Are the words of Jesus still meant for Christians?

[St. SteVen]

Do you mean about the law?

Galatians 2:21 NIV
I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!”[a]

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been
alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

This might be a helpful topic. (shameless self-promotion)

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Cassandra]

If Paul points us to Christ, and Christ says to do things we think we don't have to do, then what was the purpose of Paul pointing us to Christ?

Jesus said “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:45–46.)

If someone or something points us to someone/something else, shouldn't we respond to what that someone/someone is pointing at?

I swear, the gospel is so easy to understand, and yet we are forever throwing up barriers. If there exists a thing we don't understand, we are to keep reading, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

 

[Lambano]

Things started going south after the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

 

[St. SteVen]

If Paul points us to Christ, and Christ says to do things we think we don't have to do, then what was the purpose of Paul pointing us to Christ?

It probably means we don't understand what Christ wants us to do.
Jesus was quoted, and very possibly misquoted, 30 years after the events.
Paul wrote to use with his own hand on the spot.

Jesus was NOT keeping us UNDER the law Paul showed us we are NOT under.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[St. SteVen]

Things started going south after the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

South? - LOL

Acts 15:10 NIV
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles
a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

 

[Episkopos]

As followers of Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles, we must recognize the importance of context in interpreting the Bible. The saying "context is king" emphasizes this crucial aspect of understanding any given text. For instance, when Jesus spoke about the importance of keeping the commandments for salvation, we must consider the immediate audience, the current situation, the Jewish culture, and the background to fully grasp his message. By taking the context into account, we can see that Jesus and Paul share a unified perspective on many issues.

You have answered your own question. Is Jesus not the Lord? Is He not the same yesterday, today and always? Who will be judging you? Paul? Or Jesus?

The words of Jesus remain the pillar of our faith. Paul was an usher into the the bigger kingdom picture for all nations. But misunderstanding Paul in order to nullify Jesus' words must be seen as a grave error.

 

[Episkopos]

It probably means we don't understand what Christ wants us to do.
Jesus was quoted, and very possibly misquoted, 30 years after the events.
Paul wrote to use with his own hand on the spot.

Jesus was NOT keeping us UNDER the law Paul showed us we are NOT under.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Look at the law as a guard rail around tight corners on a road. If you keep to the road, you, personally no longer need the guardrails. The guardrails are there for those who don't keep to the road...but they are still needed.

To say that the guardrails are no longer required in a general way...is foolish. Without them, many will die. The problem was never the law...but our inability to keep them without the help of God by grace to walk in a worthy manner before a holy God.

 

[St. SteVen]

But misunderstanding Paul in order to nullify Jesus' words must be seen as a grave error.

Perhaps that saw cuts both ways?
Misunderstanding Jesus in order to nullify Paul's words must be seen as a grave error.

 

[St. SteVen]

Look at the law as a guard rail around tight corners on a road. If you keep to the road, you, personally no longer need the guardrails. The guardrails are there for those who don't keep to the road...but they are still needed.

To say that the guardrails are no longer required in a general way...is foolish. Without them, many will die. The problem was never the law...but our inability to keep them without the help of God by grace to walk in a worthy manner before a holy God.

True in a sense.
But are you claiming that we are still under the guardianship of the law?

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[St. SteVen]

Who will be judging you? Paul? Or Jesus?

Now that is a good point. Well said.

Though I wonder if what Paul actually WROTE clarifies what we are TOLD Jesus said.
Probably more likely that the Gospels were meddled with than Paul's writings.

 

[Episkopos]

Do you mean about the law?

Galatians 2:21 NIV
I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!”[a]

Here Paul is looking at the law as a means to righteousness. People want to know how to be righteous and how they can know if they are saved or not. Paul is concerned with the higher form of righteousness. He doesn't take much time to avow human righteousness...that's not his ministry. His ministry is to promote the higher walk in Christ and the level of righteousness one attains to through the resurrection life of Christ.
No flesh can be justified before God. Not by the law OR by our beliefs. So then Paul is being misunderstood by most believers here. The righteousness of faith that Paul is describing is at a level that we approach God without fear.

Are we really doing that? Or are we merely justifying ourselves based on our beliefs ABOUT Jesus and what He came to do?

Will Jesus say...I never knew you...as we claim to have His righteousness and His holiness? How bold can we afford to be in our present state?

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been
alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The same goes for trying to be justified by our beliefs. We don't receive grace by claiming to have it. Just like we are never justified by anything we can do or believe.

That doesn't mean that God can't justify the meek, the humble, the merciful. Such as these never claim anything for themselves. Therefore God can, and in many cases, will.

 

[Lambano]

Paul very specifically made the commandments to circumcise males, keep shabbat, observe the feasts, and eat kosher discretionary for Gentile followers. I suppose that's why people think Paul was antinominian.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here Paul is looking at the law as a means to righteousness. People want to know how to be righteous and how they can know if they are saved or not.

Didn't you say earlier that Christ told us that salvation came through keeping the commandments? (the law)

 

[Episkopos]

True in a sense.
But are you claiming that we are still under the guardianship of the law?

No. Only if I slip off the road do I need the guardrails. Only if I "fall from grace" do I need the law to remind me of my true condition and what God expects. Think of the road as the path of holiness or else the path of righteousness...depending on the level of our walk. The law provides a warning for those who don't, or can't, keep to the road of either grace unto holiness...or uprightness according to righteousness.

Paul is not concerned so much with the common laws of righteousness...because He looks to God to walk in the perfection of Christ...to WIN Christ.

Most of us have NOTHING in common with Paul and His quest. Most are NOT seated with Christ in heaven. So we should be fearful of assuming we are something we are not yet able to understand.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The faith OF Christ...a supernatural faith......not the faith about Christ...a human religious belief.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul very specifically made the commandments to circumcise males, keep shabbat, observe the feasts, and eat kosher discretionary for Gentile followers. I suppose that's why people think Paul was antinominian.

Paul was speaking against the law of Moses for Gentiles. A new and living way meant that there was no going back to a way that had no power. Paul was only concerned with the nations coming into a higher walk in Christ...that fulfills the law of God by the power of the resurrected Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Didn't you say earlier that Christ told us that salvation came through keeping the commandments? (the law)

Yes. The law of righteousness (for humans) mean repenting from evil and doing right. This level of righteousness is about INHERITING life...through the mercy of God. This is for the meek, the lowly, the poor, the honest, the merciful. NO need for power from heaven for that level. We ALL have the power of obedience on that level. ALL will be judged against that standard.

The judgment of the saint is much harder than that. Those who claim to follow Christ are held to a higher standard of sacrificial giving and living. Was our faith pleasing to God so that He elevated us into the higher walk in resurrection life? Or did we entertain unbelief like the Israelites did in the wilderness?

 

[amigo de christo]

This bloviating of yours is tiresome and divisive...it projects your own inflated ego onto the forum with empty accusations that reflect your own dogmatic indoctrination.

Just say no to toxic polarization.

The bible aint toxic. JESUS teachings aint toxic . Pope francis and this all inclusive false love carry your cross
without having to believe in JESUS , that is what is toxic .
YOUR inflated ego believes one dont even have to BELIEVE ON CHRIST , they can just pick up their own cross
in whatever religoin they are in . NO NEED to even HAVE to beleive on HE who paid the price of our sins ON that cross .
THAT my friend IS TOXIC and it cometh of man and not OF GOD .
Its about high time you learned that too . It is YE and not me who points to the EGO of man . I POINT TO OUR DIRE
NEED TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST , you point to our own ability . I tell folks that often those who accuse us
of this or that are the ones actually guilty of the this or that they accuse us of doing . BETTER return to the bible EPI
and do you some learning .

 

[amigo de christo]

Now that is a good point. Well said.

Though I wonder if what Paul actually WROTE clarifies what we are TOLD Jesus said.
Probably more likely that the Gospels were meddled with than Paul's writings.

none of it was meddled with . The gospels and letters of the apostels ARE TRUTH . Neither one contradicts the other .
And its high time we know that . ITS MEN who twist or omit what JESUS said
its men who twist or omit what paul wrote , or james , or jude . TRUTH . But as i often say , men do as men do
but lambs do as JESUS said to do . And paul and the other apostels left us letters that MAGNIFIED and HONORED
what JESUS said to do . Tis time for childlike faith to return .

 

[Episkopos]

Perhaps that saw cuts both ways?
Misunderstanding Jesus in order to nullify Paul's words must be seen as a grave error.

If that is possible, we don't see it very much. Do you have any ideas on this? Any examples?

The other way round could fill volumes. Peter never says anything about misunderstanding Jesus...either you understand Him or you don't. But Paul on the other hand had such a specific idea about what he was talking about that many confused his message...even in his own day, as Peter states.

I see the book of James as addressing some of the concerns of the other apostles based on how grace can so easily be misunderstood for lawlessness.

 

[amigo de christo]

Anyone who pits gospel against gospel or the writings of paul as somehow being contradictory to the gospels
or they pit apostle against apostel . Meaning they claim to hold to pual but say james applied to others
IS being misled . What james , peter or john or jude wrote in no way contradicts the gospels or what paul wrote .
IT ALL APPLIES TO us . ITS ALL TRUTH . The problem is men will always sit under men who will teach n preach
to them whatever their heart desired and not rather JUST THE pure truth .
I have even seen some try and pit the GOD of the old testament against the JESUS of the new testament .
What a crock that one is too .
GOD IS GOD , HIS WORD HE IS . HE IS TRUTH and HIS WORD IS TRUTH .
One really has to work hard to present something false . They have to twist and twist and sound and try and sound ever so
wise to try and make a point of vainity . Yet TRUTH is presented so simple .
Men have to work hard at the lie and continue it lies and add to the lies in order to sustain the lie .
BUT TRUTH will easily expose the lie . TIME FOR BIBLES . Read it and love it , embrace it .
It was inspired by GOD . but men will work and through good words and fair speeches try and complicate
TRUTH , till confusion runs amuck and men have no choice but to sit under these confused folks .
Confused folks who have twisted the scrips unto their own destruction .
Never let a man tell you , that you cannot learn the bible for yourself . THOSE WHo do so
are already under the influence of men who did so and the pattern just keeps repeating and the lies just grow more and more .