is about Paul. Christ's ministry was mostly in the Old Covenant and it was about the Jews, and He was mostly talking to the Jews.....and they had Him killed. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children! Peter was a great guy but with the Gentile-Christians it is mostly about Paul who wrote or influenced 75% of the New Testament.

 

[Rockerduck]

I don't want to make more of this than necessary, just to say that if God had thought the apostles were wrong to go ahead and choose two "candidates," why would He have answered their prayer to show them which of the two was His choice?

Where does it say God answered?

 

[David Lamb]

The answer to your riddle guys is that you are debating over a dead sect. The Jewish-Christians practiced polygamy and concubinage and worshiped and sacrificed in the Temple observing the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. This sect died out around the 1st century....no Jewish-Christian writings after that.

Sorry, where do you find Christians, whether Jewish or Gentile, practicing polygamy, having concubines, or sacrificing in the temple? As far as Christianity is concerned , there was no difference between Jew and Gentile:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Ga 3:28-29 NKJV)

"Greek" in that quote refers to Gentiles.

 

[Rockerduck]

I don't want to make more of this than necessary, just to say that if God had thought the apostles were wrong to go ahead and choose two "candidates," why would He have answered their prayer to show them which of the two was His choice? One other point, you say that only Jesus fulfils prophecy, but the particular prophecy about "another fulfilling his office" was not fulfilled by Jesus.

Ok, God fulfills prophecy. Let another take his place, fulfilled by God. Jesus chose Paul.

 

[David Lamb]

Ok, God fulfills prophecy. Let another take his place, fulfilled by God. Jesus chose Paul.

Yes of course Jesus chose Paul, but nowhere are we told that Paul was a replacement for Judas. Are you saying that God did not answer the prayer mentioned in Acts 1:24?

“And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” (Ac 1:24-26 NKJV)

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes of course Jesus chose Paul, but nowhere are we told that Paul was a replacement for Judas. Are you saying that God did not answer the prayer mentioned in Acts 1:24?

“And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” (Ac 1:24-26 NKJV)

It does not say God answered. Jesus chose the 12 and Jesus made the big deal point., I chose you. John 15:16, John 6:70, John 13:18. Jesus said it many times that He is the one who choses His apostles.

 

[Mink57]

It does not say God answered. Jesus chose the 12 and Jesus made the big deal point., I chose you. John 15:16, John 6:70, John 13:18. Jesus said it many times that He is the one who choses His apostles.

Since when does God ALWAYS answer with words?

After the lot fell to Matthias, wasn't it THEN and ONLY then that the tongues of fire came to rest on ALL of them, including Matthias?

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry, where do you find Christians, whether Jewish or Gentile, practicing polygamy, having concubines, or sacrificing in the temple? As far as Christianity is concerned , there was no difference between Jew and Gentile:

LOL Where do you find them breathing? The scriptures do not put a moratorium on polygamy or concubinage or slavery and it was a large part of the their lives and culture. So no reason to assume they stopped.
But we do know the Jewish-Christians ceased to exist.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Ga 3:28-29 NKJV)

"Greek" in that quote refers to Gentiles.

How can you read the Bible and not know that there are two groups.....These two groups were at odds with each other the meeting in Acts 15 is about this

 

[Mink57]

This is plural, Jesus says all of you shall bind on earth, etc. Ye is plural, Jesus is talking to a group. When you have the Holy Spirit, you have the keys to Heaven. All who are Holy Spirit filled will bind on earth and loose in Heaven.

Matthew 18:18 -KJV- Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus talking to the APOSTLES as a group. How do we know? Go to Matthew 18:1. That's where Jesus begins to address them.