Are They really “One” or are they ALL on “One Accord“ ?

[Eccl.12:13]

Let’s read some “FACTS” from the word of God, use just a little reasoning and rightfully divide the word of God, just as His word tells us to do.

　

1. God the Father will not judge man, that job is reserved for another God…..Jesus!

John.5
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2. God the Son has no idea when He is coming back; that knowledge is reserved for another God…..God the Father

Mark.13
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


3. You can speak against the God the Son, but if you speak against the Holy Ghost it will not be forgiven.

Luke.12
[10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

4. The Holy Spirit has no idea when Jesus is coming back, nor will it judge man!

See Mark 13:32 & John 5:22 above!

5. Jesus prays to God the Father? Himself? Who?

Matt.26

[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

[42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Now let’s use the doctrine given to us by man, NOT God, and ask the following logical questions;

If they are ONE, how can the Son judge WITHOUT the Father and the Holy Ghost?

If they are ONE, how can the Father know the time and the hour, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son?

If they are ONE, how can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son?

If they are ONE, who is it that Jesus prays to in the garden before His death?

If they are ONE, who was God while Jesus was dead for 3 days and 3 nights?

If they are ONE, who raised Jesus from the dead?

Oh yeah…..I can really see man’s doctrine of “Being One” really coming together and making sense!

How about this? How about just reading the scriptures for what they are? Could the scriptures just mean that ALL (3) are ALL on one accord?

Let’s read what Jesus tells us, in His own words in John 17, just how it is the three are one!

And nowhere does He even come close to suggesting that (3) separate entities are of the same substance, or are for different dispensations or any such thing.

Let's study the following scriptures, use common sense, rightly divide the word of God and let the bible, not a man made doctrine, explain it!



Here’s how Jesus tells us the (3) are ONE!!

1John.5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Just how are they all one? Let's read how Jesus Christ explains it to us;

John.17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

We see from reading above Jesus (God) SHARING the Glory with the Father (God), even before the world. No mention of any other God; just God the Father AND God the Son. Let's continue;

[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So the Son is ONE with the Father AND all those that the Father has given the Son are ALSO ONE! So we too are ONE with God! But how? Let's read more. Let's see at what point Jesus mentions God the Holy Ghost

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

So the ones that God sent to Jesus are separated, or sanctified, by His word, the Holy scriptures. Let's read who else is sanctified by the word and made ONE with God;

[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

So now we read that EVERYONE that believes in the word/scriptures and brings the SAME message are ONE, just as the Father and the Son are ONE! Now let's read who brings the message of God;

John.14
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John.15
[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So the Comforter, also called the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, brings ONLY what was given to him. So if the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth brings the same message, he too is ONE with everyone that does the same.

Let's read an example of this from the scriptures;

Rev.1

[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So we have God the Father giving a revelation to God the Son; Jesus Christ.

This revelation was to be given to their servant; John, by an Holy angel or Spirit!. Let's continue....

[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

So what we have in the Book of Revelation is the word of God the Father, given to His son; Jesus Christ, who in turn gave it to the Holy Spirit, who then gave it to John, who wrote it all down.

So ALL of them are ONE; God the Father, God the Son, the Holy Spirit that gave the message to John AND John himself for writing down ALL that the Holy Spirit revealed to him!


So now when we read the following, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." it is much clearer.

This scripture IS NOT saying all (3) form into one, or that the Father is from one dispensation and the Son and the Holy Spirit from another. Nor does it mention anything about them being of the same substance or any nonsense like that. Nor is it a "Mystery" of faith!


The scripture simply means that EACH one of them, ALL (3) separate entities, have and bring the SAME message.

That is why it is possible for you to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son!

That is why the Father can know the time and the hour of Jesus return, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son!

That is why the Son will judge and NOT the Father and the Holy Ghost!

Because they are all individual entities; God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit/angel of God, not A God!

There is no ‘mystery’! This makes sense!



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[Eccl.12:13]

Let’s read some “FACTS” from the word of God, spoken by Jesus Christ Himself. Let's use just a little reasoning and rightfully divide the word of God, just as His word tells us to do.

John.17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

God the Father gave God the Son the authority to give eternal life to those the Father gave Him.

[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So this same Jesus was 'sent' by God the Father. I read (2) beings above; God the Father and the one He sent, Jesus.

[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus says that He shared glory with the Father before there was a world.

[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Jesus sure is NOT being vague here. He continues to say the Father, Himself and those that the Father gave Him.

[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

And what has Jesus given those that the Father gave Him? The 'words'. As a matter of fact, Jesus gave them ALL the words that the Father gave to Him. And what was it that they understood? That Jesus was SENT by the Father and that the Father indeed 'SENT' Jesus. Can Jesus be any more clear that not only there is God the Father and Himself who was sent by the Father, but also the disciples knew and was taught the samething.

[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And there we have from the mouth of Jesus Himself....Again...these (2) beings are ONE. But not only are they ONE with eachother...they are also ONE with those that God the Father gave Jesus. And how are they, we, ALL onw with the Father and the Son? Let's read.....

[13] And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Again Jesus tells us that He gave them God the Father's word, not His/Jesus word, but the Father's word. So God the Father gave His message to His Son, and Jesus, in turn, gave that SAME message to His disciples.

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

And they are to be separated by the word of God. And that word is truth.

[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Again Jesus tells us WHO it was that sent Him; God the Father.

[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

And what is the truth that separates those that God sent? His word.

[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus tells us He does only pray for those that God the Father gave Him...He also prays for those that believe on Him through their word. And what is their word? The words that they received from Jesus, which are the SAME words Jesus received from God the Father.

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And WHAT happens to ALL that believe on the words that the disciples give, which was given to them by Jesus, which was given to Jesus by the Father? They ALL become ONE! How clear and simple is that?

[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again Jesus tells us how He, the Father and ALL that believe are one.

[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And how is Jesus in them? His WORDS are in them. Remember when Jesus said in John 6, "[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [57] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. [63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And who was it that finally understood what Jesus was trying to tell them?

[68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

This is how Jesus is in them; His words are in them. And how is the Father in Jesus? His word are in Jesus. That is how they ALL are one. Can it get any more simple?

[25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Here Jesus tells us that the world has not known the Father? But what DID the disciples know? That Jesus was 'SENT' by the Father.


Now let's read of another that has a message, given to him by Jesus...


John.14
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now if the Comforter brings back to their memory the things that Jesus told them, and ALL of the things Jesus told them were those things that the Father told Jesus, that means that the Comforter is coming with the 'SAME' message as God the Father.

John.15
[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So the Comforter, also called the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, brings ONLY what was given to him. So if the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth brings the same message, he too is ONE with everyone that does the same.

So God gave His message to His Son, the Son gave the same message to His disciples AND told them that He would send someone else, the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth, and that he would remind them of ALL of the things that He originally told them. So ALL (3) are one! Wow....this is simple AND it makes sense!


Now let's see if we can read this same protocol elsewhere in God's word.....


Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


So what we have in the Book of Revelation is the word of God the Father, given to His son; Jesus Christ, who in turn gave it His angel, an 'Holy angel' no doubt, who then gave it to John, who wrote it all down.

Now based on what Jesus, not MAN, told us in John 17 are not ALL of these ONE? Of course they are. But they are ONE in the way Jesus told us they are one; they all have and bring the same message.

Now did Jesus tell us of ANY OTHER WAY they could be ONE? No He did not. But there is someone that did say the samething....

Rom.12
[5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Paul tells us we are one in the body of Chirst. And how are we ONE in Christ? Jesus told us in John 17

1 Cor. 3
[5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Paul planted, Appollos watered, but they BOTH had the same message.

1 Cor.10
[16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Again Paul tells us we are the partakers of ONE bread.....and that bread is Christ.

1 Cor. 12
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[25] That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
[26] And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
[27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So....did Paul say anything different than Jesus? One body...many members......ALL with the same message!



Now let's go to one more scripture.....


1 John 5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


First understand what the bible says the (3) are doing in heaven; they are bearing 'RECORDS'. They are keeping account, preserving, documenting, gathering information. And the bible says they are one.


Again....going ONLY with the word of God.....and based on what Jesus told us already in John 17 below...


"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."


What else can the scripture simply mean other than EACH one of them, ALL (3) separate entities, have and bear the SAME record.


Paul couldn't have warned better when he said the following....

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."



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[discipleHelovestoo]

When i look at the written word found in the King James Version (acknowledging that there are many 'versions' of the King James Version that differ slightly), I can logically see justification for the concept of the Trinity, and I can logically see justification against the concept of the Trinity. For example (and for the benefit of those who have not yet been made aware of this), the primary scripture people often use to justify the concept of the Trinity is 1John5:7:


1 John 5:7 KJVR

(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Consider this excerpt from Clarke's commentary:

begin quote:
1Jn 5:7

There are three that bear record - The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or Λογος, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following: -

"1Jo_5:6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc."
end quote.


debates over the meaning of scripture from the standpoint of intellect are endless; point and counterpoint based on different scriptures, word definitions, commentaries, doctrines etc. continue since the dawn of man on the earth - such debates cannot be settled.

my point is that if you look at scripture 'logically' - through the intellect, it is impossible to be certain of the true understanding of what God intends the scripture to communicate. Only though fellowship with Him can one understand His Living Word as reflected in the written word (regardless of the 'translation').

but from the standpoint of fellowship; from the standpoint of knowing God, i find that there is only ONE God; there is only ONE still, small voice that I recognize as I fellowship with Him and seek His direction. this is a concept that any child can understand:

Mark 10:15 KJVR

(15) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

yes, study the scripture; yes, word studies, commentaries, and other such resources can be helpful - but in all things be led by the thought-by-thought direction from God that only comes through fellowship with Him - otherwise, error is inevitable.

GLY!!! (God LOVES you!!!)

 

[veteran]

When i look at the written word found in the King James Version (acknowledging that there are many 'versions' of the King James Version that differ slightly), I can logically see justification for the concept of the Trinity, and I can logically see justification against the concept of the Trinity. For example (and for the benefit of those who have not yet been made aware of this), the primary scripture people often use to justify the concept of the Trinity is 1John5:7:


1 John 5:7 KJVR

(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Consider this excerpt from Clarke's commentary:

begin quote:
1Jn 5:7

There are three that bear record - The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or Λογος, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following: -

"1Jo_5:6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo_5:7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

1Jo_5:9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc."
end quote.


debates over the meaning of scripture from the standpoint of intellect are endless; point and counterpoint based on different scriptures, word definitions, commentaries, doctrines etc. continue since the dawn of man on the earth - such debates cannot be settled.

my point is that if you look at scripture 'logically' - through the intellect, it is impossible to be certain of the true understanding of what God intends the scripture to communicate. Only though fellowship with Him can one understand His Living Word as reflected in the written word (regardless of the 'translation').

but from the standpoint of fellowship; from the standpoint of knowing God, i find that there is only ONE God; there is only ONE still, small voice that I recognize as I fellowship with Him and seek His direction. this is a concept that any child can understand:

Mark 10:15 KJVR

(15) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

yes, study the scripture; yes, word studies, commentaries, and other such resources can be helpful - but in all things be led by the thought-by-thought direction from God that only comes through fellowship with Him - otherwise, error is inevitable.

GLY!!! (God LOVES you!!!)

Well said!

Per Isaiah 7, Immanuel was to be another Title for Christ. It means 'with us is God'. God also said in Isaiah there is no other Saviour but Him.

So how was it that God The Son Immanuel God with us was born in the flesh in a body like ours, yet without sin, and that He prayed to The Father in Heaven if He indeed is God too?

I think that's the pivot point many struggle with, the fact that God was able to come in the flesh, be without sin, and still show He is One with The Father, even while praying to The Father. Christ's act of praying to The Father was because of His temporary extension while in the flesh. It did not make Him any less God The Son.

In John 14:9, Christ Jesus was asked by Philip to show him The Father, and Jesus said if you'd seen Him then you'd seen The Father. That is a direct statement by Christ Jesus that He is The Father, even while He was in a flesh body.

In Isaiah 9:6, a description about Christ, He is also called there "The mighty God, The everlasting Father".

That's enough for me to know that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit are all One, and cannot be separated, not even by The Son being born in a flesh body like ours. His being born in flesh and being Perfect without sin proves all the more He is God, for only God could do that.

So WHY did The Father see the need to send His Son in the form of flesh man for His Role as The Saviour? That's the question that those who want to try and separate Christ Jesus from God as The Saviour should ask theirselves.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

I think that's the pivot point many struggle with, the fact that God was able to come in the flesh, be without sin, and still show He is One with The Father, even while praying to The Father. Christ's act of praying to The Father was because of His temporary extension while in the flesh. It did not make Him any less God The Son.

When Christ was here on earth He was fully Man. He was NOT a God while here on earth!


.

 

[theopoesis]

Greetings Eccl. 12:13!

When Christ was here on earth He was fully Man. He was NOT a God while here on earth!

Forgive a new guy for intruding on your discussion. I've seen several threads on this subforum addressing issues similar to these. I hope that you have not covered this too heavily elsewhere, and that you did not intend this discussion to relate to a specific person. But, I think I might be able to contribute some ideas to help clarify the question at hand. Was Jesus God while on earth?

First, I'd like to point to the clear teachings of the Epistles in the Scriptures:

Hebrews 1:3 is fairly clear on the matter. The "Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty in heaven." Thus we see that the one who is the exact representation of God's being is also the one who offered purification for sins. If Jesus was no longer the Son, the exact representation of God's being, how could Hebrews teach that this Son who was the representative of God's being is the one who offered purification for sins through the cross?


Colossians 1:9 is also clear on the matter: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." How could we say that the fullness of God's deity lived in bodily form if Jesus was not divine while he had a body?




Second, I'd like to point to the actions of Jesus recorded in the Gospels:


Jesus is worshipped (Matthew 14:33), but only God can be worshipped. Jesus forgives sins (Luke 5:20), but only God can declare sins forgiven (Luke 5:21). Jesus calls himself greater than the temple (Matthew 12:6), but the temple was the place where God's presence among the Israelites dwelled. What could be greater than that? The very presence of God Himself in bodily form, a new temple in his body (John 2:21).


How else can we account for Jesus' actions if he is not God in the flesh?


Third, I'd like to point to Jesus' own words:

John 8:19 - "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." How could knowing Jesus be the same as knowing the Father, if Jesus was just an ordinary person? No, Jesus must be divine.


John 8:58 - "I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" How could Jesus have existed before Abraham if he was not the Word that was with God in the Beginning, the word that was God (John 1)?


These are but the tip of the iceberg. The cumulative evidence of Jesus' words, his actions, and the testimony of the Scriptures is that he was God in the flesh, not just a human being but fully human and fully God.


Finally, I'd like to clear up a misconception you seem to have about the Trinity. The Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity suggests that God is one Being subsisting in three Persons. In other words, the unity between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an exact identity of nature and being, not an exact identity of person. You can discern the difference between the three persons of the Trinity based on their actions. Therefore, the Son can judge without the Father and Holy Ghost. The Father can know the day and hour when the Son does not. The Son can pray to the Father, and so forth.

Trinitarians do not deny the personal or existential difference between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity simply denies that the three are different at the level of being. Therefore, we see Scriptural claims such as "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being" (Heb. 1:3), and we see Jesus saying "God is spirit" (John 4:24). The Trinity is an attempt to make sense of both the diversity and the unity described in the Scripture. A trinitarian does not have to ignore the verses you bring up, but they can embrace them while simultaneously embracing the verses that point to unity. I do not see where your interpretations have done justice to the verses that point to unity, verses such as the ones I have raised above. Perhaps that will be a good point of study to help clarify this issue.

Good day to you,

theopoesis

Sorry I can't figure out how to get the formatting right. By bold is going a bit crazy, but the edits aren't helping. Anyway, best to you all.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

How else can we account for Jesus' actions if he is not God in the flesh?

Is it possible for a flesh and blood being to kill a spirit being?

If Jesus was God here on earth then He HAD to be a spirit being. God is a spirit! But then how does a flesh and blood being kill a God?

Jesus was a flesh and blood being while here on earth. He had to be...that was the only way He could make an atonement for our sins. If His blood did not shed we would yet be in our sins.

Let's read something that Jesus said, understand now.....you presented scriptures also that may appear to go against what these next verses says...

Matt.19
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14
[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Wait a minute here! Jesus said there is NONE good but one, which is God? But I thought HE was God and equal to Him. Not while He was here on earth.

And then Jesus said that the Father is GREATER than HIM? Yep! Because while Jesus was here on earth He was a flesh and blood being JUST like ALL men that were born before AND after Him.

So...are we NOT to believe these scriptures?

While Jesus was here He worked with the authority of God.

Just as some angels did when God sent them. The could save who they wanted and kill who they wanted because God gave them the authority to do so. Some OT prophets even thought some of the angels that appeared before them was God.

Jesus was God, became a flesh and blood man, then went BACK to being a God.


.

 

[Duckybill]

1. God the Father will not judge man, that job is reserved for another God…..Jesus!

How many Gods do you believe in?

 

[Eccl.12:13]

How many Gods do you believe in?

The ONLY two that are mentioned in the bible; the God that became know as God the Father, and the God that became known as the Son of God. There is no such thing as God the Holy Spirit!

God's spirits, ALL of them, were made to do His will, evil AND holy!


.

 

[Duckybill]

The ONLY two that are mentioned in the bible; the God that became know as God the Father, and the God that became known as the Son of God. There is no such thing as God the Holy Spirit!

God's spirits, ALL of them, were made to do His will, evil AND holy!

There's only one true God mentioned in the Bible. Lots of false gods though.

 

[theopoesis]

Is it possible for a flesh and blood being to kill a spirit being?

If Jesus was God here on earth then He HAD to be a spirit being. God is a spirit! But then how does a flesh and blood being kill a God?

Jesus was a flesh and blood being while here on earth. He had to be...that was the only way He could make an atonement for our sins. If His blood did not shed we would yet be in our sins.

Let's read something that Jesus said, understand now.....you presented scriptures also that may appear to go against what these next verses says...

Matt.19
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14
[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Wait a minute here! Jesus said there is NONE good but one, which is God? But I thought HE was God and equal to Him. Not while He was here on earth.

And then Jesus said that the Father is GREATER than HIM? Yep! Because while Jesus was here on earth He was a flesh and blood being JUST like ALL men that were born before AND after Him.

So...are we NOT to believe these scriptures?

While Jesus was here He worked with the authority of God.

Just as some angels did when God sent them. The could save who they wanted and kill who they wanted because God gave them the authority to do so. Some OT prophets even thought some of the angels that appeared before them was God.

Jesus was God, became a flesh and blood man, then went BACK to being a God.

Hello Again Eccl.

I'd like to point out that there is a need for us to understand and address the whole council of God. In other words, I think it is best for us to look for an interpretation that can make sense of all Biblical verses. To that end, I do again invite you to offer an alternate explanation for the many verses that I included in my above post.

In the mean time, let me do my best to respond to your objections in light of patristic thought. The early church was very precise in its explanation of the doctrine of the hypostatic union. First, it suggested that Jesus was fully human and also fully divine. You are setting up a false dichotomy, saying Jesus could not be divine because he died as a human. The assumption is that Jesus was either human or divine, but patristic theology claims that Jesus was human and divine. You ask, "is it possible for a flesh and blood being to kill a spirit being?" To which I must answer, "It is possible for a flesh and blood being to kill a spirit being if that being has assumed flesh."

I fully understand that Jesus had to be a flesh and blood being while here on earth, but I believe that I have demonstrated that he was, Scripturally, also divine. Furthermore, to make atonement, Jesus must have been human and divine for several reasons:

(1) A Sacrifice Must be Made: Only humans owed a debt to God. Thus, the substitutionary sacrifice had to be human. But since all humans owe God their entire life anyway, no human could pay for other human beings' sins. But God did not have to die, so when the Son died in the flesh, he fulfilled the obligation of humanity while simultaneously offering God something of infinite worth to pay for other humans' sins.

(2) The Covenant Must be Fulfilled: The covenant had obligations on men and on God. Since all had sinned, all broke the law and fell short of the covenant. But Jesus was a sinless human being, fulfilling humanity's aspect of the covenant. God had promised an eternal ruler on David's throne, and a blessing for the nations through Abraham's descendants. How was this fulfilled if not through the divine Savior who brought all nations to God through a perfect sacrifice, and who rules eternally as the eternal one?

These are just two examples, but in truth the entirety of Christian theology is built on the hypostatic union: the simultaneous divinity and humanity of Jesus.

Finally, the verses you point to:

Matthew 19:17 is a rhetorical question, common in Jesus' ministry and in ancient dialectical thinking. (Paul uses it frequently in Romans, for example). It is not a firm statement that Jesus is not God. Rather, it is an invitation to the reader/listener to decide whether Jesus is Good and God, or neither. But if Jesus is not God, I challenge you to explain how we are saved.

John 14:28 points to the doctrine of the kenosis. The hypostatic union claims that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. However, in the incarnation God the Son restrained himself and did not make use of his full divine power in order that his human life might fulfill its purpose. Only after the resurrection did he resume full use of his powers through the exaltation of the resurrection. This self-limitation is the logic of Philippians 2, or 2 Corinthians 8:9. This does not mean that Jesus stopped being divine (the Scriptures teach otherwise). Rather, it means that Jesus, as God, did not use his divine power and authority, but rather submitted to the Father as his master as if he was only a human being. But we must remember, the same Jesus who said the Father was greater also said that those who see Jesus see the Father. How do you make sense of that?

Now, let me ask you a few questions:

(1) What alternate interpretation do you offer for the verses which claim Jesus was divine?
(2) How was Jesus our savior if he was not divine?
(3) How does a God stop being a God to become a man? Isn't God changeless and eternal?
(4) And if God is perfect, wouldn't giving up his godhood be a move toward imperfection, meaning that Jesus wouldn't have been sinless?

Blessings to you,

Glenn

 

[aspen]

God has to be three in One for Christianity to remain monotheistic. Belief in the Trinity is the dividing line between Christianity and nonchristian faiths. Belief in God being in one accord is consist with LDS doctrine. In fact, all heresy starts with a distortion of the true nature of God