Are Protestants "saved? "

[Episkopos]

Are you referencing Romans 6:4? I'm not seeing anything about a "few" in there.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Are you following Paul's line of thought all the way through?

1 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why is it that Paul has to tell saints how to live? Why is it that he concludes that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Does this not include our sinful flesh? I don't see Paul telling us that God is going to drop us like a hot potato because we are not perfect. Just the opposite. Why does Christ have to intercede for us if we are capable of perfection?

So you are just another bible "enthusiast" who has no actual testimony...but just religious beliefs? You name you claim? But how empty is that? There are people that actually experience what you are claiming as your right....but without any actual connection to God.

Do you realize just how dangerous that is?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Why is it that Paul has to tell saints how to live? Why is it that he concludes that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Does this not include our sinful flesh? I don't see Paul telling us that God is going to drop us like a hot potato because we are not perfect. Just the opposite. Why does Christ have to intercede for us if we are capable of perfection?

Hi Renniks, You have spoken well and posed questions that are of great relevance, especially with regard to novice believers who have not experienced the trials, tribulations, difficulties, hardships, adversities, and temptations etc., that test us as followers of Christ pressing on toward the goal for the prize...

Php 3:12-14
(12) Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
(13) Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
(14) I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I believe part of pressing on toward the goal as stated above involves refusing to be influenced by unscriptural structures and dynamics that are based on the traditions and commandments of men.

Mar 7:5-9
(5) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?
(6) He answered and said unto them, Well has Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
(9) And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Accordingly the called out ones with whom I fellowship are opposed to naming ourselves, having a written mission statement, or advertising with a trendy vision slogan.

 

[marks]

Why is it that Paul has to tell saints how to live?

Hi Renniks,

Now . . . there's a question I've never been able to get these "I'm perfect without sin" people to answer. Why indeed!

Seems you are the one denying it's power and claiming we can lose out simply by not trying hard enough to be holy.

I think his doctrine is not that we expend effort to be holy, rather, we expend effort to "be in Christ", and then, having by our own goodness/power/desire/whatever/self-willed become "in Christ", then we are holy without additional effort.

So if we want to bad enough, try hard enough, we can be saved by grace through faith???

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

Any Converted Individual whose word is in harmony with Gods Word.

I believe my word is in harmony with Gods word. Do you believe that?

 

[Taken]

I believe my word is in harmony with Gods word. Do you believe that?

Can't say I know you, have heard your word, or know your fruit, to give a definitive answer to your question.

 

[prism]

I always bite the heads off first, how bout you?

When going after cherished idols, I like to hit at the feet (foundation)...
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
(Dan 2:34)

Strong's Greek: 571. ἄπιστος (apistos) -- incredible, unbelieving

so my arg is that even though it says "unbelieving" there in English it becomes much more obvious when you click the link that "unbeliever" to us means "someone who is not saved, someone who does not believe what i believe" now, more or less, when a better translation would be "incredulous" or "unfaithful," which unless faith is a noun to you im sure youll agree is a diff concept entirely. The Good Samaritan was an unbeliever before he helped the guy in the ditch, and he was one after that too, but he was never unfaithful at all, yeh?

and all the rest have been equally scribed, im pretty sure. "Belief" is virtually not anywhere the standard in Scripture, although it is discussed in other passages i guess. There are five diff roots for "belief," but only that one for "faith," pistis, so while you can certainly accept "unbelievers" as valid there, that is not what the original meant by any means, may as well do eggs and bunnies for Passover at that point imo.

The Gospel comes in power and conviction (or it doesn't come at all), Western theological hoopla notwithstanding. I suppose this also applies...
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So however you want to define faith, one must be born again receiving the new nature.
(Joh 3:7-8)

 

[marks]

Renniks said: ↑
Why is it that Paul has to tell saints how to live? Why is it that he concludes that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Does this not include our sinful flesh? I don't see Paul telling us that God is going to drop us like a hot potato because we are not perfect. Just the opposite. Why does Christ have to intercede for us if we are capable of perfection?

Hi Renniks, You have spoken well and posed questions that are of great relevance, especially with regard to novice believers who have not experienced the trials, tribulations, difficulties, hardships, adversities, and temptations etc., that test us as followers of Christ pressing on toward the goal for the prize...

Php 3:12-14
(12) Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
(13) Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
(14) I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I believe part of pressing on toward the goal as stated above involves refusing to be influenced by unscriptural structures and dynamics that are based on the traditions and commandments of men.

Mar 7:5-9
(5) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?
(6) He answered and said unto them, Well has Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(8) For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
(9) And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Accordingly the called out ones with whom I fellowship are opposed to naming ourselves, having a written mission statement, or advertising with a trendy vision slogan.

Hi Stumpmaster,

When I saw your post, I was interested in how you were going to answer Rennick's questions, but I couldn't find an answer, was there meant to be one and I'm missing it?

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

Can't say I know you, have heard your word, or know your fruit, to give a definitive answer to your question.

Sooo your theory that Any Converted Individual whose word is in harmony with Gods Word is guided by the Holy Spirit. Nice theory but SOMEONE has to decide who's word is in harmony with Gods word. Who decides that? Back up your theory....

 

[Renniks]

So you are just another bible "enthusiast" who has no actual testimony...but just religious beliefs? You name you claim? But how empty is that? There are people that actually experience what you are claiming as your right....but without any actual connection to God.

Do you realize just how dangerous that is?

Did I say I was just a Bible enthusiast? Why do you question a fellow believers salvation for no reason?
Yeah, I'm enthused that scripture teaches we can know we are saved.
Do you accuse everyone who has a different view then yours of being empty of actual experience?
How can you know what anyone has experienced with the Spirit? If I told you God sustains me despite myself would that be more convincing then quoting scripture?
If one believes they are among the few holy ones, condensation towards those of us who freely admit to being broken humans is only to be expected.
" God
loves us as we are...not as we ought to be. because we are never going to be as we ought to be."
--Brennan Manning

 

[Taken]

Sooo your theory that Any Converted Individual whose word is in harmony with Gods Word is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Close enough.

Nice theory but SOMEONE has to decide who's word is in harmony with Gods word. Who decides that? Back up your theory....

Well Mary...you might Start with learning What Gods Approved Word IS... and choose for yourself if that is something YOU agree with and Let God know...with your own Yea or Nay...

Not Rocket science.

 

[Episkopos]

Did I say I was just a Bible enthusiast? Why do you question a fellow believers salvation for no reason?
Yeah, I'm enthused that scripture teaches we can know we are saved.
Do you accuse everyone who has a different view then yours of being empty of actual experience?
How can you know what anyone has experienced with the Spirit? If I told you God sustains me despite myself would that be more convincing then quoting scripture?
If one believes they are among the few holy ones, condensation towards those of us who freely admit to being broken humans is only to be expected.
" God
loves us as we are...not as we ought to be. because we are never going to be as we ought to be."
--Brennan Manning

You are the one equating bible reading with salvation. I don't believe we can judge what will become our destiny. God will judge that. The bible is very specific about claiming things that aren't true. We are not to bear a false witness...or take the Lord's name in vain. So a religious bent that makes us do those things is very counter-productive. it puts us in a worse place.

But to love God and seek His will is always good. We can keep it simple and humble and refrain from making every claim we read about in the bible. The unreality of modern religion makes everything fake. I'm for truth and the preservation of some kind of reality check that we might not over-estimate our condition. It's far wiser to under-estimate it.

but then such wisdom seems out of place here.

 

[Taken]

Which members? Baptist? Mormon? Lutheren?? Of whom do you speak?

As I said, MEMBERS of Christ's Church.
Are you aware that applies to the "Converted?"
Titles, denominations, races have nothing to do with an individual's FREEWILL choice to accept the Lord Gods Offer to be MADE Converted.

 

[Renniks]

You are the one equating bible reading with salvation. I don't believe we can judge what will become our destiny. God will judge that. The bible is very specific about claiming things that aren't true.

Um..no I didn't equate Bible reading with salvation. And since you are telling me what the Bible says to support your position, you are doing exactly the same thing I did. So, are you equating Bible reading with salvation? If we aren't to believe what the Word says, then we can believe anything we like. That leads to false religions.

 

[Episkopos]

Um..no I didn't equate Bible reading with salvation. And since you are telling me what the Bible says to support your position, you are doing exactly the same thing I did. So, are you equating Bible reading with salvation? If we aren't to believe what the Word says, then we can believe anything we like. That leads to false religions.

People today tend to read themselves into salvation through selecting certain bible verses for themselves....and this without any manifestation you read about in the bible among they who were active in the salvation process of Christ.

 

[historyb]

Actually only the beginning of story. The modern doctrine has the race won with one step. But such as do that in the real race are disqualified. We need to attain to Christ. God gives us time to do this. But if we are smug and feel like we are privileged without striving to enter into God's rest...then we will be cut-off...just like natural Israel was before us. (to wander in outer darkness forever)

We are in a race. Run to win!

So many in modern evangelicalism do think that once you believe that is it. When I was an evangelical I thought as much myself

 

[marksman]

Does God prefer one religious bent to another? Or is that about us?

As in.."I can believe anything I want based on a verse taken out of context"

That is a cheeky post brother. A bit of a dig at those who are careless with the truth.

Of course, he prefers the Pentecostals to all the others because he doesn't have to wear a hearing aid. They all think God is deaf so they increase the decibels to make sure he hears them.

I was in a pentecostal prayer meeting in a home and we were all talking normally about this that and the other and when we decided it was time to pray, I nearly jumped out of my seat because the decibels rose dramatically. How was I suppose to hear from God with all that noise going on? I gave up in the end and went to sleep.

But then again, he might prefer the Baptists as they are adamant about being dunked in water if you are a Christian.

Or here is a thought. perhaps it is the Catholics because having a pope on earth lets him off the hook a lot of the time as he can leave it up to him to make all the decisions.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, I'm enthused that scripture teaches we can know we are saved.

ah, where? ty

because we are never going to be as we ought to be

hmm, you think? Seems to me like that would violate that they may be one as we are one
and a few others, come to think of it

 

[bbyrd009]

So many in modern evangelicalism do think that once you believe that is it. When I was an evangelical I thought as much myself

so how do you address work to make your calling and election sure?

 

[Taken]

ah, where? ty

Accomplished salvation Example Verification:

Luke 7:
[50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath savedthee; go in peace.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Stumpmaster]

Renniks said: ↑
Why is it that Paul has to tell saints how to live? Why is it that he concludes that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Does this not include our sinful flesh? I don't see Paul telling us that God is going to drop us like a hot potato because we are not perfect. Just the opposite. Why does Christ have to intercede for us if we are capable of perfection?

Hi Stumpmaster,

When I saw your post, I was interested in how you were going to answer Rennick's questions, but I couldn't find an answer, was there meant to be one and I'm missing it?

Much love!

Hi marks. I read Renniks' questions to be of the rhetorical variety, with him making the point that if sinless perfection is obtained when people accept Christ as their Saviour Paul and the other NT writers where unaware of it since they sought to address faults, failings, and falsehoods among those in the body of Christ.

I have encountered Christians who have tried to convince me that they became perfect when they accepted Christ. One couple in particular presented me with a written dissertation of the doctrine of sinless perfection that they wanted me to endorse, but when I challenged them on a number of issues, like Christian leaders who become adulterers, and Christians who lack compassion, they had no answers. Also, it was ironic they accused me of being in error for not believing I had been made sinless and perfect in this life when I accepted Christ as my Saviour.

I must add that I do believe when I confess and repent of sin the blood of Jesus cleanses me and I am sanctified entirely, but this does not guarantee I will not sin in some way in the future, although that is to be aimed for.