Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

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Marymog

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Actually were not.

She's talking about salvation from sin.

I am saying they were never accounted for sin, so nothing to be saved from.

Catholics believe in baptizing infants for salvation
Nope, not talking about salvation from sin....Let's try this again.

Salvation is the deliverance from the power and effects of sin. Innocents have been delivered from the power and effects of sin thru grace.

You and I are delivered from the power and effects of sin thru "cleansing" (forgiveness) and baptism (Acts 22:16).

The disconnect here is YOUR definition of Salvation and the dictionary definition. You refuse to use the common definition. I shall remain a common woman....;)

Mary
 

CoreIssue

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Thank you BG.....I appreciate your input. You are a joy to hear from and have given me good advise in the past.

I agree with you that Coreissue and I are saying the same thing differently.

However, @CoreIssue said Salvation means one is cleansed from sin one is responsible for. That is NOT what salvation is. Innocents (ex. infants who never sinned) have NO SIN so there is nothing to cleanse from them. Infants still obtain salvation. They obtain salvation thru grace, not cleansing.

Great quote from C.S. Lewis....thank you. That quote has to do with persons that are at the age of understanding, reason and accountability. Infants and mentally challenged people don't meet those criteria however they still obtain salvation.

Respectfully....Mary
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number:
4991 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
swthriva feminine of a derivative of (4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Soteria 7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
so-tay-ree'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
  1. deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
    1. deliverance from the molestation of enemies
    2. in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
      1. of Messianic salvation
  2. salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
  3. future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
The definition is clear it means delivery from consequences.

If you are not accountable for something you cannot be delivered from it.

Romans 5:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Just look at Adam and Eve before that one law was given. And before the law of incest was given.

You keep pushing the definition of sin when the issue is accountability.

No infant or severely handicapped have the law.
 

Taken

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Well you have a problem.

No, I do not have a problem.
I have different understanding than you.

If married do you have faith in your wife?

Do you have faith your car start at any time?

Do you have faith you can pay your bills?

Do you have faith you are along with a certain amount of years on this earth and no more?

God increases our faith by giving us more reason to have faith.

Giving me examples of Secular faith, is not necessary. I fully comprehend a secular faith, confidence, hope, trust....and at any time that can change;
Unlike FaithFULLNESS a converted man receives from God...does NOT CHANGE.

People who never repent and walk away do not lose the ability to have faith.

People who never repent and walk away, and HAVE NOT BEEN CONVERTED...HAVE lost faith. Can they AGAIN resume hearing, learning gaining measures of Faith? Sure, AS LONG AS THEY ARE STILL LIVING.

They simply stop exercising the ability.

They simply choose to Walk away from being enlightened, believing, and receiving measures of "SPIRITUAL" Faith from God.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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It was you who tried to make faith and belief different.

Yes. Because they ARE DIFFERENT.

Belief is the Willing ACT of a man.
Faith is a GIFT from God "for" the mans Belief.

But my equation simply expressed what is in the Bible -- faith is belief and belief is faith.

Okay, the equation was your view.

I Disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Marymog

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The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number:
4991 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
swthriva feminine of a derivative of (4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Soteria 7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
so-tay-ree'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
  1. deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
    1. deliverance from the molestation of enemies
    2. in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
      1. of Messianic salvation
  2. salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
  3. future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.
The definition is clear it means delivery from consequences.

If you are not accountable for something you cannot be delivered from it.

Romans 5:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Just look at Adam and Eve before that one law was given. And before the law of incest was given.

You keep pushing the definition of sin when the issue is accountability.

No infant or severely handicapped have the law.
Your welcome.....
 

Taken

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Salvation is forgiveness of sin.

Eh, no.

Forgiveness is a pardoning of sin.
Salvation is Saving of the mans soul.

An innocent is not accountable for person, so there's nothing to forgive.

You are advocating some people are born Holy, without sin. That is in error.

Those without the capability to Reason are forgiven for being born in sin and corruption of their soul.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

CoreIssue

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Eh, no.

Forgiveness is a pardoning of sin.
Salvation is Saving of the mans soul.



You are advocating some people are born Holy, without sin. That is in error.

Those without the capability to Reason are forgiven for being born in sin and corruption of their soul.

Glory to God,
Taken

No I'm not.

As the Bible says, until you know it's sin is not sin. That would include what you should know is sin.

Infants and mentally handicapped do not know.
 

Taken

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No I'm not.

Let's see how that works.

As the Bible says, until you know it's sin is not sin. That would include what you should know is sin.

Again you say, if you do not know, it is NOT SIN.

So, if a person is born NOT KNOWING God, and you say that IS NOT SIN....

What does that mean OTHER THAN you are teaching People are BORN WITHOUT SIN?

Gory to God,
Taken
 

CoreIssue

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Let's see how that works.



Again you say, if you do not know, it is NOT SIN.

So, if a person is born NOT KNOWING God, and you say that IS NOT SIN....

What does that mean OTHER THAN you are teaching People are BORN WITHOUT SIN?

Gory to God,
Taken

People are born with sin nature. They have no sin until they commit sin they are accountable for. Just being is not a sin.

Before you said born holy. That means set apart for God, which they are not.
 

prism

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This is like saying a cat can reject being a cat. Believers are believers according to their new nature. Just as a cat is a cat, and wants to be a cat according to it's nature.
But unbelievers aren't saved until they repent and believe...they remain unbelievers according to their old nature.
 

Taken

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People are born with sin nature. They have no sin until they commit sin they are accountable for. Just being is not a sin.

I Disagree with how you dance around with your words to explain and conclude your position.

Every earthly person is conceived in sin and born in sin.
Every Saved Person is Forgiven their sin.
A Person incompetent to reason to come to the Lord God, is Forgiven and Saved BY His CHOICE.

Pss 51
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 9
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion onwhom I will have compassion.

Before you said born holy. That means set apart for God, which they are not.

Every Born Again man is spiritually born again holy, which is what Sets a person apart.

they are not

Who are "they"?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

prism

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I knew no other Christians and was raised Catholic so did not have any guidance on spiritual rebirth. I had sought God: "Ye shall seek me and find me when ye search for me with all your heart." I didn't know what happened to me, but I began being able to understand the bible, when before it made no sense. I also experienced a time of the veil being removed and I could see that I was a sinner - not this good person I thought I was. Then I was out at a store and someone had left the booklet "Steps to Christ" there and I took it home. It explained spiritual rebirth; God used it to show me that's what I underwent.

So to answer your question, I guess I believe because God saved me. Scripture says that no man can come to the Father unless He draws them.
How would you handle this verse?...

but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (Joh 20:31)
 

CoreIssue

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="Taken, post: 536957, member: 7756"]I Disagree with how you dance around with your words to explain and conclude your position.

Every earthly person is conceived in sin and born in sin.
Every Saved Person is Forgiven their sin.
A Person incompetent to reason to come to the Lord God, is Forgiven and Saved BY His CHOICE.

Pss 51
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 9
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion onwhom I will have compassion.

Every Born Again man is spiritually born again holy, which is what Sets a person apart.

I am dancing around nothing.
The problem is how you're trying to frame the issue.

People are not conceived in sin. It says the marriage bed is holy.

You really need to to stop using the KJV.
Hebrews 13:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

If it is not Pure and the child is conceived the sin falls on the man and woman, not the child.
Psalm 51:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

As I said everyone is born with sin nature.

Romans 9:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”a]">[a]

The Verse does nothing for your argument.

The born-again are made holy. But we are talking about those who were not accountable for sin.

Adam and Eve sinned before God gave them that one law.

Once they they understood they were naked that was wrong. But it not a sin prior.

The children of Adam and Eve committed incest, but it was not a sin.

The children Noah committed incest but it was not.

Same with others in the Bible until Mosaic was given.

But even then those who had no access to Mosaic law didn't sin.

A lot of things Mosaic law are not signs under law of conscience.

You really need to rethink all this.
 

Taken

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I am dancing around nothing.

People ARE NOT conceived in sin.

Psalm 51:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Surely I WAS sinful at birth,
Sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

You really need to to stop using the KJV.

You really need to Learn the Difference Between Scripture saying "I WAS", and YOUR PREACHING "ARE NOT".

You are QUOTING YOUR Preferred VERSION of Scripture, and THEN PREACHING THE OPPOSITE....

Good grief man, Stop telling me what VERSION of Scripture I must use...

You can't even AGREE with the VERSION of Scripture YOU use!

THE PROBLEM is NOT MY PROBLEM.
IT is NOT ME you are disagreeing with;
IT IS Your own Chosen Version of Scripture;
YOU in your own words, DISAGREE WITH.

THAT ^ is your dancing around!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Soverign Grace

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How would you handle this verse?...

but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (Joh 20:31)

That's a good question - I had to look the context of the verse up:

John
Chapter 20


1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.

4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.

5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.

6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

~~~

Scripture is speaking of the signs that Christ did, and saying that they were written that we might believe. But Scripture elsewhere in John 6:44 states:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

You asked a tricky question that may not have an easy answer. Scripture states that we can't come to Christ unless God draws us at the same time that we're told that we're given these signs so that we believe and I cannot readily explain that.

I've learned that there are some concepts that I cannot grasp just yet, and I've learned to put them on a shelf until God chooses to open up my understanding to them. "Now we see through a glass darkly..." And I've had a lot of things that I have questions about. But I've also learned to have faith even though I don't fully understand everything because I know that deep within my spirit that this is the truth. I recently had a family member ask me why I don't believe that Buddhism is true, or one of the other religions, and it's because of multiple reasons, but one of them is that I sense that it is truth.

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
 
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Dave L

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But unbelievers aren't saved until they repent and believe...they remain unbelievers according to their old nature.
But they must believe (be saved according to Jesus) before they can do anything stemming from faith. Even "choosing to believe" is a result of believing by grace, or they would not choose to believe, as unnecessary as it is, since they already believe.
 
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