Are You a Carnal Christian?

[GodsGrace]

A carnal Christian believes one must do good work BECAUSE we are saved (not as a means to obtain salvation). The motivation is totally different.


The overly-spiritualized Christian don't know if they're better off being ruled by Atheists or Satanists in this word rather than Christians. The overly-spiritualized are hyper-grace and take no responsibility for justice in this world. Sure, they'll pray that their neighbor gets food or justice be done but won't lift a practical finger to make it happen.



I'm clarifying the terms.


That's because your terms are incorrect. That's why I use the term soulful. The overly-spiritualized falsely hold all things of the body are fleshy and sinful. Because your terms are incorrect, the question of the thread is invalid. I am a soulful Christian and repudiate the overly-spiritualized Christian. That is the contrast. See thread on the reasons for the Crusades.

Wrangler...you know full well that if we do not agree on the meaning of a term...
it will be impossible to debate it.

Others on this thread do understand the meaning of CARNAL CHRISTIAN.
If you don't agree to it -which is your right - I'm afraid the discussion ends here.

(plus you're bringing up a new term: soulful Christian)

And you DO have gnostic beliefs mixed in.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I'd say that an overly spiritualized Christian is neither a nominal Christian or a Carnal Christian.

I THINK what you're speaking of is a Christian that believes "works" or good deeds are not necessary for salvation.
I meet a lot of these here on these threads.

Maybe we could call them Workless Christians??
The current term is Faith Only.

IOW all one needs is faith.
If the next door neighbor is hungry - too bad.

Yes. You're changing the terms.

To ME:
A nominal Christian is what you've stated. They participate in rituals, they might be saved (no way to be sure -we're not God)...IOW...they are just barely Christian.

A carnal Christian is a Christian that is still operating under "the flesh", or "the sin nature", or "the world".
I believe a carnal christian is a contradiction in terms....
one cannot be carnal
and
be a christian.



The second person in your paragraph, to me, sounds like a faith only Christian.

The person at the beginning of your paragraph is a type of christian that sounds like he's doing his best....which would be neither a nominal Christian or a carnal Christian.
(or I didn't understand).

I see works as not to do with ones self ! but Christ Jesus in you is the works ! it's not me who does the works but Christ in me, who is the works. As I do not give any regards for myself in such but that the glory is given to Christ Jesus !
So I can not boast of anything, for all of the glory is given in regards Christ Jesus.

Carnal people think that one is working for their salvation ! as if it's ones own works ? how stupid ! as that is only a Mans works ego trip.

People at Church think giving money is the answer ? no it's in regards you that is in regarding Grace in dealing with others that is the main. for where Grace abounds their is Jesus ! the workings of Salvation abiding ! that's the Key to a Holy Nation.

I see Gay people wanting to rule over everyone in fact to demand they are right and God is wrong ?
It's the same with Abortion on demand people who in fact rule over everyone nowadays, so one can not even question such things ! for fear of such Laws !
Just as it was with Hitler and Stalin they ruled totaly over everyone, with all living in fear to question such a one, who is demanding to be Idolised in fact !

I make no demands on people that what they say is any of my business nor do I demand anyone what to do.
Stand over people are an abomination !

Ask and you shall recieve ? if Grace abounds. One is happy to serve for the common good of all. but when trash demand their own way because they are the problem well I say No. because such is the wagers of Sin.

What carnal people do is make demands, because that's the only way they can think of ! for they lack Grace in fact !

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

No one can master the devil, except God and he shall do so at the proper time so do not try, these verses mean for you to master your own emotions, sinful desires and not satan.

to master your own emotions, sinful desires is difficult, it is Why GOD/Jesus promised to send us the Holy Spirit to help.

One masters the workings of the Devil's workings, as one understands such issues. that's called mastering what comes your way ? Carnal people are not worthy of mastering such, for they are to weak to deal with such things to understand.

Mastering your own emotions as you say in being difficult, is such regarding one who is not Saved.
Such is easy to deal with when one is Saved. Tempted in a way could be so, but one is glad when you did not take such up and when such temptation come again, then you are even stronger and less tempted, because you have a Grace given pride of such strength !
Like boy am I pleased that I could not be tempted ! as that strength is likened to as say money in the bank say and it builds up like intrest, so that one has built up more immunity to such things because you know such is truly evil !

 

[Wrangler]

Others on this thread do understand the meaning of CARNAL CHRISTIAN.

you're bringing up a new term: soulful Christian)

Carnal has a negative connotation that soulful doesn’t. Since you keep talking about terms, how about you define the terms in your argument?

So far, you argument is circular. My opponent is wrong and her language of the argument is wrong. Then you invoke Appeal to Majority - Others on this thread do understand the meaning of CARNAL CHRISTIAN - in an attempt to escape your circular reasoning.

For that matter, how about you state your argument? I’ll state mine:

1. Much of Christiandom has become over-spiritualized.
2. This has made Christiandom irrelevant in the public square of how society makes practical decisions.
3. This irrelevance is to such an extent that many Christians don’t know if they are better off being ruled by Atheists and Satanists!
4. The over-spiritualization of Christiandom is orchestrated by Satan in fulfillment of Scripture in paving the way for his rise to power in this world.
5. In the alternative, is to be a soulful Christian. (Some use the pejorative, carnal. Carnal is a term with negative connotations. The connotation is everything to do with the body, with the flesh, with the world is sinful). A soulful Christian honors the facts that God gave us a body and soul. Attending to the needs of the body and the body of Christ is NOT sinful. Over-spiritualized Christians are sinning by ignoring the needs of the body, of believing tending to these needs is beneath them, taking away from their worship of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Others on this thread do understand the meaning of CARNAL CHRISTIAN.

Soulful attention is balanced throughout Scripture. From today's devotional reading:

Matthew 4:23-24
Jesus Ministers to Crowds of People

SPIRITUAL: 23 Jesus[a] went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom

SOULFUL: and curing every disease and every sickness among the people.

SOULFUL: 24 So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought to him all the sick, those who were afflicted with various diseases and pains, people possessed by demons or having epilepsy or afflicted with paralysis, and he cured them.

Notice how much of the text is devoted to soulful considerations? Today's Christian's not only have no balance, they really only talk about the Spiritual part, which is contradictory to Scripture as you can see. Because he was effective at addressing their soulful needs FIRST, they were open to the validity of his Spiritual words.

 

[Lambano]

I ran across the term “soulish” on another forum when another user accused me of “soulish-ness”. It wasn’t a compliment. It’s derived from the Greek word psuchikos, literally meaning animated by the breath or by the soul, and is contrasted in 1 Corinthians 15:44 with pneumatikos, meaning animated by the spirit or spiritual. And yes, there is a sense that the life powered by the breath or soul (the words are the same in both Greek and Hebrew) is inferior to the life powered by the spirit. Even though the Bible has a lot to say about how we live our breath/soul powered life.

 

[Wrangler]

And yes, there is a sense that the life powered by the breath or soul (the words are the same in both Greek and Hebrew) is inferior to the life powered by the spirit. Even though the Bible has a lot to say about how we live our breath/soul powered life.

And there is the sin! The pride that comes from supposing one part of our body (or body’s animation source) is better than another. It ALL comes from God.

The foot NEEDS tending to even if deemed ‘inferior’ to the hand, etc.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

But being carnal means being of the world...
and a Christian cannot be of the world.

Christians can go back to the world and become corrupt as in not being in right standing with the Lord anymore.
If they don't forsake their sin and confess it to the Lord to be cleansed they will sadly go to hell.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

 

[GodsGrace]

Christians can go back to the world and become corrupt as in not being in right standing with the Lord anymore.
If they don't forsake their sin and confess it to the Lord to be cleansed they will sadly go to hell.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

Yes sir.
Plenty of verses stating that a believer can go back into the world and become as lost as he was prior to his salvation.

Peter 2:20, which you've posted, is an excellent scripture regarding this.

Unfortunately, OSAS had entered into the Christian dialogue and this teaching is heretical and not biblical and is probably driving many to become lost due to lack of commitment to Christ.

Some pick and choose which verses they like and ignore the rest...
the entire NT MUST be reconciled to itself so that the theology is solid and every verse can be explained properly.

 

[mailmandan]

Christians can go back to the world and become corrupt as in not being in right standing with the Lord anymore.
If they don't forsake their sin and confess it to the Lord to be cleansed they will sadly go to hell.

Don't confuse "nominal" Christians (1 John 2:19) with genuine Christians (God's saints) who are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) and eternally secure in the hands of Jesus Christ (John 10:27-28) and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sows to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Make believers who are not His sheep walk away. (John 6:64-66; 10:25-26; Hebrews 3:12-19; 10:39; Jude 1:5)

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

Context. Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness... 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Through general revelation in creation, man can see God's eternal power and divine nature in the world, but can suppress this knowledge, failing to glorify Him or give thanks, which results in foolish, darkened hearts. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness.. THESE WERE NOT CHRISTIANS. 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

In regard to 2 Timothy 2:12, I see a contrast with, "if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

"By contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" points to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he remains faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, "He remains faithful," faithful to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Some pick and choose which verses they like and ignore the rest...

They learned this from the false teachers.

So many don't study God's Word for themselves and think just because someone is a famous preacher that must mean they know what they are talking about.

 

[GodsGrace]

They learned this from the false teachers.

So many don't study God's Word for themselves and think just because someone is a famous preacher that must mean they know what they are talking about.

Right.

And others study scripture ALL ON THEIR OWN and get a lot wrong.

Works both ways BB.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

And others study scripture ALL ON THEIR OWN and get a lot wrong.

Only those who don't have the Holy Spirit.

Unless you'd like to argue the Holy Spirit is not a capable and effective Teacher.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only those who don't have the Holy Spirit.

Unless you'd like to argue the Holy Spirit is not a capable and effective Teacher.

I guess VERY FEW have the Holy Spirit then.

He sure is doing a terrible job otherwise.

We have discussions on these boards regarding the belief that Jesus is not God.
And yet they believe they are Christian and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

 

[Wrangler]

We have discussions on these boards regarding the belief that Jesus is not God.
And yet they believe they are Christian and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

Not sure what one has to do with the other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure what one has to do with the other.

Two points:

1. I'm told the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.
So why do we not all believe the same truth?

I've found a solution for myself - but we each must find our own.

2. A Christian, by definition, must believe that Jesus is God.
If a person does not believe Jesus is God...he is following a different Jesus not the one of the NT.

 

[Wrangler]

1. I'm told the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.
So why do we not all believe the same truth?

Because claims of what the HS is guiding people to believe as true is false.

Imagine the authority one assumes by claiming the HS guided me to this conclusion? Have you been personally guided by the HS? I have. His guidance to me was not doctrinal.

2. A Christian, by definition, must believe that Jesus is God.

Manmade definition of manmade doctrine, which I reject. By your construction, one can be a "Christian" in name while not following Christ! A Christian, by definition and Jesus' command is to follow the will of God. Matthew 16:24
If any of you want to be my followers ...
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Maybe this is what makes me a soulful Christian (or "carnal," as you put it). The criteria is not abstract or subjective. Anyone can claim they believe anything. It's just meaningless words if not backed by objective action.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because claims of what the HS is guiding people to believe as true is false.

Right!
So how could we know who is correct when there is an opposing view?

Imagine the authority one assumes by claiming the HS guided me to this conclusion? Have you been personally guided by the HS? I have. His guidance to me was not doctrinal.

Agreed.
The Holy Spirit guides us to God.
Doctrine is learned.

So WHO gets to decide whether or not OSAS is truth?

Manmade definition of manmade doctrine, which I reject. By your construction, one can be a "Christian" in name while not following Christ! A Christian, by definition and Jesus' command is to follow the will of God. Matthew 16:24
If any of you want to be my followers ...
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Maybe this is what makes me a soulful Christian (or "carnal," as you put it). The criteria is not abstract or subjective. Anyone can claim they believe anything. It's just meaningless words if not backed by objective action.

Agreed again.
IF Christianity is not defined then it means nothing because anyone can create their own meaning.

How is my construction creating false Christians?

If a person does not even believe IN JESUS,,,how could he possibly be Christian?
So belief comes first.

THEN we DO have to adhere to what the Apostles taught....
at the very least we have to believe that Jesus is God and that He was also a man - since this is what the NT teaches.
The definition has already been created 2 thousand years ago - it cannot be changed.

And I doubt you're a carnal Christian.
A carnal Christian is still OF the world...
he pays no attention to the teachings of Jesus.

You've mentioned Matthew 16:24 and Matthew 7:21,
this tells me that you are not a carnal Christian.

(which is a contradiction in terms).

 

[Wrangler]

So how could we know who is correct when there is an opposing view?

1st, this is the reason to have religious freedom. Thomas Jefferson said “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”

2nd, there are only passionate disagreements about that which there is little evidence for. No wars were ever fought over math.

3rd, each of us must decide in their own heart and mind what they believe is true about such things. Let's take something not too controversial. Suppose there is an opposing view that states the Bible does not begin with the words, 'In the beginning, God.' We can show them the evidence but if they don't accept it as true, we have to leave it there, don't we? That is, if we want to remain civil.

4th, there is an entire branch of philosophy dealing with how to know things and the limits of knowledge. Epistemology (which logic is a part). Galileo said he does not believe in a God who gave us a mind to forego its use. You might want to delve deeper into Epistemology. I suggest

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[GodsGrace]

1st, this is the reason to have religious freedom. Thomas Jefferson said “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”

2nd, there are only passionate disagreements about that which there is little evidence for. No wars were ever fought over math.

3rd, each of us must decide in their own heart and mind what they believe is true about such things. Let's take something not too controversial. Suppose there is an opposing view that states the Bible does not begin with the words, 'In the beginning, God.' We can show them the evidence but if they don't accept it as true, we have to leave it there, don't we? That is, if we want to remain civil.

4th, there is an entire branch of philosophy dealing with how to know things and the limits of knowledge. Epistemology (which logic is a part). Galileo said he does not believe in a God who gave us a mind to forego its use. You might want to delve deeper into Epistemology. I suggest

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

IF you're right Wrangler....
then there is NO TRUTH.

We would be free to fabricate our own truth.

In this case, the bible loses all meaning, theology loses all meaning,
and there is NO EPISTEMOLOGY becasue we can make of the Christian faith whatever we wish to.
Nothing to learn.

If Microsoft copyrighted Windows 3....
YOU are NOT free to change the program.

Ditto for Christianity.