Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)

[David in NJ]

I am saying Jesus opened His mouth in parables, teaching Truths that had been kept secret.

I am aware MEN have concluded a specific number of PARABLES Jesus taught. Yet Scripture itself does not NUMBER Jesus’ teachings.

The specific 144,000 virgins reserved for a specific Service during the end of days Tribulations sent down from Heaven (being 12,000 of every tribe of Israel ) was kept secret UNTIL, God gave that knowledge to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ gave that knowledge to a holy angel, and a holy angel gave that knowledge to John, (Rev 1:1) who recorded that knowledge in ink on paper.
And since John’s day, his writings discovered, copied and distributed throughout the world.

Matt 13:
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

You said: "The specific 144,000 virgins reserved for a specific Service during the end of days Tribulations sent down from Heaven (being 12,000 of every tribe of Israel ) was kept secret UNTIL, God gave that knowledge to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ gave that knowledge to a holy angel, and a holy angel gave that knowledge to John, (Rev 1:1) who recorded that knowledge in ink on paper.
And since John’s day, his writings discovered, copied and distributed throughout the world."

Do you have any OT Prophecy or Gospel account(s) or from the Apostles that would verify your statement(s)?

 

[David in NJ]

Wrong. I am not a Pre-Tribber. I have stated the Four Horsemen of the Apolcalypse have already left the barn in several threads.

Thank you for the update.

i have not been privy to your threads on subject.

 

[Taken]

You said: "The specific 144,000 virgins reserved for a specific Service during the end of days Tribulations sent down from Heaven (being 12,000 of every tribe of Israel ) was kept secret UNTIL, God gave that knowledge to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ gave that knowledge to a holy angel, and a holy angel gave that knowledge to John, (Rev 1:1) who recorded that knowledge in ink on paper.
And since John’s day, his writings discovered, copied and distributed throughout the world."

Do you have any OT Prophecy or Gospel account(s) or from the Apostles that would verify your statement(s)?

Moreso a study of several scriptures.
Here are a few.
Remembering…Jews have been blinded nearly 2,000 years…(making way for Gentiles to become included) Yet God promised to Save His (faithful) People ISRAEL.

Rev 7:
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
[6] And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
[7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
[8] And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
[13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Pss 65
[1] Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Matt 24: (Beginning of sorrows…)
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[David in NJ]

Moreso a study of several scriptures.
Here are a few.
Remembering…Jews have been blinded nearly 2,000 years…(making way for Gentiles to become included) Yet God promised to Save His (faithful) People ISRAEL.

Rev 7:
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
[6] And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
[7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
[8] And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
[13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Pss 65
[1] Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Matt 24: (Beginning of sorrows…)
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation is the LORD's Message to the "churches" which are Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

Revelation is speaking in Heavenly Terms concerning His Body which is the "One New Man" = Ephesians ch2

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

i do not see or find any specific prophecy of that which you have claimed of the 144,000 being a select group of chosen Jews according to the flesh.

Galatians ch3
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It is contrary to the Gospel to apply selective separation of the Body of Christ.

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

 

[rwb]

REv 7:9,10 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

It is kind of important to read the whole Bible and talk to the Lord about all of it!

There is a "great multitude" and comes "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues", and they are seen in heaven by John saying loudly, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb".

Now what was that question again? -

Are only 144,000 saved?​

Obviously not!!!!

The Bible explains that the 144,000 were from the "tribe of the sons of Israel:"

We read that, right?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

So not "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues"!!!

Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is the 144,000 saved from the tribe of the sons of Israel - and then there is the great multitude save from "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" thanks to God giving the world His only begotten Son!!

The 144,000 which I do not believe a literal number but symbolizes the remnant from Old Covenant Israel saved according to grace through faith. Compare that to the innumerable multitude from throughout the whole world and we began to understand the great significance of the first advent of Christ come to earth to give Himself as atonement for sin, and to defeat death.

The Old Covenant faithful heard of the Messiah who was to come to save them, but until Christ literally those of old could not fully understand the prophecy.

Paul shows the remnant from old from the time of Elijah, and the time he lived, speaking of the faithful from Israel of old as a remnant according to election of grace.

Romans 11:4-5 (KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[rwb]

I certainly agree that Christ is the Savior of the world; meaning that Christ will save 100% of mankind.

Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, and He is the Saviour of all who believe!

 

[RR144]

Peace and Good Nite RR

LOL

 

[David in NJ]

LOL

Did you miss Post #9 ?

 

[RR144]

Let us apply your logic = Jesus spoke in parables which must mean everything He said is a parable, right?

No, because when Jesus spoke in parables he pretty much said so ... besides, parables were for a purpose. But this has nothing to do with whether the numbers in Revelation are literal or symbolic. Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.

 

[RR144]

Did you miss Post #9 ?

Seek and ye shall find - Matt 7:7

 

[David in NJ]

No, because when Jesus spoke in parables he pretty much said so ... besides, parables were for a purpose. But this has nothing to do with whether the numbers in Revelation are literal or symbolic. Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.

Scripture is Scripture

Truth is Truth

Scripture is Truth

Scripture is literal, parables, allegorical, symbolic, poetic, prophetic.

Knowing is from the Holy Spirit as HE guides/teaches thru Scripture and Prayerful Seeking.

 

[David in NJ]

Seek and ye shall find - Matt 7:7

All the time......

 

[RR144]

Dear RR144,
I certainly agree that Christ is the Savior of the world; meaning that Christ will save 100% of mankind.

However, the "144,000" is not a literal number as you seem to imply. It is a spiritual symbol which carries a meaning "not taught by man's wisdom":

Then I guess all the numbers in Revelation are symbolic too, you can't pick and choose to fit your theology. Are there seven churches, 4 winds, 2 witnesses or is that symbolic too?

 

[Taken]

i do not see or find any specific prophecy of that which you have claimed of the 144,000 being a select group of chosen Jews according to the flesh.

Then we do not read the same or understand the same. Because I see an express specific prophecy regarding 144,000 (12,000) each of every tribe of Israel, with a Lamb, with an express mission to preach to the Tribes the Truth of Christ Jesus.

Perhaps you have an other notion of HOW God fulfills His Promise to Save His People, (God believing Israel) ?? Save Israel, WITHOUT believe in JESUS?


Rev 1:
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 7:4
Rev 7:5
Rev 7:6
Rev 7:7
Rev 7:8
Rev 14:1
Rev 14:2
Rev 14:3
Rev 14:4
Rev 14:5

God Bless,
Taken

 

[David in NJ]

Then we do not read the same or understand the same. Because I see an express specific prophecy regarding 144,000 (12,000) each of every tribe of Israel, with a Lamb, with an express mission to preach to the Tribes the Truth of Christ Jesus.

Perhaps you have an other notion of HOW God fulfills His Promise to Save His People, (God believing Israel) ?? Save Israel, WITHOUT believe in JESUS?


Rev 1:
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 7:4
Rev 7:5
Rev 7:6
Rev 7:7
Rev 7:8
Rev 14:1
Rev 14:2
Rev 14:3
Rev 14:4
Rev 14:5

God Bless,
Taken

God has never stopped His Salvation for His People.

Romans 9:1-9
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 9:27-29
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

 

[David in NJ]

Then we do not read the same or understand the same. Because I see an express specific prophecy regarding 144,000 (12,000) each of every tribe of Israel, with a Lamb, with an express mission to preach to the Tribes the Truth of Christ Jesus.

Perhaps you have an other notion of HOW God fulfills His Promise to Save His People, (God believing Israel) ?? Save Israel, WITHOUT believe in JESUS?


Rev 1:
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 7:4
Rev 7:5
Rev 7:6
Rev 7:7
Rev 7:8
Rev 14:1
Rev 14:2
Rev 14:3
Rev 14:4
Rev 14:5

God Bless,
Taken

Good Morning

 

[Jack]

I am saying Jesus opened His mouth in parables, teaching Truths that had been kept secret.

I am aware MEN have concluded a specific number of PARABLES Jesus taught. Yet Scripture itself does not NUMBER Jesus’ teachings.

The specific 144,000 virgins reserved for a specific Service during the end of days Tribulations sent down from Heaven (being 12,000 of every tribe of Israel ) was kept secret UNTIL, God gave that knowledge to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ gave that knowledge to a holy angel, and a holy angel gave that knowledge to John, (Rev 1:1) who recorded that knowledge in ink on paper.
And since John’s day, his writings discovered, copied and distributed throughout the world.

Matt 13:
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Is John 3:16 just a parable?

Then I guess all the numbers in Revelation are symbolic too, you can't pick and choose to fit your theology. Are there seven churches, 4 winds, 2 witnesses or is that symbolic too?

Everything in the Bible that Kingdom Hall doesn't like is "symbolic".

 

[Taken]

God has never stopped His Salvation for His People.

Stopped? No.
Paused? Yes.

John 12:
[40] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[41] These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Romans 9:1-9
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 9:27-29
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Is John 3:16 just a parable?

Everything in the Bible that Kingdom Hall doesn't like is "symbolic".

I have already stated Jesus IS TRUTH. Every word He states is TRUTH….Period.
Can’t say what Kingdom Hall does, I have no relationship with a “Kingdom Hall”, to speak what their congregates are taught, believe, or do.

 

[David in NJ]

Stopped? No.
Paused? Yes.

John 12:
[40] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[41] These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.






I have already stated Jesus IS TRUTH. Every word He states is TRUTH….Period.
Can’t say what Kingdom Hall does, I have no relationship with a “Kingdom Hall”, to speak what their congregates are taught, believe, or do.

Keep at the forefront of you mind that there is only One Israel of God that consists of Jew and Gentile in Messiah the Savior.

There has only ever been One = Galatians chapter 4

For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[Taken]

Keep at the forefront of you mind that there is only One Israel of God that consists of Jew and Gentile in Messiah the Savior.

I need reminding of that ….Because?
Did I say anything to the contrary?