Are Protestants "saved? "

[Renniks]

fwiw i might suggest digging in to where you read "believer" which is likely not what Scripture means, at least they way we define that now, and maybe using the parable of the Good Samaritan as a frame. I say this bc the Bible does not, anywhere that i know of, say anything about "unbelievers."

if you dig a pit for others, you end up in it yourself

Really? The Bible has lots to say about unbelievers. And believers
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

 

[bbyrd009]

Really? The Bible has lots to say about unbelievers. And believers
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

that one is more indirect, as it does not contain the english term "believe," which would make it easier to make the point...but even that one has "if" in it, yeh?

Anyway, if you were to Quote a passage with "believer" in it, or for that matter "unbeliever," the point might become clearer.
Or maybe an example...hmm. Is the Good Samaritan a Believer or no? How bout the whores and tax collectors "beating us into the kingdom?"

the point being that we say that anyone who might be "in Christ" is automatically "a believer," right, but this is maybe not really true at all?

 

[Renniks]

that one is more indirect, as it does not contain the english term "believe," which would make it easier to make the point...but even that one has "if" in it, yeh?

Anyway, if you were to Quote a passage with "believer" in it, or for that matter "unbeliever," the point might become clearer.
Or maybe an example...hmm. Is the Good Samaritan a Believer or no? How bout the whores and tax collectors "beating us into the kingdom?"

the point being that we say that anyone who might be "in Christ" is automatically "a believer," right, but this is maybe not really true at all?

No, we say those who ARE in Christ are believers, not who might be. We aren't automatically given the knowledge of who is or isn't, but we know that it's whosoever believes on him, that is, Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, we say those who ARE in Christ are believers, not who might be.

yes, and i think that is the problem; we say
who says we are qualified to say

We aren't automatically given the knowledge of who is or isn't, but we know that it's whosoever believes on him, that is, Christ.

yet when you goto Quote that it changes, Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- faith, faithfulness
and has merely been scribed to us in english as "believe."
rather than has faith in iow, which have been nearly obliterated from our xlations
now anyone can say "i believe" right, and theyre in huh

 

[prism]

I say this bc the Bible does not, anywhere that i know of, say anything about "unbelievers."

umm, ok...

Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 

[bbyrd009]

Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Strong's Greek: 571. ἄπιστος (apistos) -- incredible, unbelieving

so my arg is that even though it says "unbelieving" there in English it becomes much more obvious when you click the link that "unbeliever" to us means "someone who is not saved, someone who does not believe what i believe" now, more or less, when a better translation would be "incredulous" or "unfaithful," which unless faith is a noun to you im sure youll agree is a diff concept entirely. The Good Samaritan was an unbeliever before he helped the guy in the ditch, and he was one after that too, but he was never unfaithful at all, yeh?

and all the rest have been equally scribed, im pretty sure. "Belief" is virtually not anywhere the standard in Scripture, although it is discussed in other passages i guess. There are five diff roots for "belief," but only that one for "faith," pistis, so while you can certainly accept "unbelievers" as valid there, that is not what the original meant by any means, may as well do eggs and bunnies for Passover at that point imo.

I always bite the heads off first, how bout you?

 

[Renniks]

rather than has faith in iow, which have been nearly obliterated from our xlations
now anyone can say "i believe" right, and theyre in huh

No one is saying that but you. Scripture says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you will be saved. End of story.

 

[Episkopos]

No one is saying that but you. Scripture says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you will be saved. End of story.

Actually only the beginning of story. The modern doctrine has the race won with one step. But such as do that in the real race are disqualified. We need to attain to Christ. God gives us time to do this. But if we are smug and feel like we are privileged without striving to enter into God's rest...then we will be cut-off...just like natural Israel was before us. (to wander in outer darkness forever)

We are in a race. Run to win!

 

[Taken]

Really? The Bible has lots to say about unbelievers. And believers
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

@ bbyrd009

Correct Renniks.

Humans "Begin" their natural life "Without" Belief in God...and (since Jesus' manifestation) also humans "begin" their natural life "Without" belief in Jesus the Christ.

In short order...All humans have Experienced;
Un-belief / non-belief / separation From God.

And YES Scripture does have much to say about human men...who choose to REMAIN...
Without Belief in God AND Without Belief in the manifested man called Jesus the Christ; who "IS" the Word, Truth, Life, Wisdom, Power and SEED, of The Lord God Almighty.

And this SAME Jesus the Christ IS:
the Divider of human men...

human men, having freely chosen To Believe: "IN" God and Jesus the Christ AND, "WITH" Christ Jesus.

From human men, having freely chosen TO REMAIN "without" belief IN God AND Jesus the Christ. AND, "WITHOUT" Christ Jesus.

Glory to God...whose Power, Light, Truth, Dwells "WITHIN" the human men, divided and "WITH" Christ, their Lord God Almighty.

Taken

 

[Renniks]

Actually only the beginning of story. The modern doctrine has the race won with one step. But such as do that in the real race are disqualified. We need to attain to Christ. God gives us time to do this. But if we are smug and feel like we are privileged without striving to enter into God's rest...then we will be cut-off...just like natural Israel was before us. (to wander in outer darkness forever)

We are in a race. Run to win!

So what is your definition of striving to enter his rest? Striving to rest is a contradiction.

 

[Episkopos]

So what is your definition of striving to enter his rest? Striving to rest is a contradiction.

It sounds like you need to go to my dialectic thread...where very few admit and are honest to see the seeming contradictions!

But here is the verse for you.

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

 

[Renniks]

It sounds like you need to go to my dialectic thread...where very few admit and are honest to see the seeming contradictions!

But here is the verse for you.

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

So, again, what is this rest? How do you define it? You can't enter what you don't understand.

 

[Episkopos]

So, again, what is this rest? How do you define it? You can't enter what you don't understand.

To walk in Zion with God...to cease from our own works and walk in the Spirit...where we do the works prepared in advance...the eternal works that are from above. To enter into the grace of God in the perfection of the walk IN Christ. His yoke is easy.

But to get there is very hard. The way is narrow and there are few indeed who go through into God's presence and keeping power. So few will enter in that most have never even heard of this rest after decades of sunday entertainment churches.

 

[bbyrd009]

No one is saying that but you.

well, me and the original version of Scripture, yes. Now dont get me wrong, i keep an open mind there as pistis and "belief" do, nominally, share a synonym, however there are five diff roots for "belief" and only one for "have faith," so i at least recommend being skeptible whenever you read "belief" or "believe," as these often have little or nothing to do with have faith, which is usually the pertinent root,
Romans 10:9 Lexicon: that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
as it is in that one also

Scripture says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you will be saved. End of story.

ha well in English maybe, ya...but scribes will be scribes, see

wherein you reveal that most "believer's" "beliefs" are actually not beliefs at all, but rather Absolute Truths that can neither be demonstrated in Scripture nor challenged, just like wadr your current "belief" that you will become an immortal and go up to heaven after you have died, right? Regardless of what Scripture plainly, many times, several diff ways, has to say on the matter? Which is completely your choice and your right imo, only believing will not make those true, will they?

So, might be "end of story" for you, right now, but that does not in any way mean "truth," and in fact becomes a pointer to "not truth" as it turns out, dunning-krueger and all that.

And we are not even exploring that whacked def of "saved" here, which implies Apollos and going places after death and immortality and whatever, wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually only the beginning of story. The modern doctrine has the race won with one step. But such as do that in the real race are disqualified. We need to attain to Christ. God gives us time to do this. But if we are smug and feel like we are privileged without striving to enter into God's rest...then we will be cut-off...just like natural Israel was before us. (to wander in outer darkness forever)

We are in a race. Run to win!

^

not to mention the pit that (you) have dug for others to fall into, and etc

 

[bbyrd009]

"believe" is obv not the standard, yall "believed in" santa claus too, right

 

[Renniks]

To walk in Zion with God...to cease from our own works and walk in the Spirit...where we do the works prepared in advance...the eternal works that are from above. To enter into the grace of God in the perfection of the walk IN Christ. His yoke is easy.

But to get there is very hard. The way is narrow and there are few indeed who go through into God's presence and keeping power. So few will enter in that most have never even heard of this rest after decades of sunday entertainment churches.

And where do you get this idea that most people who identify as Christians won't be kept by God? Do you think God doesn't want to keep his people, who he promised to save if they believe and confess? Is God a moody lover who starts the relationship, and then bails at the first sign of imperfections in his bride?

Why is Paul so confidant that nothing can separate us from Christ's love?
The way is narrow, sure, because Jesus is the way, he is the door, he is the gate, not a million other gods and not reliance on self. Which is the default mode of the human will. Why do many stray away and follow false gods? Because they never really trusted him, so their soil was shallow, and they had no root to sustain them. They weren't connected with the vine because they refused his rest. His yoke is easy, his burden is light. He's not making it hard to remain in him. We make it hard with our self sufficiency.
He's not willing that any perish. They perish because they don't rest in him.
We don't remain in him by gritting our teeth and trying real hard not to sin.
We remain in him by resting on his love which is made perfect in our weakness.

 

[Renniks]

"believe" is obv not the standard, yall "believed in" santa claus too, right

No, I never did. Yes, this belief must involve trust, not just mental agreement.

 

[Episkopos]

And where do you get this idea that most people who identify as Christians won't be kept by God? Do you think God doesn't want to keep his people, who he promised to save if they believe and confess? Is God a moody lover who starts the relationship, and then bails at the first sign of imperfections in his bride?

Why is Paul so confidant that nothing can separate us from Christ's love?
The way is narrow, sure, because Jesus is the way, he is the door, he is the gate, not a million other gods and not reliance on self. Which is the default mode of the human will. Why do many stray away and follow false gods? Because they never really trusted him, so their soil was shallow, and they had no root to sustain them. They weren't connected with the vine because they refused his rest. His yoke is easy, his burden is light. He's not making it hard to remain in him. We make it hard with our self sufficiency.
He's not willing that any perish. They perish because they don't rest in him.
We don't remain in him by gritting our teeth and trying real hard not to sin.
We remain in him by resting on his love which is made perfect in our weakness.

We are the moody lovers. God can't go against His own holiness. So you are firmly taking a humanistic view of everything and are not seeing this from God's eternal perspective...and the biblical perspective. Without holiness NONE shall see the Lord.

Grace gives us the victory over sin...no effort required. The only effort is to get INTO Christ. ...and this by asking, seeking and knocking. THEN His yoke is easy. IN Christ we walk in HIS strength...not our own. That is the gospel power. Today we have settled on a show of godliness but deny the power of grace.

So then today people think there is a gospel message without the power to overcome all sin. And this is a false gospel.

 

[Marymog]

Major Protestant Denominations do not have such Doctrines...
Granted there is always a FRINGE.

Glory to God,
Taken

Got it....Soooo any Protestant denomination that allows/performs gay marriage are on the fringe? They misinterpreted Scripture??

Who decides that they are wrong in their interpreation? Majority rules??

Curious Mary